Grading reprints

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Posted By: runscott 

If I create my own reprint set, will the major grading companies slab it?, for example: "2003 Old Judge Runscott Reprint". BTW, I printed off the first twelve today, all HOF'ers, and will be mailing some out for review soon. Leon - they came out better than expected, and there is no way in h*ll they can be mistaken for real, or altered to look real when in hand.

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Posted By: leon

Hey Scott,
Cool.....sounds like they look better than we thought they might (unless you thought they would the whole time ) As far as grading them I would have to give that some thought. At first I would say "no", and then, after seeing the other reprints graded, would think maybe "yes". Who knows....give it a try....later

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Posted By: runscott

Have you been eating at the "WAFFLE" House?
Yes, I was also able to come up with a production system that is more efficient than I had envisioned and the image reproduction worked out very well. I decided to make them larger than real Old Judges, but smaller than a modern card - the backing will probably include a dark layer that will further distinguish them from real o.j.'s. Probably no stats on the back, but a "stats" sheet included with each box.

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Posted By: runscott

I have created multiple sheets of these, experimented with various sizes and colors. I know some of you will have a problem with this, but you can tell they are reprints in most cases by the naked eye, the backing is a touch thinner, white, and textured, and the cards are about 125% the size of a real one. But to be sure there is not a problem, I will send sample sets to Jay and Leon.

The reason I have done this is because I personally wanted cards of all the pre-1900 players. I can't afford to buy them, and there are no high-quality reprint sets in existence. If it turns out that no one else has any interest in these, I will still slowly create a single reprint set of every OJ variation I can locate, saving the masters in case there is interest in the future.

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Posted By: halleygator

I want some royalties since you used the image of my "Commy Comiskey" card for your set!!

Wait ... even better ... HOLD BACK the Comiskey card from your Reprint set ...

and it will be SCARCE like Honus.

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Posted By: runscott

I only used images from the loc site, which according to them is totally okay - do you own the Commy from their site? I am not pilfering any images found on ebay or elsewhere.

But if anyone is interested in contributing images for the set, I would be extremely greatful - as you might guess, the scans have to be high quality (aprox 350 x 650, and clear).

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Posted By: runscott

I have modified the color on ALL scans to give variety to the set, and I've edited out "impurities", edges, and even replaced text with better examples from other similar images. I am also toying with the idea of a back-stamp for each card, possibly with a set serial number.

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Posted By: runscott

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Scott--In all honesty I hate the idea of more reprint sets. If you want to do this for yourself, great, but I would hope these would not be released to the hobby. If you insist on doing this I would mark the card's front to make it obvious that it is a reprint---like with a big "R". Obviously, these reprints will not fool the experienced collector. The person who will be ripped off is the novice and I don't think any of us want to see this happen.

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Posted By: Rich Jacobs

Scott:

I second Jay's comments. I think you must assume 100% that these will start showing up on Ebay as originals. I like the idea of having reprints, but they ought to be marked in some specifically identified way as such. A clear "R" in one corner that can't be removed without serious damage would probably do it, or stats of some kind on the back would too. But, it ought to be clearly identified, or else, as Jay points out, there's eventually going to be a lot of unhappy 19th Century collectors.

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Posted By: runscott

I will look into an inconspicous way of marking the front. Thanks.

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Posted By: runscott

Where do I get these high-quality reprint sets? How many cards are in them? Seriously, I have no need to duplicate someone else's effort.

On the other hand, mine will be clearly identifiable by the backing,larger format and print type, more so than any reprints already in existence, and mine will be much more expensive (I think) so why would a scammer buy mine when he/she could buy the cheaper ones that look the same or better in a scan, and are the correct size? Also, to re-sell mine they would have to be re-backed (too much work for a card that is way too big anyway). I assume that the scammers simply take a reprint and add a thicker back.

Jay - you have to remember, although you personally own almost every OJ pose in existence, most of us don't have access to more than a few cards. Is this good for you personally? obviously no. How about others in the hobby? Well, I don't know the answer to that. But I understand your position and I won't further inflame you by sending you any of the prototypes - although I really wished you would have taken a look at some of these in person before passing judgement.

