about being nice and respectful to all board memebers

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Posted By: davidcycleback

We've had some intersting, heated and informative debates recently. Both sides obviously feel strongly about their positions, and both sides have offered readers worthwhile information. I think each board member or lurker can read what has been posted and form his or own opinion.

My personal opinion is that it would be nice if all posters and readers were respectful of each other and not insult or belittle people on a personal level. It is fine to disagree and even strongly disagree, but I dislike people inulting others, such as call them names.

Realize that we are all here because we collect kids' toys-- bubblegum cards, felt pennants, bats for a kid's game. If any of us saw collectors of barbie dolls or beanie babies having the kind of cut throad lawsuit threats arguments that sometimes happen here, we would laugh our butts off at how sily they are acting. "They're friggin' beanie babies. Get a life!" Realize many non-collectors would have the same reaction over the heated and personal debates that happen over a baseball card that little kids collected in 1909. "It's a friggin' trading card. My 5 year old grandaughter collects trading cards. Get a girlfriend, or at least go outside and get some sunshine."

I have a temper as much as anyone and I've sure I say naughty things from time to time. However, when I look back on what I said, I usually feel silly and ashamed. So if anyone feels that I have been too personal, I will be the first to say that I acted poorly and that I am sorry, and I will go outside to the park and get some sunshine.

So remember that we are collecting kids toys, and that we can make our arguments and have disagreements while being respectful and without insulting others.

As Elaine said to George Castanza, "It was only a big salad."

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

.....just because we collect kids' playthings we shouldn't act like children?

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Posted By: Anonymous

AMEN.

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Posted By: PASJD

Well said David.

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Posted By: Mark Holt

Well said. This board has been and hopefully will continue to be the best place to get good information on pre-war baseball (with the occasional hockey tidbit thrown in). I enjoy it a lot and have learned a lot.

I try to skip over the personal attacks but they seem to have increased. I'd guess we all get plenty of stress at work and certainly look to old cardboard and sports equipment as an escape from that. Here's hoping we get back to fun......

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

Being nice is nice.

However, we have had a mild invasion of trolls recently, people who like to provoke reactions without revealing their identities. They're bombthrowers who crave attention, which they won't get here as their posts will be deleted.

Bill

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Posted By: Julie

David
said, too.

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Posted By: Elliot

Gosh, Darn, I'm agreeing with David.

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Posted By: Judge Dred

It's one thing to debate an issue or a point but to respond with a disrepectful and/or inappropriate response adds no value to a posting.

Rodney King said it right - can't we all just get along...?

There's nothing wrong with a little playful banter and fact reinforcement but the garbage just seems so "middle school."

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I would like to apologize to Joe and Aaron who I have some major disagreements with and have replied with ad hominems. I will try my best to not let it happen again.

Dan

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Posted By: Brian C Daniels

probably people who claim they will never,EVER,never again post on THIS board!

Just a guess!

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Posted By: barry arnold

i had been incubating and reflecting on the frenzied sometimes merciless
threads arriving lately and feel much better hearing the serenity offered
by David and others.
a great board, which knows how to heal itself.

best

barry arnold

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Posted By: Little Lee

Guys,

If you think what you read here, in replies to posts is bad, it's no where close to the private emails I recieved from a member, in reguard to my, treatment of newbies post.

The high light of the exchance, was when I was told I couldn't have been in the service, because if I would have been, one my own guys would have shot me.

Which hit close to home seeing, I'm a 100% Disabled Veteran.

Little Lee



"Of all the things I lost in life, I miss my Mind the most" "Smith's Law, Murphy was and optimist"

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Posted By: barrysloate

Interesting, because in a different post I too was being attacked for being nice to newbies (which seems like a reasonable gesture since we were all new to the hobby at one point). Was it the same person, Mr. tobacco-r-us?

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Posted By: Since When Is

Quote by Mr. Clean:
"Interesting, because in a different post I too was being attacked for being nice to newbies"
*
*
Are you rewriting the chain of events?
Now you're becoming laughable.

BTW, as an ex Marine Korean War Veteran, I would never disrespect Little Lee.

Now how about telling us about some of your SNL war stories Sky King?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Hey Joe- Do me a favor and take your medication and chill out. You are starting to give everyone the creeps.

