Interesting N172 for sale on ebay

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Posted By: Judge Dred

There is an N172 Brouthers card for sale on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31719&item=4133448993&rd=1

Interestingly enough the seller is from Canada and the top three bidders (as of late night on 29MAY04) are all from Canada.

Does anyone know anything about the seller? If the seller is reliable I'd bid on the item - but then I don't want the hassles of dealing with some of our friends north of the border - I've had a few bad experiences already.

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Posted By: j.

.........

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Posted By: Lyman

Although this card may be legit, I would proceed with extreme caution. The seller has only been a member of eBay for three months and has only received feedback from 12 buyers--and non of these were for baseball cards (most were for car parts). Knowing that there are some very authentic looking N172 reprints out there, I would save my budget for a safer auction. --Lyman

PS: The outrageous shipping charge of $35 for an N172 should be enough reason to quickly move on to other auctions. --LJH

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Posted By: Joe_G.

I too am interested in this card but found a couple issues with the situation beyond what has already been mentioned. Most notably, the only other Old Judges he has are Anson & McCarthy (all his cards are HOFers). Also, most 1887 issued cards do not have that large of a border.

That is the last Brouthers pose I'd need so I may take a chance but I'm very skeptical.

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Posted By: Judge Dred

Wow, I read that item description and it seems pretty good....

"If PSA has any problem grading this card, we will gladly refund your money and take the card back."

"For your assurances we will take Paypal, money order, or other options if discussed prior to bidding. You are also welcome to come see the card, or if you win, you are welcome to pick up the card in person and pay then."

Wow - now that is a pretty good policy. The user name is registered to Canada but the area description states Buffalo/Niagara (US).

Perhpas this person is for real. In any case it almost appears that the seller isn't going to get as much for that card as an established/trusted seller would. I can't wait to find out if this seller is legit. If so, then I'm going to book mark this seller and hope that they have more....

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

Don't remember ever seeing it before and thinking he was holding anything but a bat. I also find the borders a bit large. But then, it's an Old Judge. I hope.

Yes, that is really warm, fuzzy writing....

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Posted By: Julie Still

this guy really sells a lot of car parts, with a sort of very side interest in baseball (including selling a ball with 28 PRINTED signatures on it). It's possible that the card is phoney and he doesn't even know it. If he's so conscious of grading, why isn't the card graded already? I see a couple of you bid early on--I wouldn't touch it myself--and I don't have an OJ Brouthers! (only N162 and Scrapps).

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Obviously the 26 bids lodged indicate a lot of interest and greed. probably the offer to inspect put it over the top. I hope for the winner's sake it works out.

Looks like a 5-6 if real; wonder what multiple of $1300 the seller left on the table by not having it graded. Stupid.

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Posted By: Joe_G.

I wound up being high bidder on this card. I took the gamble largely because I can pick it up in person and will give it a close look before handing over the money. The card will also be going directly to SGC, I'll share with the board my findings as he also has an Anson & McCarthy that will be sold in the same fashion. Will be picking it up next Saturday.

If it's legit, I'm very satisfied with the selling price, the card is very clean front and back with nice corners, just a bit light.

Joe Gonsowski

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Posted By: Judge Dred

Joe,

If the card is legit and clean as the picture in the item description then you've got one of the better bargains on ebay lately. I've got my fingers crossed for you. Hopefully an SGC84+

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Posted By: Julie

Like i said, I didn't like the looks of it, but maybe that's for some reason i haven't really discovered that has nothing to do with the card (!).

I think you and SGC will be able to sort of out fine, and has already been said, great pick-up, if it's legit.

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Posted By: J Levine

Joe, Let us all know how it turns out (great for you I hope).

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Posted By: steve k

Interesting seller - Within the past month he has sold a 1934 Goudey Gehrig PSA 6 with descriptive commentary worthy of baseball card knowledge. Interesting that the buyer of the Goudey Gehrig who always leaves immediate positive feedback for "everybody," didn't leave any feedback on this. The guy also sold a "high grade" ungraded 1952 Topps Berra. That buyer didn't leave feedback either. Then he recently sold a 1933 Goudey Ruth with commentary about Beckett. Seems as though he knows grading companies and the hobby very well. Wonder why he wouldn't get this Old Judge card graded? As some contributors to this forum point out, some of these reprints look very realistic even upon close examination. "Hopefully" he will honor that pledge to take the card back if SGC will not grade it.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

The last one like this I splurged on (also in my home state, so I could go after the guy if it was fake) turned out to be a legit S.F. Hess. Sometimes things are what they seem. Hey, a broken clock is still right twice a day...

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Posted By: Joe_G.

We are still planning to meet this Saturday to make the exchange in his home town of St. Catherines Ontario. I'm still leary of the situation. He strongly prefers money over cashiers check, money order, etc. explaining that out of country checks can take up to 30 days to clear. The only details he has disclosed on the cards history is that it was purchased at a card show and he'd need a floor plan to recall which dealer it came from.

