Still wating

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Posted By: David 

I hate beat a dead horse, but I was told repeatedly that there was going to be a detailed explanation for why the PRO8 1952 Mantle was auctioned on eBay.

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...needed to satisfy a request to do so in this manner, since I LACKED a proper receipt for the card. The card was NOT purchased by me as the result of an Ebay auction win. It was purchased in person, CASH, with no receipt to document the transaction. There was only MY say-so that I was willing to pay $12,500 for it. NOW, as the bidding did hit $15,308 (reserve STILL unmet) there is documentation that backs up my claim of what I paid, along with a 20% overage for margin of error from any disengenuous bidding. As soon as I can release the card from my possession, when it is no longer needed..it's sale will be handled by a MAJOR dealer with impeccable credentials as a card with a checkered past, further proving that I didn't BOUNCE it on one of the bidders in my auction that didn't meet the reserve. What more do you need to know. I can't WAIT to see the reaction that ensues when I auction the Pro E90-1 Joe Jax NEXT! ALSO purchased CASH, sans receipt.

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Posted By: David

Thanks for the note. I have three follow ups:

1) Why couldn't this be said during the auction?
2) Who's the dealer and when is it going to be sold?
3) Have you ever before sold PRO graded cards you knew were trimmed?

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Posted By: David

You can dismiss the followup questions, as I've tired of the issue and, to some degree, it's none of my business. At the least, I owe you this as you didn't comment on my spelling. Kindly notify the board when it is offered again in its unslabbed state as I'm sure I and others here will enjoy gawking. As noted by others, even an altered 52T Mantle is a desirable item. The real villian in this story is PRO. I'm not a lawyer, nor would I want to be one (allergic to ties), but I think it's a crime what PRO does.

Peace and best wishes

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

1) It ALREADY had been said. A few Board members with rational thought processes SAID it, to which I posted soemthing to the order of, "Good Guess", or "There's a man that uses his brain". I don't know of how many other ways I could have said it...the card was NOT going to auction since I DID have the knowledge that Mastro once labeled it restored (although nothing was disclosed as to what the restoration was).
2) As soon as the card is delivered to him, the Dealer himself can disclose his identity if HE so chooses since I don't believe that my giving him the card on consignment must be first cleared through expressed permission of the Board. To my knowledge, it WON'T be offered on Ebay, but on the Show route.
3)How ridiculous. WHY would I buy a card in a Pro holder that I KNOW was trimmed, sell it that way and throw out X amount of dollars into the garbage? I've bought 2 Pro cards in my lifetime. A mistake I will never repeat unless I need to prove an insanity plea. The MM and the E90-1 Joe Jax. NEITHER is trimmed, as the Mantle fills the holder and measures OVER specs, and the Jax measures at LEAST the same size as every other E90-1 I've ever held up to it. WHATEVER was done to that MM, it WASN'T trimming, and I wouldn't have spent $12,500 on it if I thought it was trimmed (or for that matter, conserved in any way, shape, or form, that's for sure)!

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Posted By: scott (runscott)

If they weren't trimmed, you would have had them put in a PSA or SGC slab.

--------------------------------------------
no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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Posted By: Cy

Dr. Koos,

I think you may be ahead of yourself. Are you sure that an insurance company, or whoever needs a receipt, will agree that the card is worth $15K when all of the identies were hidden? After all, you could have been the person bidding $15K. No one can tell and no one can verify that. However, if you are selling the card to any Enron personnel, I believe you are covered. They don't need much verification.

Cy

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Posted By: vorthian

>> the card was NOT going to auction since I DID have the knowledge that Mastro once labeled it restored (although nothing was disclosed as to what the restoration was). <<

And the reason for not mentioning that IT was restored in the auction description? If this dealer is going to mention it's "checkered" past - will they mention that it was restored?

An appraisal for something that this card is not - unaltered. Seems to me a new appraisal needs to be made.

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Posted By: Scott

I'm not sure I follow the reasoning for holding the auction. If the attempt was to establish what a NM Mantle is "worth" on the market, then there are/should be dealers who could provide actual sales of various grades of the same card over the past 1-2 years. I would also assume that to PROVE that someone was willing to pay what they bid, you would then have to reveal their identity (to confirm it wasn't simply your best friend or mother bidding) - which would kind of defeat the purpose of having a private auction.

