Restored high$$ cards in slabbed-holders, especially PSA, SGC and ...

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

...other companies recognized as "reputable", is an important issue. Koos brought it up by offering the PRO cards for sale - as expected, we responded. His arguments for defending himself are another issue that has already been beaten to death; however, if PSA is indeed slabbing high$$ restored cards, even if it's only 11/60 (I believe those were Koos' numbers), that's way too many. We have been jumping PRO for a long time, and rightly so, but have we been wrongly ignoring the majore slabbing companies?

I have some questions.

First: do we believe there is any truth to Koos' posts? Can they be validated?

Second: If so, where do we go from here? Certainly there is something we can do, since readers of this board constitute a large percentage of the buyers of high$$ slabbed cards. If true, then is it technically impossible to catch all restored cards before slabbing them? According to Koos' posts, it seems that PSA does a reasonable job...if tipped off in advance. But if not... And if PSA is guilty as accKoosed, then I would guess the other major grading companies might be as well.

Third, ignoring this is not an option.

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Posted By: David

Firstly, I've quit reading Koos' posts, much less take them seriously.

Second, pop out the cards and take a look (some sooner than others). This isn't a case that can be answered by speculation or theory.

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Posted By: David

And, putting my money where my mouth is, I will this afternoon pop out and inspect my one and only graded card: an SCG 1990 Topps Tiffany Greg Vaughn (pardon the bitterness in my voice, as Vaugn's batting average plummets below his uniform number).

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Posted By: runscott

for me, there were too many red flags in his posts to ignore. I admit that he is one of the most creative posters I have "met", but I still think there is at least a shred of truth to what he posts, maybe a very large shred.

It will be too easy for those who could shed some light on this to just say "it's Koos -ignore his posts" - hope that doesn't happen.

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withdrawing my board exit until Elliot gets back and we see what his thoughts are. BTW, editing posts isn't an acceptable solution (in my opinion)

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Posted By: 2seamer

I do not think we will be hearing from Koos much longer! He will simply just dissappear before the heat gets turned on too much.

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Posted By: B C Daniels

I was the one who stated originally that cards that had been restored have been graded by grading companies and there was no mention of PSA* I wrote that 11 out of a batch of 60 or so were rejected by SGC*** and more specifically Joe merkle the founder of the company! I CALLED HIM AND ADMITTED I HAD DONE THIS JUST TO TEST HIS VAST KNOWLEDGE AND ABILITY TO DETECT THAT THIS WAS ATTEMPTED! The cards are all in my posession,none were sold to anyone and each and every card "koos" sold to bulster his feedback,was so done in untamped cards in SGC holders........some mello Mints and E-95's mostly and some briggs e-97's all certified all can be taken out by whoever won them and resubmitted under suspect if they wish! The cards will all check out fine........that's it!

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Posted By: B C Daniels

None of the cards were high dollar cards either....they were common E-94's! and e-90's!

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Posted By: runscott

Koos was talking PSA grading trimmed cards, you were talking about SGC grading trimmed cards.

Still sounds like a problem that needs fixing.

As I get more and more into this hobby, grading companies sound more and more like complete BS and a total waste of time.

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withdrawing my board exit until Elliot gets back and we see what his thoughts are. BTW, editing posts isn't an acceptable solution (in my opinion)

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

undersdtand Daniels' post. What did he do with 11 cards? Send them to SGC?

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Posted By: TBob

Unless you are planning on selling them on ebay in which case there will be an increase in the bidding proportionately. Take a "raw" T206 in EXMT and offer it for sale. Take the same card and have PSA make it a "6". Compare selling prices. That's the only reason for using grading services I can see. They have graded so many trimmed cards and misidentified (especially PSA) so many cards and allowed a "good old boy" system to flourish in their grading that I find it an utter waste of time. I have cracked open several PSA and SGC slabs this week of both tobacco and caramel cards, from vg to nrmt. They look nice in the holders (especially SGC) but otherwise, if they are going in your collection, they are an utter waste of time. The one redeeming feature, I guess, comes from several posters who like the fact their cards are protected from dings, spills and inadvertent creasing or abuse.
Bah humbug to them.

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Posted By: David

(What can I say, other than it was a boring Sunday)

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

It starts out a 5 minus (by your own words), after you restore it, it gets slabbed a PSA 7, and THIS is a common card?? God bless!

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...when YOU approached me to move cards for you because YOU needed as much money as possible to pursue buying Silver dollars to sock away for your new arrival and your 11 year old's braces, I was the one that made it quite clear that, "I don't want to auction ANYTHING as "mine" that was going to "embarrass me". Of COURSE you didn't sell ME or send ME or give ME restored cards to foist on others. I NEVER SAID that you involved ME in it. I simply wouldn't HEAR OF IT. YOU did that on your own with OTHERS. Buying one grade, fixing the problem (or "I fix!" as you so like to say in your blase' emails) and re-selling through others or in Private deals with the "upgraded" restored version you made "home improvements on" in paintings, cards, coins, watches, even HOT WHEELS cars!!!!