On the flip side, he is meeting me in person for the exchange and again reaffirmed that I could return the card if it doesn't grade. I believe his other cards will be graded before hitting eBay.

Does anyone here know him?

User ID: deals4direct

Thank You!

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Posted By: warshawlaw

like a bank or restaurant. If someone you don't know knows you are carrying a bunch of cash, best to not go to his house...I've done deals at my bank for just that reason.

Also, bring a strong flashlight and a magnifying glass, and take your time scoping out the card. Regardless of what he says, I think you can kiss your $ goodbye if you hand them over and the card is fake later on.

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Posted By: Julie

Canadians will not hurt a fly (see Michael Moore, Ben Fisher).

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Posted By: jay behrens

They may not hurt a fly, but they have been known to punch a moose or two. Same goes for kicking beavers when close by.

Jay

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Posted By: petecld

Jay,

You've kicked a beaver?

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Posted By: hankron

Passing notes on international sellers ... Ben and Elliot may can offer better opinion, but I beleive it is a pain for Canadians to have their stuff graded by PSA or SGC across the boarder ... For the city listing on eBay, one picks the biggest city from eBay's list. Niagra, being next to the Canadian border, may be this seller's nearest city ... These days most international sellers and buyers use PayPal. But not too long ago, many international buyers preferred using $U.S., as they were often charged a ton for international bank checks and similar. Also most countries were happy to receive $US as payment (as opposed to, say, the Peso) ... With some regularity, I buy and sell to international folks-- mostly in Europe and almost always involving PayPal-- and have not encountered any troubles.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Pete, never kicked a beaver. I think they are cool. Saddly, the beaver that lives near my place got ran over by a car. Another one got ran over last fall, so I think that is it for the beavers near me They will be missed.

Jay

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Posted By: warshawlaw

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I do understand what turns Mr. Hand into Mr. Fist. I would not make an ideal prosecution juror in that trial.

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Posted By: Max Weder

On this thread, I wish to attest for the general overall niceness of Canadians. (However, due to our good education system, when we produce white collar criminals, we generally produce some good ones.)

The difficulties Canadians face in getting cards graded is that when the card is returned from PSA, it will have to clear customs (the Canada Border Service Agency, or as tax lawyers here call it: the Canada BS Agency). If the collector has not cleared it with customs on exporting it out of Canada, he will have to pay a federal value added tax of 7% (GST) on the fair market value of the card, plus a provincial tax (PST) in most provinces. If he does report the card to the CBSA, he still will have to pay GST and PST on the increase in fair market value of the graded card (versus the card ungraded). [The thought of customs officials appraising the fmv of baseball cards is somewhat amusing to me]
It doesn't matter whether the card is mailed or the Canadian physically imports it at the border, the tax is the same.

On the other hand, it is very frustrating for Canadians when many US ebay vendors won't ship outside the US. It sounds like a NAFTA violation, but the act is too thick for me to read.

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Posted By: Julie

"old photo=cards " (true, actually), or "phoptograph--do not bend." Maximum value, $5.00. Even when it's going Fed Ex! So far, so good. Oh yes, "scond-hand book" (that it took me a year to find!) amd "used DVD" (that was brand new and cost a FORTUNE--lord knows why!). I figure enough money has already changed hands for this thing' Why should Canada or any of its provinces get in on the act?

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Posted By: Max Weder

The GST at the border is a very fair tax, as it treats both Canadian importers and retailers equally; that is, they both have to charge the 7% GST tax.

The irksome thing for many Canadians is that a parcel with a value over $C20 that is delivered by mail is subject to a surcharge of $5.00 by Canada Post to collect the GST. Thus a $25 item attracts not only $1.75 GST, but a $5.00 charge to collect the GST. This is a reason why many Canadians close to the border prevail on their friends to have parcels delivered south of the border(Seattle is just 2 hours down the road from me).

That said, the tax applies to new cards, old cards, trimmed cards and PSA cards, not to mention old books. Perhaps it's the price we pay for nearly free health care. US vendors should take care in properly declaring items at the border, as incorrect (or even false) declarations can cause delays and even seizures of the item.

Max
(too many years as [former] counsel for the Canadian tax authorities--hey you never know who lurks on these lists....)

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Posted By: Julie

works as wewll as an hinest declaration of value that will cost recipient another $60?

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Posted By: warshawlaw

have asked me on more than one occasion to lie about the content of packages, which I will not do in the post-9/11 climate of fear created by Governor Bush and his band of merry men. My view is that if Canadian buyers want to purchase across the border, they have to be prepared to deal with their own government's policies towards trade. What happened to this NAFTA thing anyway? Or did that only apply to cheap Mexican imports that kill off our jobs?

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Posted By: runscott

I couldn't find a "Vintage Baseball for Bush Haters" forum, but this one looked like it might work for you:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/142834

The following isn't about Canadian trade or politics, but I recently received two T3 reprints from Mike Wheat. I'm curious if anyone who has received any of these would pay $9.99 (or more) each for additional ones. Don't worry, I'm not creating any.