After careful consideration, I have elected NOT to put a giant "R" on the front, but thanks for that well-thought out suggestion.

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Posted By: runscott

I thought some of you might have thought that one was a reprint, but one belongs to Hal and the other to the loc site.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Scott--You make the assumption that because the cards are oversized and the backings are different than real Old Judges that everyone will know they are reprints. I don't think that is true for novice collectors. The more reprints that are available the more people that will be ripped off. I have seen people ripped off with Fritsch's reprints (which have back text and are thinner) and the photographisc reprints of the 80's which are smaller and off color (Tbob bought one of these if I remember correctly).
If you want reprint cards for yourself make the reprints for yourself. If all you are doing is providing the images on the LOC site why can't people access these themselves if they have an interest? If you produce these without clear and obvious markings on the front of the cards you are doing a disservice to the hobby.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

A while ago I experimented with printing up stickers of my favorite scanned cards. That way there is no way anyone ever sees them as real cards. My kid loved the stickers, too.

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Posted By: runscott

then you are doing a disservice to the hobby, and the society you live in.

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Posted By: runscott

That sounds neat. Other good ideas are t-shirts, posters and mousepads, all available on ebay for various card issues. But I'm working on a reprint set.

At Rich's suggestion I am rubber-stamping the back of each card (just bought the stamp and it worked great), and also experimenting with adding an "R" to the front that clearly i.d.'s each card as a reprint without detracting from the image - I'm not sure this is possible to do without ruining the card, but I'm trying.

I realized before posting that some of the board members have a problem with any reprint set that looks good enough to be worth purchasing, regardless of the set that is being reprinted, but I took a chance regardless. I appreciate all suggestions, but I'm really looking for ideas from people who think that reprint sets have their place in the hobby, but who want consumers protected from themselves as much as reasonably possible.

BTW, Jay, why does anyone buy ANY card? After all, you can just go look at the images on the loc site.

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Posted By: Jimmy Leiderman

"...BTW, Jay, why does anyone buy ANY card? After all, you can just go look at the images on the loc site."

Have to agree a 100% with Scott

Great stuff, BTW count me in for a Harry Wright t-shirt mouse pad...

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Posted By: Ben

is if there was career stats on the back of each card. That way we get to learn about each player, while at the same time, the cards could be distinguished easily as reprints. Just my 2 cents...

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

Well, being something of a newbie to 19th century cards compared with most on the board and being one who collects the N172 Old Judge issue, I can say that I find that both Jay and Scott each have some good points. First of all, I understand Scott's position regarding availability of certain cards from the authentic N172 set. There are many players and poses that most of us simply will never own,whether due to scarcity or price and I can certainly understand the desire a collector may have to come as close to owning the real thing as they can, even if that means buying a reprint. However I also see Jay's point that there are already too many reprints and fraud is a HUGE problem in this hobby. Reprints have,unfortunately, to some extent played a role in that. Personally, I don't like reprints and I myself wouldn't collect them as I prefer the real cards, but I don't mind them being around so long as they aren't being sold fraudulently. I think that a reprint using some type of really difficut anti-fraud technology such as holograms, etc. is the best way to go, especially when you're dealing with cards as expensive as Old Judge. I for one think for one that buying a reprint set like this is nice for someone who can't get the real thing, but I'm not wild about the idea of new collectors using it as a reference point to see scarce poses for the first time. I don't know, honestly it's kind of a difficult arguement either way. It's interesting that Old Judge is the topic of conversation, because I have a thread I'll be posting later tonight about this very set and I expect to hear some very mixed opinions about my ideas.

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Posted By: RobertS

How about a line of text on the reverse that says: "For all of you clowns on eBay who claim not to know if cards you are selling are real or not: This is one is not!"

Just kidding...

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Posted By: RobertS

umm...I meant: "This one is not!"

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Posted By: runscott

Question - what do you mean by the following?: "I'm not wild about the idea of new collectors using it as a reference point to see scarce poses for the first time".

