We have all made fun of PRO at one time or another, but

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Posted By: tbob

cards on ebay in PRO holders continue to get great prices.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Depends on what you call great. Not as good as the big 3.

And how many of these transactions are between the network of PRO sellers, puffing up the market will shill transactions?

I know: grassy knoll, etc....

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Posted By: slacks

Shoot, keep forgetting to ID myself...

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Bob, the fact that obviously trimmed PRO cards get sold at all is shocking, in my opinion. Nevertheless, a PRO graded card usually receives at auction the value of a PSA graded card which is two levels or more lower.

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Posted By: Nickinvegas

Tbob,
I agree with your observation. I will admit I have bought about 6 Pro graded cards. Only one of them has successfully crossed over to PSA. I wish that one had not crossed over because then I would not even consider gambling on purchasing them.

For example take a look at this card(I know, it breaks all of the rules for common sense to bid on this card):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2787228915&category=31718


To me it does not appear trimmed. Then again niether did the other six PRO cards I purchased. I guess that I am not good at spotting trimmed cards. Nevertheless the cards sell because many of them look good! Kinda like a Ferrari kit car. They look crappy to one snazzy to another!

Nick

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Posted By: Albie O'Hanian

The card might not be trimmed, but that does not mean it has not been altered in some other way.

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Posted By: Aaron M.

This is a PRO graded card and it is a private auction being held by a seller with private feedback. And you have already admitted that you've had five of six PRO cards rejected by PSA (how you ever bought six PRO cards is beyond me).

How many more red flags do you want?

It's this exact kind of greed over common sense lunacy (along with novice ignorance) that keeps these cards on the market. You think this will be the one in whatever PRO card to crossover to PSA and you'll have got a real bargain, so you disregard all the warning signs and your supposed collecting knowledge and bid anyway.

Sorry, but if you bid on this item, then you are getting exactly what you deserve and the seller is not to blame.

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Posted By: Nickinvegas

My situation is a little different than most. I am the co-owner of a card shop. I thought about it and I have probably purchased more than six Pro graded cards. I have seen I would guess atleast 200 cards come through the door. My point is that I see more than most so I have probably bought more than most.

The part of your post that I did not like is:

"so you disregard all the warning signs and your supposed collecting knowledge"

I am not sure where you are coming from with that comment. My knowledge is not supposed, I am less knowledgable than a few on the board but I can hold my own. I love the game of baseball and I love the hobby I have been in for over twenty years.

I would never bid on an auction that was for a Pro card,private ect. without being able to pay via paypal. It is for me a safe circumstance. I can see all of the red flag's and I am driving right through them, but I have a safety net.

I have certainly made card purchases with a higher degree of risk.

The 'supposed knowledge' comment was rude and perhaps you should think before you write.

Regards,
Nick

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Posted By: Julie

crossover from PRO to PSA in your experience--might be PSA's mistake, not PRO doing something right! Speaking as someone with only about 20 cards' worth of PSA exerience, I've found the proportion of those cards with faults that PSA obviously missed to be alarmingly high (about 50%).

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Nick, I think his "dis" was really out of frustration. It's maddening to see these PRO graded cards getting sold at all. I posted an auction for a 56 PRO 10 Mantle last week that had such a curved bottom that it looked like it was cut with those small scissors you used in kindergarten--and the card went for almost a grand. Topping it off in your case is the seller with the private feedback and the private auction. Stevie Wonder can see why the seller would do such things. Combined with your acknowledgement that your PRO cards don't don't crossover and come back as "evidence of trimming", well...you get the picture. I remember when I came on this board last year for the first time and had no knowledge at all of the grading companies as I had always bought raw cards. I was about to buy a T206 Nap Lajoie (throwing) in PRO 9; I asked for some advice and was told that PRO grades trimmed cards routinely. That was enough for me and I have never bought one. The point is...with all respect, your brain sounds like it's being overpowered by your addiction to the card even though you know it's wrong. Kind of like a crack addict. Here's another rough analogy: if this was a dog lovers' board...we'd all be upset if you posted here that you just bought a dog from a puppy mill. You know?