Just because someone else is willing to pay 12,500 dollars for a card doesn't mean that I am (or that you were whenever the card was bought).

If the people that sold you the cards in question originally, knew they were ripping you off, then I hope that at the end of this they are duly rewarded. But I would also say that there just seem to be many better ways to be going about this without affecting others. Personally, I don't think the auction really proves anything. But then again maybe thats why I'm not a lawyer.

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Posted By: scott (runscott)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1848742167

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...on this one. It was auctioned on Ebay, 2.2 years ago by one of E-Nets handles (forget which one). I had no idea that a SLABBED, Professionally graded card, could be altered. I thought that there was a measure of safety in buying a card that was already slabbed, over buying raw, and submitting it yourself. It was the FIRST SLABBED CARD I EVER PURCHASED. I had to OFFER it, as it WAS OFFERED TO ME, to get an accurate read to be referenced AGAINST what I paid, thinking that the card was 100% legit ($12.5K). Not having ANY type of receipt, and having FIVE people associated with E-Net present at my purchase, I needed to establish that the card would be worth AT LEAST what I CLAIMED to have paid (just as I paid for WHAT I THOUGHT WAS AN UNALTERED CARD). To find out what an altered card is worth, stated as such, in a Pro Holder, would have done me no good whatsoever, as I was NOT armed with that info when I shelled out all that Cash, and knowing that in advance would have NOT purchased it. There was NO INTEREST in establishing WHAT the card WOULD go for today beyond $12.5K, just to see if the card would acheive $15K which was the goal figure determined, not by me, to support my claim of it being "a card that I paid $12,500 for", allowing for, what was decided on, to be a 20% margin of error (possible reneggers/disengenuous bids). The circumstances HAD to be duplicated as closely as possible as they were when I saw the auction, and later bought the card cash, in person. Maybe YOU can possibly explain this to the cranial gimp and the parasitic chimp (RunScott and Brueso)in binary code. I fear that guttural groans and grunts may be the only way to communicate with them. I've tried every other alternative.

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

I would like to ask you for the story of how you came by this card. Please forgive me if I've forgotten a few details already presented, but I believe that you bought this in person, already in the PRO slab, from a dealer who often sells cards in PRO slabs.

Did he tell you a story about the card? When you bought it, did you think that it was as issued by the Topps factory? How did you figure out that there was a problem?

The only adjective I've heard commonly applied to this card is "restored". What does that mean with regard to this card?

bruce

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

..YOU should give it a try..JUST ONCE, to test your theorey! I'm going to risk an average $100K+ a month of sales and purchases on Ebay to SHILL something? PLEASE!!! I had a comic client that LOST his Ebay priviledges indefinitely for shill bidding Automobile racing parts! He did it 3 times, and THEY CAUGHT IT ALL THREE TIMES..GOODBYE..Over and out!!
Also, How many dealers have sold someone OTHER than me a PRO-GRADED 52T MM in NM/MT??? I'm waiting for you to give me a complete list. Email it to me when you gather all the info. We KNOW that a PSA 8 MM, centered like THAT one is, with THAT color, would probably bring $70K+, unfortunately, there IS no info available on what a PRO 8 MM should appraise at because I've GOT THE ONLY KNOWN EXAMPLE!!! Lucky me.

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Posted By: Cy

Regardless of what you did was legit ot not, who is going to be totally satisfied with the bidding when it was hidden?

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Posted By: runscott

...

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

the identities of the bidders may have been hidden to YOU, but they certainly were visible to ME on MY screen. That's the way a Private auction works, Ebayers can't see the bidder's handles, but MY screen sure can. I can't believe that even with the card not auctioning, not being sold behind the smokescreen of an unmet reserve, and with the actual explanation..I'M STILL guilty here of something. The auction wasn't even MY idea! And the most IRONIC thing is that Board Members are always YACKING about "Gee willikers, why doesn't somebody DO something about PRO", "How long can they get away with this", and IN THIS INSTANCE, someone may ACTUALLY be taking preparatory steps to rip their way into PRO (as well as some of the other spurious "grading" services) and most of you are squealing like stuck pigs (no pun intended, Scott), "Uh, uh, duhhh.. that Koos....that bastard, he's up to no good I'm sure!".

