T206 Herzog question

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Posted By: T206Collector

The front is not T206, am I right? GAI got it wrong?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31718&item=5114189903&rd=1

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Posted By: petecld

GAI got it VERY wrong.

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Posted By: brian p

The front of the holder mentions that it is a Piedmont back, and the back scan confirms this. I have to assume that this E96 card has been rebacked??? And this fact flew right over the heads of the plasticizers, who, when not finding a horizontal Herzog in the T206 listing, decided to call it that anyways.

Perhaps this is a standard grading company rule--when in doubt, throw up your hands and create an addition to the checklists.

Brian

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Posted By: Morrie

You know, I tried my hardest to find scans of other Herzog cards, and suspected it was a re-backed caramel card (I won it, btw), but couldn't find any images and was in a rush to get out the door. So I put in my bid, added an unnecessary snipe, and figured, if it was a re-back job, I could probably get GAI to refund my money.

Once I get it and take a look, I'll most likely be contacting GAI directly. Anyone have a recommendation on who to ask for?

thanks

Morrie

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Posted By: Anonymous

Try and sell it for a Premium! LOL LOL- I'm sure you would get a few takers.....

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Posted By: Morrie

I probably would (find some takers). I'll be more than happy just to send it back to GAI and have it off the market forever.

To me, this card was a no-lose. Either it's something cool and unique and valuable, or it's something that GAI would be buying back and destroying. Assuming I'm right about GAI, there wasn't any way I could go wrong even with a much bigger bid. Because now I know that this card will never again see the light of day -- and I feel pretty satisfied with that outcome.

Morrie

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Posted By: gdp

I would go directly to Mike Baker. You can email him direct from the GAI site.

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Posted By: Morrie

Thanks, gdp. I emailed Mike and heard back from him the next day (today, that is). As soon as the card arrives I'm sending it to them, they're going to crack it out and look at it, and if they decide they made a mistake (he quite properly didn't admit to any such thing without being able to examine the card, nor did I expect him to) they'll cover my ebay costs, plus what it takes to ship it to them.

Looks like it's all good, then...

Morrie

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Posted By: runscott

obviously it's an e96 re-backed with a t206 Piedmont back. I have heard arguments from collectors in the past such as "...but what incentive would anyone have to re-back a poor condition common !?!?!"

only one incentive - just to try and get away with it. We have also seen this with altered cards that were sent to GAI and SGC that had very little value (comparitively). The card doctors are just practicing and messing with your heads. It's really unfair that GAI is getting hit with most of this - some of the card doctors are incredible at their trade, or at least know others who are. Think about all the professional manuscript and art restorers out there who are more than willing to "doctor" a valuable card for the right price. Who are we kidding...

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

the PSA 2 "Drum" Cobb Red Port. that was briefly in a Mastro auction a few years back. You could even see some of the glue used on the back (coming through - making a brownish color to the back top left and middle left edge). Mastro finally pulled the card - don't know what happened to it (if PSA was honest enough or not to destroy the card). When I first saw the Herzog front (before seeing the "Piedmont" back), I was hoping it was only mislabeled, b/c I was going to try and pick it up for my caramel back collection. Then, instead of an E96 back, it had that terrible Piedmont back!!!!!!!

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Posted By: Morrie

It's absolutely unfair that GAI is getting hit with this stuff, I agree. Hopefully, there won't be a lot of cards like this that slip through, since every one that does potentially costs them money.

Of course, there's a flip side. I'd never submitted to GAI before. Assuming Mike follows through and refunds what I paid for this card, I may have to give them a go.

If only they'd resolve that "slider" issue...

Morrie

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Posted By: brian p

To me it is not that a card grading company is being 'targeted', or what the motive of the individual who altered this card that is important, but that a card grading company both missed the fact that it had been rebacked AND that this back was from a completely different set. To a detractor of the card grading industry (such as myself)it is just another example that leads one to believe that these companies either have underqualified employees evaluating vintage cards (a trained eye would have noticed the E96/T206 incongruity instantly), or that they are probably only given a small amount of time to examine each card. Or most likely both of the above reasons.