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Posted By: Julie

that if they are caught, they can (once) talk their way out of it, and if not, all they have to do is pay the customs tax on what the customs (amusingly, as you point out) decide the value is. Recipients (there's NO tax going OUR way, of course, malgre Bush and his merry men--now missing a CIA director, I understand)cannot be forced at gunpoint to say that a ragged Texas Tommy (no, my stuff has NEVER been caught; that's just an example) is really worth more than $5, because they can always say, "I didn't pay more than that, and as far as i know, it isn't worth more than that."

Package should be wrapped APPROPRIATELY, not like "a Cadallac" (well-known dealer), but firmly, of course. hard, as thin as possible, and not elegantly. The customs people once stopped a FedEx package of mine--i think for inspection--but then sent it on its way without further disturbance.

Lie early and often to governments!

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Posted By: Julie

reprints (that's Mike Wheat, not Michael Wentz): I was very happy with mine, but it is just barely obviously not an original (texture and tint), and if I hadn't been looking for a year for a real one, I would not have bought it. I can't imagine buying more, since I have a bunch of real ones, and, if I should happen to find a real "Chief Myers at Bat," reasonably priced, I would buy IT as well, and forget the other (or leave it in my collection for comparison).

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Posted By: Julie

is TERRIBLE--what is all this $5 stuff?

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Posted By: Julie

...

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Posted By: Albie O'Hanian

Anytime a package is stopped and opened at the border a $5 handling fee is charged. They must also have a price guide because I have had a few items charged based on the "book" price. However, they are usually pretty good about refunding some of the money when you prove what you actually paid for the item on ebay. Either way it is very time consuming and costly. Usually not worth the aggravation of complaining. If you ship to the grading companies via an authorized dealer you avoid the border fees.

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Posted By: Tom L.

I used to rant on about this on the Full Count board, but there are a lot of problems with dealing with Canadians if you have a problem. First, if you get screwed, you can take them to court in the U.S. But good luck trying to collect! (Ron Nickerson and his SOB son, Doug I think, family used to own World Wide Gum, don't trust them as far as you can throw them. Anyway, I won a judgement in a Virginia court for some cards I never received. Over $1500 that I sent to Nickerson, and never got my 1936 WWGs. Problem is, I couldn't collect without hiring a lawyer from a state with some kind of reciprocity agreement with Canada - I would have had to hire someone from California, or something along those lines. Bottom line is, I never got my money.)

Second, if you sell to Canadians and deposit a check in your account, even if the check clears, apparently that money can still come back out of your account if they subsequently file bankruptcy. Something about Canadian law that US banks recognize. I used to live in the Pacific Northwest, and a dealer once told me about what he had to do after getting screwed out of a multi-thousand dollar sale to a Canadian: he would set up a bank account just for Canadian customers, and as soon as a check cleared, he would transfer all of the money into another account. I guess they can get at the money in the account where the check was deposited directly, but they can't get at it in any other account of the American seller, and there's nothing they can do if the account has no money in it. [The dealer had around $6,000 taken directly out of his account without his knowledge because the buyer filed bankruptcy in Canada. The dealer didn't get his cards back, and he had no recourse whatsoever.]

Bottom line is, there are crooks on both sides of the border, and Americans definitely gets screwed when it comes to Canadian law.

Tom

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Posted By: bcornell

Interesting, at least to my eyes, how threads morph from one subject to another, in this case from a questionable (?) 19th c. card to the perils of shipping north of the border. Both worthy topics, I think.

Hoping that Joe G. will let us know how his Brouthers pickup goes. Color me skeptical on that card, but I really do hope it works out.

Re: Canada... I read an anecdote like Tom's and I wonder if it's worth the trouble, but in my (limited) selling experience, I think US sellers should offer to sell to CA. Let's encourage free trade with our NAFTA brethren, even when that might mean declaring polar-bound packages as "un cadeau" (a gift), remembering that they missed out on their own revolution.

To Elliot, Albie, Max, Ben and the other non-US folks - we're here for you, at a small S&H increase.

Bill

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Posted By: Julie

..Are you saying that a valuable p[ievce of merchandise casn be shipped to Canada, not subject to stoipping and inspecting by customs, by th4 simple asddition of "un cadeau" on the customs label--they always tell me at the P.O. to fill out the ERXACT contents and value. No "preswents" business.

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Posted By: Julie

...

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Posted By: George A.

Are you always in a hurry Julie?
Why not write a subject title everytime you post instead of typing a full message on the message title field - have you ever read about web usability?

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Posted By: jay behrens

George, Julie has already type an entire message in the title area before, so that's nothing new for her. Now she just needs to learn to use the edit functions and no one will know about her typos

Jay

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Posted By: Julie

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Posted By: Albie O'Hanian

Julie - To answer your question (I think) - even if you mark gift and the real value on the package the tax will still apply.