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Posted By: Kenny Cole

that there is a huge difference between someone buying a PRO graded card with full knowledge of what that might mean and a novice with no idea doing the same thing.

Nick isn't stupid. He's as knowledgeable about cards as most. He's taking a calculated risk. It may work out well, it may work out poorly. Time will tell. In any event, telling him he must be stupid for taking the risk is, itself, sort of stupid. It simply means that you are looking at the holder, not the card. In my view, people with "supposed" card knowledge should know better than to do that, whether the holder is PRO, GAI, PSA or SGC.

While I agree that there are problems with many, if not most, PRO graded cards, I can't believe anyone would claim that every card they grade is bad. Nick, if you decide to get it, I hope it works out.

Kenny

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Posted By: Anonymous

"that there is a huge difference between someone buying a PRO graded card with full knowledge of what that might mean and a novice with no idea doing the same thing."

Yes, the one buying the PRO card with full knowledge is intentionally doing something irrational (sorry, but true), while the unknowing novice is simply a victim of fraud.

"Nick isn't stupid."

He's bought six PRO cards, five of which have been returned by PSA because they were trimmed, yet still wants to gamble on another one. And I don't even think this is a gamble. How he ever got one card successfully crossed over is a minor miracle. I consider it intentionally throwing money away and purposefully supporting some of the fraudulent activities in the hobby.

"He's as knowledgeable about cards as most."

Then act like it.

"He's taking a calculated risk."

Why? Why take a "calculated risk"? Is this a supremely rare card he may never get another chance to own?

No, it's a nice card that if (however remote the possibility) successfully graded would be worth a lot more than he paid for it.

But it's okay, if it doesn't grade he'll just go back to PayPal? How much time and energy will that take? What if PayPal doesn't protect him? What if a feud with the seller escalates? What if negative feedback results? Why put yourself through this for a few extra dollars?

And why should the seller be held accountable if the buyer knew ahead of time that the card was in all likelihood trimmed?

The buyer knew what he was getting, so why should he be entitled to a refund?

Because it turned out the buyer was wrong and his attempt to swindle the seller right back failed?

Come on.

That's not a calculated risk. It's the "I'm smarter than the fraudulent seller" mentality that allows vaguely described reprints to be sold to buyers who think this might be the one time that the seller really did find the card in an attic and didn't know that he had an authentic card so I'm going to buy it for a song, have it graded and come back with a super-valuable authentic card.

Perspective, please.

If these are the experts, then please act like it.

"Supposed knowledge" means exactly that. I assume anyone able to find and participate on this site has at least average collecting knowledge.

So my assumption in my initial response to Nick was that he DOES have collecting knowledge, not that he doesn't.

It becomes "supposed" knowledge however, when someone claims to have knowledge and then acts in a manner that would indicate he doesn't.

Maybe the other poster was right and it's an addictive quality and he can't help himself, but I don't think this is a practice that should be encouraged by other collectors.

And if it is and if they do, then as I originally said, it's the buyer's fault.

"It simply means that you are looking at the holder, not the card."

Yes, it means I am looking at the holder of a company widely known and acknowledged as fraudulently grading trimmed and otherwise altered or reprinted cards on a regular basis.

Maybe we should also cut NASA some slack because those ripped out and cut up magazine pages really might be a valuable collectible afterall?

I'm sorry, I know I sound rude here, but the level of my incredulity is pretty high. I mean, why am I even having to write this post to collectors (and dealers) who claim to be experienced?

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Posted By: Kenny Cole

Dear Anonymous, who I imagine is Aaron:

It sure is comforting to know that you've got it all figured out and that you and only you know how and where Nick should spend his money or, more precisely, where he shouldn't spend it. Are you perhaps a stockbroker or financial advisor? If so, maybe I should transfer my account to you since, with your keen insight into all things financial, there is no way I could ever lose.

