Babe Ruth 1930's Advertisement Help

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Posted By: chris

Hello All,

Was hoping to get an idea of value on this piece. 12x16, all one piece, c. late 1930's. Thanks in advance...

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I have never seen a legitimate Babe Ruth Red Rock sign. Purportedly there are only one or two known posters. The tin signs, calendars and other items are all fantasy items.

Can you tell us where you obtained this sign?

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Posted By: Joseph

"Red Rock is the only soft drink beverage ever endorsed by Babe Ruth and posters were made of the endorsement in 1939. There is only one, perhaps two, original posters in existence today, and one is framed and mounted on the wall of its owner in Medina, Ohio."


If the sign is tin, it's a fantasy/repro item widely available. If it's paper stock, it's likely a fake or less likely an item that requires further investigation, given the pullquote above. from a Red Rock "fan site." If the poster is from near Medina, give me a shout.

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Posted By: chris

Thanks for the help so far...I have not acquired as of yet...it is paper of some canvas and attached to wood backing...I will try and find out some more info...it is not tin. Thanks again...

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Be very wary Chris. Babe Ruth Red Rock items are a favorite of the forgers. Good luck.

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Posted By: chris

Thanks for the tip again Dan...when did people start forging these kind of items?

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Why would someone frame a sign?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Baseball advertising items started being forged I would guess somewhere in the 1990s with the explosion of baseball memorabilia. Ebay made it easier to pass off fake items. Computers have made it easy for people to make their own little print shops and now we're seeing items that never used to be faked like "Fan for a Fan", Ty Cobb Candy, Babe Ruth Candy Bar wrappers, et cetera.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Most to all of the digital/computer reprints will have a multi color dot pattern throughout the whole sign. The original may have areas of dots, such as with the player image, but will almost always have large areas of solid color.

Those reprint tin signs may have areas of solid color, as the were professionally made-- however, they're metal and plentiful on the market.

For a Pre-WWII sign or poster, if you have a strong microscope and see dots of magenta ink in the multi color half tone dots, it's a reprint. Magenta is similar to a dark pink or purplish-pink. Magenta, as opposed to traditional blood red, for halftone color dots was used after WWII. Duly note that it should be an isolated dot of ink being magenta, rather than overlapping dots. Overlapping dots can create various colors (blue + yellow = green, for example), and it is the individual ink (isolated dot on ink) that must be magenta ... Similarly, if you see a halftone print with isolated (no overlapping) red ink dots, it's vintage, as red ink was only used Pre circa 1950.

However, from a practical standpoint, almost no Pre-WWII baseball cards and little Pre-WWII memorabilia has color halftone printing (multi color dots). I've seen Pre WWII magazine covers and inside pictures that are color halftone, but that's about it. So a multi color dot pattern on a 1910 baseball card or 1915 ad sign typically identifies the item as a reprint. If you find a Christy Mathewson Tuxedo Tobacco Sign and the print has a multi color dot pattern throughout the whole sign, it's a reprint.

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Posted By: Max Weder

David

I'm not sure I understand your question as to why someone would want to frame a sign. Is there something I'm missing that relates to authenticity?

Max

(who loves framing signs

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Posted By: Jimmy

sorry to say, but these are not rare or anything - most likely made to look old - advertising items are the worst - so many reprinted items in the hobby

It really is a piece that needs to be seen in person to try and authenticate and value

Take Care Jimmy

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Posted By: chris

Gentleman has received email confirmation from a couple of auction houses that it could bring 2-3k and appears legit from the scan...I am going to attempt to view in person and see what else I can find out...I was thinking it may be worth more than that amount, nonetheless....thanks again for your help

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Posted By: davidcycleback

If that's the scan that was sent, I doubt two of the big auction houses would say it appears authentic.

The reprint tin sign is 16x12, and almost all of these reprint signs (Ted Williams Moxie, Joe Jackson, etc) are about 16x12. It appears as if 16x12 is the magic number. And notice the Hunt's Ruth Red Rock sign was not 16x12. I do not know, but I'll wager that none of the original Ruth Red Rocks were 16x12.

