Question for you Old Judge collectors

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Posted By: TBob

I have noticed more and more rebacked Old Judge cards on ebay. Does anyone have an idea as to how their value is reduced by rebacking? As compared to leaving the card skinned? As compared to the same card with the original back? I am assuming that an Old Judge with a rebacking will not grade because this is an alteration-is this true?
Thanks,
Pre-war guy but not pre-19th Century guy

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Bob--An Old Judge that is rebacked is an altered card and will not grade. Having said that there are sometimes reason to reback a photo. A skinned Old Judge photo is very fragile and easily damaged. Rebacking the card will preserve the image. In terms of value, a rebacked card is worth significantly less than the equivalent original card. I would say that we are talking about maybe a 3:1 ratio. Thus, an original Old Judge worth $300 would be worth about $100 rebacked. As a skinned photo it would be worth slightly less, maybe $75.
This is an interesting question that could be directed at the John "Phenominal" Smith card that John Billingsley is now lsiting on ebay. The card has a nice photo but is listed as rebacked. Despite the claims made in the write-up, Smith in other than his 1887 portrait is a relatively common card. An EX copy should be worth about $300 and a rebacked copy should be worth about $100. Since the current bidding is almost at $200 either I'm crazy or someone thinks they are bidding in lira.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

BTW--I believe that some or all of the rebacked cards that Billingsley is now selling on ebay were purchased skinned at the National (from TIK) and rebacked since then. I find it interesting when he notes in his write-ups that the rebacked cards do not have back damage. Why would they if they were just rebacked in the last month?

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

I would have to agree with Jay. Rebacked N172's are FAR less desirable than original. I think John is a very nice dealer and always has quality material. He has stated that they have been rebacked, so I see no problem. By saying they don't have anything on the backs could seem a little misleading, but hay at least your rebacked cards have clean new cardboard. I can't believe the price people are paying for rebacked cards and N712's in general. I will have to say there are quite a few uneducated Old Judge collectors out there who think some cards are super rare when they are common, but hey when it comes to 19th century cards who knows what the reasons people are collecting for. I have about four players on my want list which are consider common players by most people, which I would gladly pay $1,000 each in any condition. Just look at the prices that the lot of cards from Jeff's Junk went for. Some really rare cards went really cheap and some very common cards went for a ton, especially when you consider that most of the cards had back stamps and hidden (not intentional) problems. I try to bid accordingly on most N172's I need but I would have to say it's getting harder and harder to win these days. I have just sent in over 125 in for grading at SGC to start a set registry that I should have up in a couple of weeks. I will post a link when it's done. I do have to say, that there is a very big learning curve when it comes to the N172 set specially when collectors are very leery on giving up any information due to the fact it might cost them a large amount of money when the card of their dreams comes up for auction. I do love this set. I hope my great, great, great, great, great, great, grandson or daughter will be happy when they complete it! Also I do have to comment on the lot of SCD graded cards that sold recently on ebay. Most of the cards looked trimmed and a little off grade. I don't know prewarsports very well but seems like a stand-up guy and I'm sure will stand by his product. It's just frustrating to see nice people paying for cards with unstated problems. I had submitted a T205 Matty to GAI for their pre-grade and received a 7!!! When I actually sent the card in for grading it came back as trimmed. So my point is, what is the reason for pre-grading except for the graders to make money. Just my opinion (which isn't worth much) Good luck!!
Trevor Hocking

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Posted By: Paul

If anyone has a rebacked Bid McPhee that they want to sell for 1/3 the value of an unaltered one, please let me know!!!!

Paul

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

As a N172 collector, I personally find a rebacked N172 much more visually appealing and "complete" and I would certainly agree with Jay that a skinned example can be quite fragile. Of course, once the card is rebacked it becomes a restored card and thus the card does lose some of it's originality. I collect lesser grade N172's myself and usually I prefer to pick up whole or intact examples as often as possible. However, I will on occasion bid on or purchase a skinned example of a tough player or pose that I need or want.

Jay, maybe you would have some info on this:

Just for the sake of knowing, if a collector wanted to have a skinned card rebacked and have it done well,(Like John Billingsley's examples on eBay this week) Where would a N172 collector have to go or who would they contact to have the rebacking done? What would a restoration like that cost?

and here's an even more interesting question: Why in the name of Great Ceaser's Ghost am I posting about Old Judges at 4:40 a.m. on a Sunday morning? I need to go bed.

Regards,
Adam