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...since what I've told you can't be accepted, why don't I reveal the identity of the party at whose request the auction was run? I'll also reveal the game plan as well this way I can faithfully report to YOU and CONVENIENTLY FORGET THAT THIS IS A PUBLIC MESSAGE BOARD THAT EVERYONE CAN ACCESS. Gee, let's see. Was anybody here ever in the military? Would you send a warning signal and your strike coordinates to the objective's defending forces before you launch the attack? Enough has been said about the MM, let's move on to the Jackson. Now THIS is a card that was never in a Mastro auction marked as restored.

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

You obviously answered some of this while I was composing this, but there's a little left.

bruce

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

Don't you mean, "LBAH, LBAH, LBAH"?

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

..for running that auction with one objective in mind (and for trying to make MEN out of RumpScott and Bruesome, and I think I came a LONG way in doing that. I hope someday I can finish their Jedi training in person), instead of being accused of having at least 15 different motives for running that auction, all of which denote fraud!

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Posted By: Scott

If the true intent at the end of the day is to bring pressure on the Pro grading services, I would recommend doing some research on other collectible industries like stamps, paper money, and coins. I remember some problems in the stamp business in the 70's regarding alterations/restorations and forgeries that were being passed off to private collectors by big time dealers - don't remember the specifics of who/what/when but the people doing it were caught - don't remember if they served time or were fined etc. I believe that coins and paper money have had similar problems.

The tough thing about going after a grading service is that they provide a service. They may provide incompetant service, but it becomes a difference of opinion. This is especially true with anything that can be proven to be authentic - after that one may disagree with the grade assigned but thats about it. Not identifying the authenticity of several different types of cards could be gross neglegence, but challenging grades is something totally different. The only way I see that you can get them legally is to prove that Pro played a part in altering the card and then sold it.

Finally, I have no problem with the back and forth that goes on - sarcasm, wit, and even insults are ok in the right context. But couldn't the language change for the better - I'm not living in a fraternity house (did many years ago) and I don't particularly enjoy visiting one when I look to read about vintage baseball cards.

Regards

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

I doubt there is anything unintentional or negligent about any of this. Does anyone think that PRO tries to detect trimmed cards?

The stuff goes into those slabs, and some segment of collectors sees the slab and doesn't realize that the slab does not mean that the card is authentic and was graded properly.

I don't think that this is an accident on anyone's part.

bruce

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Posted By: Scott

Bruce,

I agree with you that its not unintentional on Pro's part. And I in no way defend anything having to do with that company.

The point I was trying to express is that its extremely tough to prove that they are knowingly misrepresenting card grades.

I can remember when PSA started grading cards - who you were had an amazing impact on the grade of your card! (and no its not sour grapes as I've never submitted a card to a grading service) Don't know if that has changed.

Along the same lines as the Pro trimmed cards - I strongly believe there are an awful lot of "trimmed to proper size" E cards and T cards. Back when I was truly into cards - collecting and doing shows every weekend - there were multiple times in the mid - late 80's when I encountered "gentlemen" buying pre wwII "oversized" cards. I have no doubt that many of the cards these guys found are now PSA 6's and 7's - but they sure were vg at one point in time!! At that time there wasn't the same emphasis on the corners of the cards. I guess you could say those individuals were ahead of their time

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Posted By: David

I agree that grading is an inexact science and grading companies shouldn't be held legally responsibily for a '2' versus '3' debate. I also think that everyone makes honest mistakes, and am not overly (I said overly) bothered if the occasional fake slips through. Graders should be offering compitant, inteligent and careful 2nd opinions, nothing more and nothing less. I tend to beleive that it is not the good graders that are a problem as much as the collectors who obsess over getting 10s and resubmit over and over the same modern insert they pulled from a pack until they get the desired grade.

However, if a person or company is going to accept payment to judge authenticity and assign a grade, a certain degree of compitancy is required. If 80% of a graders cards are obviously trimmed or if 90% of a graders 'cards' are intentionally or uninentionally misrepresented, this does does not meet the required threshold. I will not be surprised if some of the worst graders find themselves some day in legal trouble, whether it's criminal or civil.

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Posted By: MW

David --

I don't agree with one of your points. If I'm submitting to a grading company and an occasional "fake" (in quotes just for you) slips through, I'd say that's a major reason for concern.

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Posted By: Brueso

Doctor Bonaparte, here's the short of it- I have nothing else to say to you, and I'm sure any ongoing exchange between us has grown tiresome to all parties on this board (including me). So- continue on your rantings solo because, well- you're the only person interested in them.