There are only two good resources I know of to locate good OJ images: the loc and Slocum's book "Classic Baseball Cards" (each shows different images). I only plan to create 1-2 cards of each player to begin with, and it won't necessarily be a scarce pose - it will be the best or most interesting image available (I already have the next 100 images picked out). Some of the loc images are of cards so badly damaged that I won't be attempting to use them. After I hit 200 or so it will take longer for me to accumulate good images to create cards. By that time perhaps some of you will be contributing, perhaps not. Or maybe I'll get bored and give up on it. But at the very least, there will be a single HOF'er set of 26 cards.

I would like my cards to be informational as well, but I haven't worked that end out yet - at minimum, a sheet will be provided with each run of 24, containing bios and/or stats. But I would prefer this info to be on the back of the card (maybe stickers?).

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Posted By: runscott

from a production standpoint. But I have found a way to print an "R" on the front of each card where it can be seen easily in a scan, but doesn't detract too badly from the front image. Also, each card will have a fancy backstamp (some kind of Victorian scrollwork thing that looks pretty good). I hope that's good enough. Player info - probably short bio and lifetime stats - will be included in the "pack" (already designed and prototyped) on a sheet of paper.

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Posted By: runscott

If someone starts trying to sell these as real, I will do everything in my power to make their life miserable, and I will succeed. I have already thought about this, and don't want to give anything away, but I think I can cover that angle pretty well. The goal, of course, is to make it too troublesome for anyone to attempt.

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Posted By: MW

"Runscott Reprint" has a nice ring to it.

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Posted By: MW

As long as the proper security precautions are taken, I think this endeavor is an extremely promising one. Runscott is right -- there's a noticeable dearth in N172 "master" reprint sets and I think the demand for such a thing is definitely in line with what the hobby could/would anxiously absorb.

The way I see it, N172 reprints are going to make their way to eBay and the Internet whether Runscott makes this set or not. Why not produce something (this set) where readily identifiable markings can be added? If implemented properly, I think this idea is a good one.

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

Sorry Scott, I got a bit off-track on my response with the "wild" comment. I think I was confusing my response with another Old Judge issue I have brimming in my head about N172 references. I think what I meant to say was that I would only be concerned that new collectors would view the reprints as being dimensionally accurate to the real ones, even though the reprints would be oversized or something like that. Have I been drinking? I don't remember where the hell I was going with that. I don't really have any problem with reprints as long as they can't be easily manipulated for fraud by an unscrupulous seller. I think the fact that your willing to ask the opinions of other collectors first, before going ahead with the project wether we all support it or not, does count for something. There are quite a few reprint sets out there of various issues and there is always the danger that new collectors could be fooled into purchasing reprints thinking they're the real thing. However, if you make serious efforts to make the reprints easily distinguishable from the originals and difficult to alter, then I don't think the set would be problematic for the hobby. I also don't think reprints necessarily (sic) threaten the value of legitimate cards. God, I hope this is coherent.

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Posted By: runscott

I'm currently drinking beer, cooking sauerkraut and sausage, AND printing off the new card images WITH captial "R"s on each front - it will not be what everyone wants, but I made the "R" as large as possible without compromising the image.

"post board critique" prototypes: The Brown "R"s will be darker on the next run. The back is rubber-stamped, gaudy, irremovable, and you would have to be dumber than a plant to mistake it for vintage...yet it has a Victorian flavor...

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

Scott,

The "R" is definitely visible, but not distracting from the picture. They do look pretty nice indeed. Thanks for letting us know about the Victorian flowers on the card backs, for a second I thought it was a Chinese Dragon, which really could have been an issue because at this moment in time, I'm sober.

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Posted By: runscott

my investment cost is very low, so worst case scenario is I use up my current materials and give out the sets as gifts.

As some of you are aware, the project I was most excited about was a pre-1900 cabinet photo reprint set. The plan was fool-proof, the end product extremely high-quality, and the benefit was that pre-1900 photo collectors could get inexpensive copies of team photos that would literally cost $1000,s each to purchase the real thing. The only hang up was that I needed scans from the people who owned the actual cabinet photos - there is no copyright laws on these items, and in most cases the scans are available, but I didn't want to do it without permission.