The reprint tin signs have little holes in each of the corners, which would be hidden by a wooden frame.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

If that sign is legit and that's a big if in my opinion then I think it's easily in the $2-$3,000 range.

http://www.greyflannelauctions.com/showdetail.cfm?Lot=235&Search=

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Posted By: chris

David,

Do you have a link to the Hunt auction? It is not tin in material...it's cardboard.

Dan,
I agree, A BIG IF indeed...I am still trying to obtain from him to send to someone for verification before putting any cash on the table. BTW, was that one in the last grey flannel auction or how did you get that link? Thanks!

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Yes, that was in the last Grey Flannel auction. I don't know how Grey Flannel authenticates their items, but I would even be wary of the one they auctioned as being real. If they have someone like David on hand that knows the ins and outs of the history of the printing process and looks these items over very closely then I might be okay with it. I would never be comfortable paying that kind of money without reassurance.

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Posted By: Anonymous

And saying for the moment the one in the grayflannel auction is 100% authentic its in Excellant condition which obviously brings a lot more cash to the table then one in fair condition like above.

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Posted By: Jimmy

Chris,

If we can get an update that would be great, items like this need to be seen - pictures just are not enough - the item would be a rare piece and yes worth some money - I see the reprint type items all the time at antiques shops and even they are selling for 100.00-200.00

What a great find if it works out - advertising items can be tough - because of the possibility of reprinted cardboard

Jimmy

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Dylan, it's Babe Ruth and it's exceedingly rare in any condition (If it's real). It WILL bring at least $2-$3,000 - maybe more.

It's no 1930 Goudey Calendar Card, but still......

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Posted By: chris

For your help help thus far...It looks as though I will be able to have it in possession and then forward to an expert for verification and will keep you all posted..again, my chances are slim, but why would he tell me two major auction houses were interested? Yes, I know people lie, but it is not like this guy has a dozen more to sell or anything else similar...

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Posted By: Aaron M.

Chris, we here on the vintage memorabilia board tend to be more gentile than on the card board, but I will be blunt as to your last question: Don't be stupid.

Why would he tell you that "two auction houses were interested in it"? Because that makes it appear to suckers that (1) the item is legitimate, and (2) there is interest in the item so as to snatch it away from you during this very brief time that it is still available. Right.

This hobby is quite easy to navigate for those who are willing to accept the adage that if it's too good to be true it probably isn't. (Why do you think he is willing to sell it to you for less than you think it's worth?)

Don't be a sucker.

Oh, and did you ask him to forward the "e-mail confirmations" from the auction houses to you? If he sends them, call the people at the auction houses he was corresponding with and ask them about the item (you want to make sure he didn't send you bogus e-mails). If he refuses to send them, then you have your answer.

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Posted By: chris

All, including Aaron:
I really do not want to spend too much time on a response at your (Aaron) statement, but I do feel obligated due to the one positive and constructive comment/suggestion you did make. That of asking for emails from the auctions houses, which I did...

He forwared me two responses from major auction houses, both of which seem legit. In their statements, they mentioned a price range in response to his question, with one saying it looks real from the scan but they have to see it in person to verify.

I am sure you understand that from earlier posts on this thread, the scale tips in favor of a replica on this piece. I know that, but still feel it is worth a shot at exploring further, yet being realistic at the same time. Believe me, I will not be crying if found to be a replica...it really is not that big of a deal.

After I've received and forwarded to another source, I will then comment on their response to the piece. I want to say thank you again, and I've enjoyed the comments and help so far.

One other comment for Aaron: Where did I say that I was going to get the piece of ten cents on the dollar? He is not looking to sell for nothing, he does want fair dollar for it so long as it checks out.

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Posted By: Rick McQuillan

Hi Chris, I really hope that this item is real, but I am 99% sure that it is not. I have been burned on enough old memorabilia items so that I am very careful before I purchase an item. Most of the time it is better to forget about it and walk away.