With respect to your righteous indignation, disbelief, incredulity or [insert descriptive word here] that anyone would have the audacity to disagree with you on what you seeminly perceive as a black and white issue, spare me. I've heard the same rant a million times before and it has become boring and tiresome. Go practice a grimace in front of the mirror or something. Then use it on someone who cares.

I don't buy PRO cards because I personally don't think that the risk/reward factor justifies it. In that regard, I agree with you. However, my choice not to buy PRO cards is just that - MY choice. If Nick feels differently, that's fine too. You see, he also gets to choose. Last time I checked, you weren't the one in charge of all things baseball card-related. "Nuff said.

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Posted By: TBob

I have seen trimmed cards resting comfortably in PSA holders also. The point I was trying to make was this: as Leon and others have said time and time again, "buy the card not the holder." I agree with Nick that if you spot a seemingly nice undoctored card in a PRO holder and want to give it a shot, knowing that there are a higher percentage of doctored cards in PRO holders than in any other major company's slabs, sobeit. Although not technically a "cross-over," I popped a very tough card out of a PRO holder a few years ago and submitted it to SGC where it came back graded, even though a grade lower.
The Chance card on ebay, IMHO, is a little scary. Unlike others on this board, I believe it IS trimmed, but since I am collecting a master set of E94s all players in all colors, I buy first and then try to upgrade later since some color variations of players are next to impossible. I wouldn't buy a T206 Cobb in a PRO holder but I have bid on this Chance card for the reasons stated above.

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Posted By: Nickinvegas

This is almost not worth responding to but I will try to respond to AAron's post.

First of all let me say that I think trimming any card is a crime. Especially a vintage card.

A trimmed card automatically becomes a low grade card, regardless of it's appearance. I base my bid on that. As most know I collect Chance cards for my son. When I have the opportunity to purchase or upgrade I usually do. My bid on that auction is much like Tbob's bid. If it is trimmed it will serve as a filler.

In answer to the addiction statement. I guess I am addicted to this hobby. But it is, as my Ma says a 'good addiction'.

I think you brought up the paper cut out cards of NASA to bolster your point. That has nothing to do with this discussion. You must have a pretty weak argument if you need to depend on insults and stating things that have nothing to do with the debate.

Again, I think you need to work on your people skills...

Nick

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Posted By: Aaron M.

The above anaonymous was me--I forgot to enter my name.

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Posted By: Aaron M.

Kenny Cole wrote:

"I don't buy PRO cards because I personally don't think that the risk/reward factor justifies it. In that regard, I agree with you."

What else is there to say, Kenny?

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Posted By: Aaron M.

Nick:

Like I said, I'm sorry if my posts sounded rude, but you came looking for feedback, so I gave it to you.

I've seen some incredibly ridiculous behavior on this site over the last couple weeks.

From a guy who has spent the last year and a half of his life obsessively trying to get a dealer to refund him $184.00.

To another guy who understood 100% what a PRO card was and didn't bother checking the seller's feedback or transaction history (which definitely showed that the card he was buying was previously listed as raw, trimmed, rejected by PSA card) and STILL bid on it with five minutes left (because he thought he was going to get a deal) and then wanted to back out of it.

Now this. Again, these aren't novices we are talking about. These are experienced collectors acting like knuckleheads.

I think if you buy the card, you are getting exactly what you are asking for. If the card comes back from PSA, then congratulations--let the gambling continue. If it doesn't, then I don't think you have any right to ask for a refund since you know exactly what you are buying ahead of time and were foolish to do so.

As to your candid comments about an addiction to the hobby and Kenny Cole's comments about self-richeousness, I think the two are tied together in this instance.

Throw common sense, rationality, logic, love and appreciation for the hobby, will power, perspective and priorities out the window.

Buying that card is like saying that your hobby has control of you. Knowing to stay away is like saying you have control over your hobby.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

shame on you.

cheat me twice, shame on me.

Cheat me five times...

"A fool and his money are lucky to get together in the first place"--Gordon Gekko

"Greed is good"--Gordon Gekko