Guess how many volunteers I got? Answer: 1 - Jimmy L. Actually, I don't give a sh*t - I made my own personal copies anyway, and I wasn't going to make money on the deal - selling them at cost. But there is a certain paranoia that exists in our hobby that really kills sharing, and is very frustrating. Oh well...

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Posted By: Tom L.

Scott,

Two alternatives (without changing the picture on the front) come to mind:

1. Make the reprints the size of a Topps card.

2. Or, just make the lines of print at the bottom an antique blue or red, which would easily be distinguished from the original. (Or better yet,
make the color different based on the year, e.g. antique blue for 1887, antique red for 1888, antique green for 1889, and peach or some other odd color for 1890.)

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Posted By: runscott

The size was chosen for several reasons: 12 fit well on a sheet, packaging is easy, scans blow up nicely without losing resolution. Also, and this is what some of you will have a problem with - they are too large, but not so large that they don't have a "real" look and feel to them. Changing the text color or font would be way too much trouble. Different colors for different years is a good idea, but I want these to look real. I can't make them "dumb-ass" proof without sacrificing realism.

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Posted By: HalleyGator

My "Commy" SMOKES the one from the Library of Congress, don't you agree runscott?? (Mine is the nice one on the left)

Boo-YAH!!!

I happen to LOVE the idea of re-prints of the Old Judge cards ...

because it will EXPOSE thousands and thousands of young collectors to card they have NEVER seen or heard of ... and then eventually they will want to BUY the REAL things.

This will INCREASE demand = increase in MARKET VALUE !!!

I think the "R" on the front is perfect.

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Ok I promised myself I wouldn't post, but here I go. Scott you are an awesome person, and an amazing photoshopper. The cards look great and I would love to help any way I can. I do think you could tweak the sepia tones to not look so much like the real thing. I do see the "R" you place and it looks great but can be altered. I would love to help with this endeavor any way I can, but I do think you should consider the suggestions of the hobby, which you have to a degree. I do think your goal should be to please everyone as a whole. This could be a very neat thing if done correctly. I am currently writing a new book on the set, (which is a long way from being done and probably never will be.) and have spent countless hours recording sales, cards, poses, and new finds. I know that I'm not even close to the knowledge I need but I hope I can help, and I hope others could help me.
Trevor

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Posted By: Emerick

Why do you want to increase market value?...I personally want to see prices go down and stay down forever so I can afford to obtain a lot of Old Judge's...but I guess I am a collector and am not using this hobby to try and make a quick buck.

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Posted By: the illini

I'd like to see prices stay at a reasonable range (as if they even are now) so that you dont have to be a millionaire to buy vintage cards.

A lot of cards are already out of many collectors' price range -- to me, that cant be good for the vintage card hobby, no matter what your reason for collecting is.

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Posted By: runscott

Probably won't entice many people who have never owned an OJ to collect them - I'm guessing most of the collectors who would be interested in these already have seen some real OJ's and like them, but can't afford to own as many as they would like (like me).

Prototype sets have been created and are being mailed out this weekend - I'll wait for that additional feedback.

Trevor - your comment about the colors is interesting. I am definitely listening to and considering every single comment I hear/read (even testing most of them) - please don't be offended if I don't incorporate all of them. The thing that glared out at me more than anything when printing off test sheets, was how awful the cards looked when the colors were not correct. I have also had people tell me that the "R" really stands out and detracts from the image, but I'm electing to leave it in. It will be more difficult to remove the "R" than you might think - the top card layer is photo paper.

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

I would have to agree as well. I would love if all Old Judges were a penny each, but I would also love it if going to a movie was still $1. Prices will go up and down no matter what the collecting world does. It only takes two people fighting over one item to determine a new value on an item. So if a card sold for $1,000 today and a $100 tomorrow then how much is it worth? Answer: what ever you are willing to pay! Old Judges are hot now but I'm sure the stock market will go back up and the prices will fall or level out. When it comes to 19th century cards they have always been far and few between. Now with the internet we can just see most of the transactions take place in front of our eyes. I had a collector tell me at a show this weekend "Man you better hope the MARKET doesn't fall out of those Old Judges or you will be in trouble." I told him "I hope the market falls out then I can pay less." These cards are rare bottom line. Bid what you can afford and hopefully you win a couple. But if you don't bid you will never win!!
Trevor

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Posted By: Emerick

Very well said, I'm just sad to see "collectors" wanting to see prices go up. Goes against everything I think the vintage baseball card genre should be about. I don't mind people paying outrageous prices to get a card, but why would any true collector wanna see a high price paid, or more people getting into these cards and driving prices up? Just means all the cards we want to collect are going to cost more from now on.
The last thing I think about when buying these cards is how much they will be worth in a few years.