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Posted By: Anonymous

.

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Posted By: Aaron

Bill wrote: "However, we have had a mild invasion of trolls recently, people who like to provoke reactions without revealing their identities."

Hmn, interesting characterization of "Vikes", I assume?

That "troll" simply make repeated factual information that was publicly and independently available.

Essentially he detailed:

1. SCDA and its individual authenticators commonly practice conflict of interest by authenticating and selling the same items they own. This is not in dispute and has been publicly admitted to by SCDA.

2. SCDA and its individual authenticators commonly conceal conflict of interest when authenticating items they consign to auction houses. This is also not in dispute and has been publicly admitted to by SCDA. In fact, this admission precipitated a new "reform" policy by SCDA as posted by SCDA on this site on January 29, specifically to address undisclosed conflict of interest

3. Dave Bushing included on his bio as listed on several major auction sites that he had "a Master's degree." Bushing admitted that he does not, in fact, have a Master's degree and the mention has since been deleted from MastroNet, among others.
4. SCDA violated their new "reform" policy by including an SCDA LOA in the current Vintage Authentics auction for an item owned by the Director of SCDA.

As to the "elementary mistakes" on the part of SCDA that Vikes mentioned, that information was published in the New York Daily News, and is also, obviously, publicly available.

In fact, other than correctly uncovering Bushing's discrepancy on his resume, you could certainly accuse Vikes of unoriginality as he was simply repeating information that was revealed, reported on, and admitted to elsewhere. (A fact which leon even conceded in initially resisting Lee and Jay's relentless lobbying.)

As to "provoking a reaction", I suppose that is an accurate description.

Vikes precipitated a negative reaction on the part of Jay and Lee Behrens because he made them look foolish for being so easily manipulated by SCDA's "wining and dining". Because they were unable to refute any of Vikes staments (which even Lee--while accusing ME of lying--admitted Vikes had merely "spinned" the truth), Jay and Lee took a different tact and tried to question his motives because he was posting under a generic user name and publicly and privately campaigned to silence him--which they were finally successful at (all of "Vikes" posts have been deleted and he will not be allowed to post until he reveals his identity).

While this might seem like a legitimate complaint, one must be reminded that Robert Planich was recently sued because of his criticisms of SCDA, so whoever "Vikes" is, was understandably concerned that he might become a target of SCDA legal action in a similar attempt to silence him.

In terms of positive reaction, Robert Lifson, one of the most respected members of our collecting community and head of one of the highest regarded auction houses in our collecting community obviously saw enough sense in his staments, to amend his own auction rules in order to stop the practice of undisclosed conflict of interest.

Not bad for a "troll."

It's hard to argue in fact, that Vikes' impact, while threatening to Lee and Jay and their support of SCDA and its interests, was anything but positive. He uncovered a lie on Dave Bushing's resume and helped change a deceptive auction practice by SCDA at at least one major auction house.

For that, he was censored and banned.

David, yes, this is a hobby. Yes, it is extremely important to remember to keep our hobby in perspective (I have often been known to chalk up collecting disputes to "life's too short"), but there is unfortunately a matter of major concern among certain collectors of game used memorabilia because of questions of integrity, credibility and honesty at its "leading" source of authentication.

While most were content to either discuss the subject or simply ignore it, Jay and Lee turned the discussion into a rancorous debate based on their own personal biases that resulted from their "fact finding" mission. Taking that one step further, they silenced a fellow board member because they did not like his opinions.

Is that being nice and respectful to a fellow board member, especially one who had contributed so much in such a short time?

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Vikes066 did provide the board with interesting and useful informtation. From the posts I myself have learned things about the bat hobby that I did not know before. I also understand and appreceate that many of the issues and concerns (conflicts of interest, accuracy of LOAs, etc) are serious to bat collectors.

However, it has been a longstanding rule on this board that anyone who is going to accuse others of things is required to identify himself, even if only to the board moderator. This was the board rule long, long before Vikes066 ever posted. This rule applies to each and every person who posts or has posted on this board for over a year, and others have been banned for not identifying themselves. This rule was applied to Vikes066 as it has been applied to others.

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Posted By: jay behrens

ROTFLMFAO!!!

