Graded cards in eBay auctions -- should they be returnable or not?

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Posted By: MW

Here's an example of an auction where, given certain qualities of the card, the return policy sticks out like a well-hammered thumb:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1826371890

In the description are phrases like, "This vintage card has nice centering" and "razor sharp corners."

My questions are these -- do board members feel that a non-return policy for graded cards is a good idea or does it generally hoist a bright red flag to the highest visible peak? Are there any circumstances under which it might have long-term benefits for a seller on eBay? Would anyone bid in an auction where it was stated that graded cards are non-returnable? I don't know if this topic has ever been discussed here -- what does everyone think?

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Posted By: runscott

so, no, if I wanted the card I wouldn't be concerned. Personally I would never say "no returns" in my description - there are always situations where a return is reasonable.

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Posted By: petecld

BMW - is your concern based on the fact they are selling a PSA7 but use terms in the description that you would save for a PSA8 or higher? If so, I can see your point but....

I can understand the seller's view considering that lots of "7" buyer's do so only hoping to get an "8" out of it. If they receive the card and decide it won't get an "8" they'll want to return the card and I don't consider that a legitimate reason.

This is one of those situations where the buyer has to trust what he knows over what he reads. Regardless how the seller describes it, the card is graded a PSA7 and should be considered just that. Assume there is a reason for the grade.

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Posted By: leon

With the few cards I have sold on ebay, and more to come, I don't believe it is unreasonable to put "no returns". I am not a dealer so return business is not that important to me. I put hi-res enlarged scans and detailed descriptions. If this was retail I could see that "no returns" would be a problem. This is NOT retail it is an AUCTION. With that being said if someone had a legitmate situation I would listen and help if it were a good reason. Feedback speaks volumes. I do like RBCraik's descriptions on this subject also. He pretty much reiterates what I said..... ALSO, if anyone ever has a problem with anything about one of my auctions I am only an email or phone call away.....best regards all....

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Posted By: petecld

is a good defense. That's why I go out of my way to post clear images and I use honest descriptions. It's sad that this approach looks to be the exception and not the rule.

Leon, I agree with you you make good points but what if a sellers stats "no returns, sold as is" and the cards you receive are fakes? From personal experience, trust me, it doesn't just happen with people on ebay with "0" feedback. You'd be surprised. Note though that the cards in question were ungraded. On graded cards I see no problem with a "no returns" policy. Like you said, this isn't retail.

Knock on wood, of all the cards I offered my perfect record has been soiled only once by someone complaining the card was in worse shape then the scan - Tbob!!! - but we worked it out. And was it a question of the card being PSA8 vsPSA9? No, it was in poor condition. Go figure.

Just kiddin' ya Tbob.

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Posted By: Marc S.

Unless there is some substantial ommision of the cards grade/value that is perpetrated by the seller or if the scan is altered in such a way to have a material impact on what the card actually looks like vis a vis how it is represented in the auction.

I think the responsibility lies in the arms of the buyers. If they are not happy with the scans -- the buyer can and should ask questions, ask for additional scans, etc. As long as the seller provides adequate scans and documentation as to the card's condition, the buyer can make their judgments there and then.

Obviously personally viewing a card is always preferable. However, scanners have developed well enough that any high $$$ card can be scanned in minute detail for a very small cost. Thus, if sellers do not or will not provide better scans of the front and back of a card, the buyer is not obligated to bid on them.

The two main pet peeves I have are:

A) Sellers actually sending a different card than pictured. This mainly affects modern cards -- and it does not happen much anymore, but it used to be somewhat standard practice for some crooked sellers on EBay. (Bid on my Mantle PSA 7 -- with a scan of a different PSA 7 with 50/50 centering....)

B) Buyers complaining about the graded card they receive. Grading is a subjective practice, and none of us will always agree with the graders. Nonetheless if the buyer does not ask questions in advance, they should not hold the buyer liable for their own failure.

Additionally, there used to be one or two Ebay sellers who had liberal return policies. However, they had to stop them after buyers of graded cards were not able to flip them for a profit within a week or two (and they would return the card with a note on how it was overgraded, etc.).

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Posted By: leon

I actually have one card I might sell that is possibly suspect....that is why I said in my post (and this is not to cut and paste from other posts like we think is sort of redundant, but hey)....from my post in this thread..."With that being said if someone had a legitmate situation I would listen and help if it were a good reason. "

best regards
ps...a fake or reprint would be a good enough reason for me to take a return....