-Posts/attitudes like that make me SICK.

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Posted By: halleygator

Maybe I should have said:

Increased Demand will ENSURE that the current price levels stay in place, because there will always be SOMEONE who is still trying to collect the real Old Judges.

BELIEVE ME ... I am NOT in this to make a quick buck.

If I am ... then I am "in the hole" about $500,000 right now, and therefore I am the WORST business person ever.

My point is simply that I am paying top dollar in some cases to get cards ... and I would PREFER that those cards at least HOLD their value.

.

I guess some of you are rooting for a HUGE FIND of 400,000 mint condition Old Judge cards so that EVERYONE can get some for next to nothing.

I am rooting for a huge find of 400,000 new collectors who WANT the existing Old Judge cards.

To each his own.

PS - Runscott - Do NOT assume that baseball card collectors who want Old Judge cards already know about them. I for one had no idea about them when I was out there paying big money for Topps and Goudey cards ... and then I saw the light!!

"If you build them, people will come, Runscott, people will most definitely come."

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Posted By: halleygator

Emerick: Sorry I make you sick.

Be sure not to puke on your Old Judge cards.

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Posted By: Jeff O

Emerick, it's all fine and good to wax poetic about "true collectors" and other utopian ideals. That being said, it's important that you don't lose sight of the bigger picture. You may someday lose interest in your collection... I know I have in some speicific areas that I used to collect. When that happens, you will likely sell some or all of your cards, probably with the intent on putting that money into a new area of interst. So why wouldn't you want the value of your collection to have appreciated? I know I'd rather sell for more than I paid than to get less.

And as for your comment: "but why would any true collector wanna see a high price paid, or more people getting into these cards and driving prices up?" That is some seriously old school thinking. It reminds me of the guys I used to see at shows in the mid 1980s who had been collecting since the 70s - complaining about all of the people getting into "their" hobby, but at the same time also complaining about the lack of "respect" their hobby got. I for one don't want to go back to the stone ages of the hobby, when information was scarce and the people who had it wouldn't share it... when it was impossible to find the cards you were looking for at any price, etc.

If there is one interesting side effect of eBay and grading companies as a whole (IMHO), its that they have LOWERED the value of more common, VG stuff making it more affordable than it was in the past. The other side of the coin is that truely rare or really high condition cards have gone through the roof... which is fine too.

Just my 2 cents.

Jeff O
http://www.seattlehockey.net

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Posted By: Hankron

David's investing advice: Buy what Hal will need for his registry set.

David's advice for sound retirement: Sell to Hal. Retire.

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Posted By: Hankron

David's sound retirement advice #2: Ask Manny Ramirez for two ten dollar bills for a five. Repeat until rich.

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Posted By: Elliot

Not that Hal needs defending (as he can do it quite well himself), I think he's wrong guy to single out for wanting higher card prices. I doubt Hal is sweating it out if the price of his cards are higher or lower than what he paid. If he felt that way he wouldn't look to pay top prices for the cards that he wants. I only wish that I could do the same thing more often, rather than worry if I am overpaying for something that I really want.

Having said that, I think that what Hal was trying to convey is that he hopes new collectors come into the hobby, so that his collection is not worthless. My impression is that I doubt very much if Hal's lifestyle will be affected very much if his collection was to drop in value by a substantial amount. Of course, he might need to buy his wife a little trinket to make sure she doesn't look too closely. ...btw Hal, u really need to get a private cell number for bidding in auctions and getting call backs.

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Posted By: halleygator

From now on ...

I send my wife out of town on a girl's trip to the spa when the auctions end.