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Posted By: runscott

...but they aren't going away. If it can be proven that companies such as SGC and PSA are not capable of screening restored cards at an acceptable rate (11 out of 60 doesn't cut it), then I think we should do whatever we can to MAKE them go away.

So the question remains, and the people with answers are still not talking.

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Posted By: runscott

I know for a fact that if you guys start fighting in this thread, no one's going to answer my questions.

...like I expected a response anyway.

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

...I have now bought two cards that were trimmed, and I didn't know it. One might think that grading a card is worthless, but I will never buy another card unless it's graded by a Grading Co. with a reputation that I subscribe to. Or, unless I'm buying it directly from a person who guarantees the card and will back up his guarantee (unlike bocotton of eBay, who has no integrity).

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...not only will I answer your questions, but supply you with EMAILS (with UNALTERABLE, encrypted TEXT HEADERS forwarded to your email address from my "BCD" files) that will irrefutably validate anything I put into print. I must admit, Brian is right, I'm a "plebe" when it comes to OTHER than vintage T cards and my knowledge of back combinations on those is sketchy as well. I know few people in the hobby and names that are recognizable to all here aren't familiar to me. In other words..HOW CAN I CONSTRUCT EMAILS ON SUBJECTS AND PERSONS I KNOW LITTLE ABOUT WITH DEAD ACCURACEY. I don't have a crystal ball, I don't read tea leaves, and lack clairvoyance. I only know WHAT I WAS TOLD, mostly by BCD...and we ALL know just how much HE loves to rant.

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Posted By: runscott

My interest is not in yours or Brian's integrity, but in the ability of major slabbing companies to detect restoration without the aid of advance tips.

Please - only send emails that help with that effort. Seriously, I don't care about your personal lives, just cards. Thanks,

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Posted By: david

Scott, as I said before, the only way to test the theory is to physically examine a wide variety of graded cards.

While second opinions are always useuful and should be invited(whether they are from card graders or just a friend down the street), in the end it is the collector's responsibility to make the final judgements on the items they collect. Most to all restorations are not difficult to identify by the average collector, if he or she has a few tips and some 'hands on' experience. The collector who depends exclusevly on others' opinions (included professional card graders), only has to look into the mirror to see the problem.

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

Brian, did you give SGC (Merkel) advance notice of your submission? Did you pay the grading fees? Did you sprinkle in some unaltered cards with the submission? How did you come upon 60 altered vintage cards? Did you get a "cut" rate (pardon the pun) for taking them off someone's hands? Were the 11 that he spotted altered differently than the ones he missed? This and any other info appreciated.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I pointed out how the major graders have weasel language in their invoices to avoid guarantees on their services and have made visible and verifiable mistakes in grading altered cards.

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Posted By: runscott

to ask Koos to crack his '52 Mantle out for an observation, nor to ask BMW to crack out a few of their $10K+ SGC-graded cards, nor Mastro...etc.

I realize that you believe it is fairly easy to tell if a card's been trimmed, simply by observing it. The question is: if you are correct, then why son't SGC and PSA possess those same super-powers? or do they? I don't know, which is why I'm asking these questions.

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Posted By: David

My point was that speculation doesn't feed the bulldog. If you want to get at, or at least approach, answering to your questions, you have to physically examine cards. That may not be a satisfying course of action, but it the correct one.

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...is there a legal difference in the wording/meaning of a sentence between the specific dual spelling/implication of the words GuarantY and GuarantEE. I noticed that one slabbing company who states, "grading is subjective, we are not responsible for errors. A best faith effort has been made to grade and identify restoration...etc.", uses the spelling GuarantY in their labeling. Others that seem to accept MORE responsibility by the wording of their mission statements use the spelling guarantEE. What's the difference in the spelling of the word legally?

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Posted By: runscott

...

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Posted By: B C Daniels

WAS PURCHASED DIRECTLY FROM ROB LIFSON !!!!!

DO YOU GUYS KNOW WHO HE IS?

DO YOU REALLY THINK HE WOULD SELL ME A BOGUS CARD???

HE IS ONLY THE PIONEER DELUX OF CARDS AND CHILDHOOD FRIEND AND BUSINESS PARTNER OF BILL MASTRO...

I DO NOT DEAL WITH PSA....UNLESS I BUY A CARD ALREADY IN A PSA HOLDER........I HAVE NEVER SENT A CARD TO PSA I THINK THEY RUIN CARDS AND CERT THEM AFTER THEY RUIN THEM AND SEND THEM BACK....NO THANKS!

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Posted By: warshawlaw

According to my Black's Law Dictionary, a "guarantee" is "a noun, to denote the contract of guaranty or the obligation of a guarantor" while a "guaranty" is "A collateral agreement for performance of another's undertaking." GAI guarantees its grading, while Lloyd's of London has issued a policy of insurance (guaranty) to GAI to pay for its grading errors (or so Rocchi told me when I spoke with him at a recent show). Common usage increasingly makes the two interchangeable, unfortunately, and editors and others not schooled in law are likely to change them around to suit editorial content or style without regard to the formal meaning.