To grade or not to grade...to each his own.

Brian

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Posted By: Judge Dred

Here's a link to an E96 horizontal Buck Herzog card being auctioned on ebay.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31719&item=5117363758&rd=1

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Posted By: Morrie

Well, the card came in the mail today, and it was a good news/bad news.

Good news is, it doesn't look like anybody intentionally re-backed the Herzog with a t206 - certainly not a modern "card doctor". It looks, instead, like there is a full Herzog card with a t206 stuck to the back of it, so if I could somehow get them apart (does the soaking method posted a couple weeks back work for getting 2 cards apart?) I'd have a low-grade e96 Herzog, and some unknown t206 with a piedmont 350 back.

I know the Herzog still has its original back, since there is a small hole in the upper left corner on the back of the piedmont card, through which I can make out the red "1" and "2" on the back of the Herzog. It was even obvious to my wife, when she examined the card inside the slab, that there were 2 cards inside.

So, I guess the good news is also the bad news.

I've so far gotten two opinions, both from people I greatly respect. One opinion was that I should just send it back to GAI and get my money back, since there's going to be damage to both cards no matter how I take them apart. I definitely see the wisdom in this. The other was that I should crack it out and roll the dice on the ultra low-grade t206.

Any advice on whether/how I should try to get the cards apart? Is it really worth 23.75 to get what would be a GAI 1 e96 Herzog and a GAI 1 (if I'm lucky) random t206? Or should I just take advantage of Mike Baker's generous offer and send it back to the company?

Inquiring minds...

Morrie

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Posted By: Morrie

Well, the card came in the mail today, and it was a good news/bad news.

Good news is, it doesn't look like anybody intentionally re-backed the Herzog with a t206 - certainly not a modern "card doctor". It looks, instead, like there is a full Herzog card with a t206 stuck to the back of it, so if I could somehow get them apart (does the soaking method posted a couple weeks back work for getting 2 cards apart?) I'd have a low-grade e96 Herzog, and some unknown t206 with a piedmont 350 back.

I know the Herzog still has its original back, since there is a small hole in the upper left corner on the back of the piedmont card, through which I can make out the red "1" and "2" on the back of the Herzog. It was even obvious to my wife, when she examined the card inside the slab, that there were 2 cards inside.

So, I guess the good news is also the bad news.

I've so far gotten two opinions, both from people I greatly respect. One opinion was that I should just send it back to GAI and get my money back, since there's going to be damage to both cards no matter how I take them apart. I definitely see the wisdom in this. The other was that I should crack it out and roll the dice on the ultra low-grade t206.

Any advice on whether/how I should try to get the cards apart? Is it really worth 23.75 to get what would be a GAI 1 e96 Herzog and a GAI 1 (if I'm lucky) random t206? Or should I just take advantage of Mike Baker's generous offer and send it back to the company?

Inquiring minds...

Morrie

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Posted By: brian p

I would keep and break out the card, with the assumption that the hidden T206 is Honus Wagner.

Brian

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Posted By: nickinvegas

Considering what you paid for it I would keep it as is, it's a neat little conversation piece. Pulling the cards apart would not really help the condition.

Nick

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Posted By: Morrie

You know, I wouldn't have laughed quite as hard at Brian P's comment if that hadn't crossed my mind for a split second, when I first saw that there were 2 cards in the slab. And you know, until the moment I crack the slab and slice those puppies apart, I really could have the world's only Piedmont 350 Wagner.

That, or a dead cat. I never did understand Schroedinger...

Nick, I actually like your idea better than either of the others I put forward. It is an interesting piece, probably unique (in a crappy condition, misgraded kind of way), and I'm not out much for it at all. I think that's what it's going to be, then.

thanks!

Morrie