I don't think that the seller is lying to you. He really believes that it is real, and he really NEEDS to believe that it is real, because he has time and money invested in the sign. He doesn't want to admit that he made a poor decision, and he doesn't want his reputation to be tarnished if he is a dealer.

If you found this at a flea market for ten bucks, then what the heck, take a chance. But if he is asking for $500 or $1000, then forget it and move on.

Good luck,

Rick

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Posted By: chris

Rick,

Indeed...it was purchaed at a flea market for $20 he said 15-20 years ago...so you never know...thanks for the response.

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Posted By: chris

Hi all,

I received this piece today, and from the initial glance it just did not look period. I truthfully have no clue really as to what to look for, but I dunno, it just does not look 70 years old.

It looks as though someone cut it from a magazine and applied it to a backing. The actual advertisement, if you will, is made of thin paper stock, thiner than a baseball card. Is that supposed to be?

Perhaps I am missing out on a real treasure, but, unless someone clues me in otherwise over the next 12 hours I will be sending it back to the gentleman.

Again, I feel he meant no harm as it was purchased for $15 at a flea market 15-20 years ago he said.

It appears to have a semi gloss finish and there are no multi-color dot patterns found. Just not sure, but will listen to your thoughts.

regards,
chris

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Posted By: Greg Theberge

For what it's worth, I saw this exact sign as a reproduction tin sign being sold at a low grade flea market this weekend. Seems to be about the same size as this sign. I would well imagine if they can print it on tin, they can do the same with cardboard.

While I confess to not knowing everything on period advertising, I have collected brewery advertising (many lithographs and advertisement signs) for the past thirty years and I can tell you this thing doesn't look right at all. There's a lot of fake crap out there, and there is definitely a huge difference in the period stuff. This is obviously a very bad picture of the sign in terms of it's resolution, but my guess is that if I saw it in person it would take me a minute to tell you to walk away from it as fast as you can.

I agree with Aaron, don't waste your money.

Good luck,
Greg

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Posted By: leon

Don't be modest. It would take you 3 seconds to tell......I received an uncut sheet of W512's a few weeks ago. I opened the package up and immediately said "oh SH**".....and returned it to a nice ebayer..We can all be somewhat fooled from scans but in person it's much easier to tell...regards

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Posted By: Greg Theberge

Oh, by the way, there's one of those dang tin signs on ebay right now...

http://cgi.ebay.com/BABE-RUTH-BASEBALL-RED-ROCK-COLA-5-SODA-Metal-Tin-Sign_W0QQitemZ300122095544QQihZ020QQcategoryZ35698 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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Posted By: RC

Greg

At least this one on ebay is not being sold as a period piece. I don't mind when they are upfront with a reprint or reproduction as there is a market out there for vintage type items.

RC

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Posted By: davidcycleback

It is my guess that the tin sign is not an exact copy of the original sign; that the
original art was modified and resized to fit the tin sign format. This would mean that
anything that looks like the tin sign is not an original, because that's not what the
original looked like.

As far as I know, none of these baseball tin signs makes an exact duplicate, or attempts
to make an exact duplicate, of an original advert. The tin sign designer modified, changed font,
resized and even added graphics. For one of the signs, the designer said he had to change
the original text font as there wasn't a modern equivalent available.

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Posted By: Greg Theberge

David,

While what you say could be true, I wouldn't generalize anything and say it is necessarilly true.

Yes, things can and have been modified (probably even the sign in question), but not always. Size is probably the most common modification above anything else.

There has been more crap on ebay that has been directly copied from items in our Beer collection from a book we co-authored a few years ago. (Hey, why not, you can even buy the book on ebay, what could be easier). I've seen prints, pins, clocks and T Shirts on there that I know were directly STOLEN from the pictures in our book. There was no alteration in font, or the graphics themselves. I know they are from our book as most of what is in there are the only pieces known to exist.

I'm also a little confused on your comment above about why one would frame a piece such as this. I don't understand why that would have any merit towards the authenticity of the piece that is framed. (although I do admit that the frame on the piece in question leaves much to be desired).

All the best,

Greg