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I also do not provide condition analyses of the card that differ from the grade in question. If the card got a vg-ex grade, I present it as a vg-ex card. I also invite questions and requests for other scans. As long as the terms are stated up front, I think this is fair.

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Posted By: runscott

especially after reading your VCBC article on grading inconsistencies. Maybe I'm mis-reading your post.

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Posted By: Mike Williams

opens up many cans of worms, especially if a scan was provided. While I would honor a return, I would internally question the motive of the "buyer". Did he/she think they could crack it, then resubmit for a higher grade....did they have a buyer that suddenly fell through (now they're stuck with the card)....did they bid on a card they just couldn't afford....the list goes on and on. Now, if a seller had a "No Return policy"....would I bid? If it was in an SGC holder....I most likely would bid. Most other holders would scare me away. Bottom line for me....if I'm a seller, I accept the return and hope the jester of good will warrants additional business from the buyer. If I'm the buyer, the holder (and a decent scan) makes the decision an easier one.

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Posted By: Mike Williams

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Posted By: BcD

Is it a "WJ" card?

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Posted By: jeff

"jester of good will" is headed into my vocabulary. sounds oddly nihilistic. or, at the very least, cynical.

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Posted By: Mike Williams

act like I spelled it wrong twice....on purpose! No more calls Leon

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

allow returns on ALL cards, for any reason of dissatisfaction. Why not say Macrae and Knause, Conlon,
Bleam, Sports Cards Plus, in fact, ANYONE I've ever asked, before bidding, about their return policy. "If you don't like it, send it back." Why make enemies when you can make friends? Even if you're NOT looking for return business?

If someone pulls a switch on you, do the equivilent of what I do: I never buy from someone again who has grossly misrepresented a card; if I were a dealer, i would not accept bids or sell to a person who had dealt dishonerstly with me.

I don't see why a grade should keep me from returning a card; if the grade is higher than I think the card deserves, the dealer has a better chance of selling it to somebody else. Some people never look at anything but the grade, before or after buying.

Is that Sport king Ruth a PSA card? I think PSA is MUCH to lenient with early 30s stuff. Never could figure out why.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

accept returns. I suppose they might get in trouble with their consigners. I dunno. Could cause a lot more hassle than they already have, running an auction. I returned a card to Lipset, about 2 years ago. But Mastro and all the little Mastros, Lelands, all them guys--what you bid on is what you get...every time I read in the auction rules "No returns will be accepted at any time for any reason," it bugs me.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I kicked this issue around a lot before I decided on a no returns policy. I will share my reasoning with you.

I have my doubts when it comes to the grading services. That being said, I have much more bile reserved for dealers who "regrade" a graded card to try to sell it AND buyers who buy a "7" but expect an "8" and get indignant when they get a "7" or even a "7.5". I found that I was getting some returns on graded cards not because I had done anything wrong or because the card was inaccurately graded but because the buyer was bottom fishing. I then was faced with a loss on the deal, since every one of these clowns threatened negative feedback unless I refunded their shipping as well as their purchase price. This had to stop.

I also considered one fact that even I have to admit when it comes to the grading services (and which I admitted in my article): SGC and PSA do prevent the gross condition inflation that I think is the absolute worst part of buying by mail.

I also considered my experiences on the purchasing end of things. I found that when I purchased graded cards from the big two by mail that I never had occasion to say that the card was so badly overgraded to justify a return, provided that I asked questions and asked for and received detailed scans before I bid. In fact, when I see a card I want and the scan is hazy or hard to read (unless the card is a 3 anyway; let's be real, how good can a 3 be?), I ask for a clear scan and ask questions. If I ask a question or seek a scan on a graded card and the seller does not respond, I don't bid.

I wanted to be fair to myself and to the buyer. I decided that the happy medium was to offer a graded card "as is" but with full disclosure; I don't embellish on the grade given, I answer all questions posed as accurately as I can, and I send additional scans to the potential buyer if requested to do so. The buyer can choose to trust their eyes and those of the third party, or not. This seems to work in real estate, so it should work here. Mind you, I am not talking about misrepresentations (which is what I think these "should have been an 8" guys are doing) or faked or manipulated scans, like the one I got burned on recently. To me, that's fraud and isn't to be tolerated in any context. If I got a faked scan or a lie in response to an inquiry I would return the item no matter what the return policy stated was. It is called rescission for fraud.