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Posted By: MW

Brueso --

Perhaps if you began each of your posts with a short story or a good joke, they'd be continually welcomed throughout the duration of your extenuated dialogue with your favorite eBay seller.

Might I also suggest some Shakespeare?

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Posted By: David

I understand and don't neccesarily disagree with your point. However, as history has clearly shown, all major graders have graded fakes at one time or other, so it's not realistic to expect perfection. Naturally important mitigating factors will include the frequency and severity of the mistakes, along with how they handled the situation when the mistake was identified. And, hoping to beat you to the punch, there is no excuse if the labelling was intentionally deceptive.

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Posted By: MW

Grading one fake and occasionally grading a fake are two completely different things.

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Posted By: David

Not neccesarily true. If a grader dies young-- perhaps due to fall off a ladder or e-coli infection from a local Jack in the Box-- he may not have had the chance to perform the second in a series of 'occasional' misgrades. However, if you were assuming a normal life span, I agree with you one hundred percent.

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Posted By: benge610

Methinks .... I feel a trainwreck coming on, eh Bard?

Sorry Michael, I wasn't ignoring you in the chatroom; I had multiple screens/sites up and didn't notice you slither in (or is that blather in? no, it's slither; by giving the appearance of ignoring, I didn't give you an opportunity to wrestle the blathering championship away from me.)

Ben.

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

(except to RumpScott if he asked me nicely for it)...WHO likes or dislikes Private Auctions, or who condemns me for using them. Now, the Private Auction becomes the issue, not the card any longer because it turns out that most of you were WRONG about my intentions to stiff someone on it? What'll it be after we surmount the Private Auction accusations? Face it, the issue here was NEVER about the Auction, never about the card itself. It was all a facade for putting ME on trial because if it's not THAT, why do the accusations of FRAUD continue?

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...Bad argument. I SPOKE to John Hoffman on the phone (a rare treat I could have lived without). The man struck me either as an alcoholic, having Alzheimer's, or being a complete idiot totally oblivious to his surroundings. And I mean even more desperately idiotic than even that wacky, legendery twosome of RumpScott & Gruesome, the Ren & Stimpy of the Catskill Circuit...well, hopefully soon anyway (at least that duet, being idiot-savants know SOMETHING about cards and pipes, but little else), but Hoffman...a whole different wave-length.
Anyway, I asked President Hoffman some simple questions: "How are you", "You never returned my calls..why?", to lull him into a deeper lull of a sense of false security. Then I parried with the trick question..."Do you know anything about the PRO 8 1952T Mantle that you graded". His answer was "that there are two different types of Mantles in 1952 on the sheet and they're both different". Larry Flint could have recited the Constitution faster and with more ease than it took 'OL President Pro to stammer out that answer. The rest of the tedious conversation was the same.
On grading services, as someone said..allowances for misgrades and errors in determining altered or not? Let's draw an anology that deals with something FAKE and the laws of averages. If you pass a counterfeit bill on some shop keeper, and the next day a detective is waiting for you when you make your daily visit, to ask some questions..if you're asked to present your wallet for bill inspection and you have maybe 1 more bill out of 10 that is counterfeit as well, it's no where's near as bad for you than if HALF of your money is BAD. Before, it's an accident..50%!! You're a counterfeiter, and now you're under investigation. Sure there's trimmed and altered cards in PSA and SGC holders but the odds GREATLY favor the card in either of those holders as being legit. COMPLETELY the opposite odds holding true for cards slabbed by Pro and with the amount of money that has been pumped out in sales of Pro graded cards, THAT's GROSS NEGLIGENCE on a GRAND scale. Five of Ten auctions of pre-1960 Pro slabbed cards I've studied on Ebay, I have felt were NG. Even if I'm OVERESTIMATING by 40%, that's STILL a plausable 3 of 10 for the thumbs down vote against 1 out of every 20 cards I've seen PSA & SGC slabbed were in my estimation, suspect.

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...I've actually severed that friggin'(tm@T-Bob)umbilical chain between you and RumpScott's Organ? Another poor lost soul reclaimed through the marvels of modern medicine!

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Posted By: jay behrens

MW- just think if I held a grudge the way the pathetic Doktor does, we would still be at war with each other, lol.

Doktor, grow up, get a life and go to usenet and create alt.flame.rump.monkey and post to your hearts content.

Jay