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Vikes could still be posting here anonymously if he would identify himself to Bill. As it stands - while he may be 100% correct in everything he says - We don't know his motives. Is he all about cleaning up the hobby or is he one of SCDA's competitors?

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Posted By: Aaron

Yeah, but Dan, if Vikes did that, then Bill would give Troy his contact information so Troy could call him at work and tell him to f*ck off, like he did to me this morning.

You can understand Vikes reluctance to go along with that.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

I have a feeling Troy already did that to vikes,Aaron

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

Bill would give Troy his contact information so Troy could call him at work

Actually, I didn't do this and wouldn't do it if asked, but don't let that stop you from making accusations.

Bill

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Posted By: Aaron

Thanks, Bill, as "identity" became such an issue this weekend, and Troy would not reveal to me where he got my phone number, I assumed it was you.

If you say it wasn't, I believe you.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Identity didnt become as issue this week,its been an issue for awhile around here when too many anonymous people made accusations and didnt back it up.Its definitely not a new issue and its one we thought was taken care of till just this last week.Its not appreciated on the forum and its very easily fixed

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Posted By: PASJD

Other than apparently cursing at Aaron, did Troy offer any substantive explanation for how the Starr jersey did not violate SCDA's policy?

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Posted By: jay behrens

The way it breaks down and the way I understand it is that if they are selling something privately at show, etc, they are not allowed to use an SCDA LOO. If the item is consgned to auction house or other 3rd party, then they can use the SCDA LOO, but the authticator interest in the item must be noted on the LOO. Troy's initial wording wasn't very clear, but this basbically how it works.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: jay behrens

How much do you want to bet that if Aaron's conversational style is anything like his posting style, that there is a lot more to the conversation that he had with Troy that he isn't telling us about.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Cap

Nice post David. I agree 100% and I'm glad you brought this up.

This has been happening a lot lately. The whole anger thing. It seems like every week there's a topic that rubs two sides the wrong way and instead of simply posting your opinion, people fail to walk away but instead start attacking the other party.

People I feel love to have opinions whether they are correct or incorrect (incorrect only in that they may not be qualified to understand that aspect of the business that doesn't concern them) but it gets out of control when words like 'stupid', 'clueless' and other words begin to show their ugly face and it begins a battle of who can get the last word in. In a debate like the Vikes case, who the hell wins? Who comes out a winner? Have we determined that?

"Knowledge is power" is what Gordon Gekko said in 'Wall Street' and that's why I come to this Board. I come to this board to further my education in the sports memorabilia world and discuss my passion, love and enjoyment of a 'simple collecting hobby'.

Cap



I can see that your head has been twisted and fed by worthless foam from the mouth-Bob Dylan

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Posted By: vikes066

a) No Aaron and I are not the same person.

b) No Troy did not call me and curse me out.

c) Bill never e-mailed me and asked me to "reveal" my identity to be allowed to post

d) All my FACTS were verifiable and not fabricated.

Respectfully (as always),

Vikes066

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Posted By: Cap

As I say this, Jay spurts out two posts about Aaron and I have a feeling Aaron is going to respond and then this post will be as ugly as the last one that I'm thankful Bill locked up.

Jay, was this necessary? Can't you let things go and move on? Three posts and none of it has to do with David's thread.

S.O.S BILL DO SOMETHING!!!!!

Cap

Why Can't We Just All Get Along- Rodney King

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Posted By: PASJD

I thought Jay was just explaining his understanding of SCDA's policy, it seemed factual to me.

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Posted By: Aaron

Nah, Jay (Curley), that was pretty much it.

When he called, I asked him repeatedly to tell me who gave him my phone number and he refused.

So, he got my phone number from someone (probably a friend of his at an auction house abusing our private contact info) who was not authorized to give it out.

He then said he'd like to talk like "humans" (which I interpreted to mean person to person as opposed to over the Internet) and I obliged.

He went through his reasons why he didn't feel what he'd done was a violation and I went through mine as to why I did.

We talked about the broader conflict of interest issues and what he was doing to address it.

I actually thought the conversation was going pretty well (or least cordial and civil), and then he became more animated as I became more quiet on the phone.

When I would not agree with him about the violation, he began to curse ("we work so ****ing hard") and I asked him calmly to stop cursing and then he exploded at me and said "**** you, you cocksucker."