I do not refuse refunds with ungraded cards; I recognize that there is some level of random subjectivity at work there, no matter how careful I am about it.

I don't have a good answer to this situation. Has anyone got any ideas for a comfortable medium?

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I have to say, though, that if the no returns policy presented to me up front, I am ok with it. I either opt not to purchase or I bid a grade or three lower than the listed grade to keep from being burned on an ungraded item.

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Posted By: scott

hassles, but a return would still be warranted for certain reasons, no matter what they say: fake autographs, blatant "un-truths" in the description (other than grading),etc. After all, we're buying from the auction house and have to trust them, not a consignor we don't know from Adam (isn't that part of why we pay a 10-15% fee?)

...but regarding "over-grading" - I can't cut anyone slack for getting ripped in a Festberg auction, any more than we can share a cry with people who get gyp'd by PRO - we've discussed these two until there's just no excuse to buy unless you're willing to take a very well-known risk. But to be fair to Festberg, I emailed to ask about lot condition and they emailed back telling me to call to discuss - so if you really want something, don't be lazy like I was (and I paid for it).

Same with dealers like Kit Young - I called and spoke to someone there for 10 minutes, bugging the heck out of them with my questions about an advertised "vg" green portrait Cobb - he got a little wise with me explaining that it would clearly be a vg to anyone. That's when I should have bailed, but I bought his sell job, and it was a "good" - SGC and I actually agreed on that one. So I won't buy from KitYoung without a scan in the future...and if I do, I'm a moron and should be slapped if I whine about it later.

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Posted By: MW

Warshaw --

It's a difficult subject and that's why I asked. Over the past several years on eBay, we've only had a few returns. In each case, I had a strong suspicion that the bidder had attempted to resell the card at a profit, but had been unsuccessful. One of the returns was a PSA 8 1963 Pete Rose rookie that had 60/40 centering on the back. The reason given for the return? The back was not well-enough centered. I guess it could also be that some buyers want a refund because they would rather purchase something else that they see a few days later. Maybe a specific time limit for returns would help, but I think that's pretty much a given already.

BTW, I haven't read your article yet. You must have really let some grading companies have it. I can't say that there aren't some cases on eBay where I disagree with your philosophy, however. I would have serious reservations bidding in just about ANY auction if the seller didn't have a return policy. That is unless I knew him/her and I implicitly trusted his/her judgement and descriptions. Call me cynical.

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Posted By: TBob

Still flogging me about that Chance (wasn't it) E93? Since everything worked out and positive feedback was left, your perfect record is still intact.

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Posted By: TBob

Since graded cards are patently offensive in the first place because of the subjectivity (and sometimes batant submission/grading chicanery) involved, if a dealer wants to make his auction of a graded card "no returns," I don't have any problem with it. If you realize you are overpaying because the card is slabbed and you bid knowing the rules of the seller, I see nothing wrong.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Instead of calling it a restocking fee, which would turn off most people including myself, if you are going to list something like that, say that you will refund less the shipping and eBay fees. That is the way I have handled all my returns (never sold a graded card) This way, you don't look like you are trying to make money off a return.

Jay

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Posted By: marty

I have only had one graded card returned. I sold a graded card with a 150% scan of front and back. I did not list any return policy. This was told back to me. They said that since I did not say no refunds that they expected me to refund because they did not like the "presentation". They were willing to eat the shipping, so I was only out the eBay fees and the lost sell. I have started listing that I will refund the total less 15% restocking fee. This is to cover the fees and opportunity cost that I incure. This should also help against the buyers that are looking for under-graded cards. How does anyone feel about refunding a percentage.

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Posted By: petecld

If a place charges a fee for returns I won't bid in thier auctions and I use their catalog to line the bottom of my waste basket.

As for postage, even on a return, why should you refund postage? They knew they had to pay postage up front and it was used properly, why give it back. Remember, it is THEIR option to return the item, not your doing. I think their original postage fee is a small price to pay to get your money back.

Also, consider - you can get back your ebay final selling fee if the buyer returnd the item. All it ends up costing you is the insertion fee which is a small price to pay. Not to mention anyone like me who will read "restocking" fee and pass on all of your auctions.

When I read "restocking fee", my impression is that this seller must have TONS of returns and they need to charge a fee to pay for overhead. Not with my money.