I can't remember if I hung up on him or he hung up on me first, but that was it.

So, basically Mr. Upstanding Guy got my phone number without my permission, cold-called me at work and told me to **** off and called me a cocksucker.

I would suggest you contact him yourself. And maybe you can get him to tell you who gave him my phone number while you're at it.

I do like, how even when told your boy called me up at work and cursed me out, you still find a way to make excuses for him. You're just going to head right off into the ocean aren't you?

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Posted By: jay behrens

Well, my second post took Aaron to task for posting a one sided account of being cursed at by Troy. And Troy is in a no win situation with aaron, if he responds, he will more than likely call him a liar and tell him he doesn't ahve his facts straight and if doesn't respond, then he talk about how Troy is so ashamed of what he did.

Gotta love that win-win barcalounger.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Aaron

Pas, Jay wrote: "How much do you want to bet that if Aaron's conversational style is anything like his posting style, that there is a lot more to the conversation that he had with Troy that he isn't telling us about."

BTW, how is it that you are still posting when we don't know your name?

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Posted By: PASJD

Aaron do we know yours? My name can be readily ascertained from my email address; first name is Peter.

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Posted By: Aaron

Jay (Curly) wrote: "Well, my second post took Aaron to task for posting a one sided account of being cursed at by Troy."

Hmn, kind of like SCDA's one-sided account of the DiMaggio "streak" bat during the their demonstration?

Was I then justified in taking you to task for your one-sided account?

Jay (Curly), your ignorance and sheer lack of intelligence surprises even me.

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Posted By: jay behrens

someone come beat really really hard if I ever repsond Aaron again. The guy will never change his mind about anything, so it's pointless to even try and talk to him about anything since he is always right and will spin things to suit his needs.

Aaron, you go ahead and beleive what that we were all duped by SCDA and Mastro. All I know is that I have more knowledge about vintage cards and sports memorabilia than you could ever hope to abtain.

My name is Jay Behrens. I started collecting vintage cards in 1980. Was collector/dealer from 1983-91 and got back into the hobby a few years ago. My connections and contacts run long and deep in the hobby. Most of my knowledge, aside from actually handling the stuff comes for Ron Oser, Mark Macrae, Dick Dobbin and John Spalding.

Once again, if I ever respond to aaron agian, anyone that comes to National is free to give me a beating.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Aaron

Yes, Pas. My name is Aaron. Bill knows my last name. Doug Allen has known who I am for several months. Now Troy knows my name.

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Posted By: Aaron

Thanks, Jay. I actually take a certain amount of pride in not chnaging my mind about a subject simply because I'm told to **** off and called a cocksucker.

Anyway, I'm sure the board will quiet down if you stop insulting me (and lobbying to get Vikes' posts banned).

This topic is dead as far as I'm concerned.

Enjoy your buffalo wings.

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Posted By: PASJD

Then we don't know your name Aaron, although that is of course your right. Maybe this thread is getting a bit ragged, but I would be interested in hearing more about yours and Troy's substantive disagreements over the Starr jersey and SCDA's policy as I am trying to understand whether there is a meaningful difference or not between the situation where the authenticator is selling himself and where the authenticator is consigning, which I understand to be the distinction Troy is drawing.

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Posted By: Aaron

Well, apparently enough people know my last name for someone to give it to Troy so he could call me at work today. So maybe it's more of a question of YOU not knowing my last name, rather than "we".

As far as the substantive disagreements, you are more than welcome to contact Troy and hear the details from him.

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Posted By: Cap

Board,

Did I not call it?

If Jay keeps quiet, Aaron has no reason to say anything and this thread closes up in no time.

Also PASJD, it's a thread hijack with the original topic being a simple and thoughtful message from David about 'Civility' and 'Being Respectful'.

(sigh)

Cap










Why Can't We Just All Get Along- Rodney King

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Personally, I got a chuckle at how the thread turned. I once heard my mom say to a young couple, "Make sure you have girls."

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Posted By: Anonymous

.

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Posted By: jay behrens

The best line I heard recently was from a little girl, maybe 3 or 4, walking thru the mall with mom and 3 siblings. She looked at her mom and said "Mommy, will you have another baby. I don't like being the youngest anymore." I got a good chuckle form that.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.