The second and third greatest knuckleball pitchers of all time?

[Balticfox]

Phil Niekro is widely hailed as the greatest knuckleball pitcher of all time. But who are the second and third greatest? Hoyt Wilhelm, Charlie Hough, Dutch Leonard, Tom Candiotti, Tim Wakefield, R.A. Dickey, or...? Why?

[packs]

Phil won a lot of games but he also led the league in losses four years in a row and retired with an ERA+ of 115.

I would take Hoyt Wilhelm for my team. Guy was an unheralded beast and would have a case for being the highest paid pitcher in the game today if he were starting his career right now.

In the age of the opener and long relief man, who wouldn't empty the bank for Hoyt Wilhelm?

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by packs

Phil won a lot of games but he also led the league in losses four years in a row and retired with an ERA+ of 115.

Phil Niekro pitched 5404.0 innings over 24 years to the age of 48 though and retired with a lifetime ERA of 3.35.

Originally Posted by packs

I would take Hoyt Wilhelm for my team. Guy was an unheralded beast and would have a case for being the highest paid pitcher in the game today if he were starting his career right now.

In the age of the opener and long relief man, who wouldn't empty the bank for Hoyt Wilhelm?

Hoyt Wilhelm pitched 2254.1 innings over 21 years to the age of 49 and retired with a lifetime ERA of 2,52.

What makes the comparison tough is that Wilhelm didn't break into the major leagues until the age of 29 while Niekro started at the age of 25. Moreover Niekro started in 716 games while Wilhelm started in only 52 games.

[cgjackson222]

Behind "Knucksie" and Wilhelm, I might go with Eddie “Knuckles” Cicotte, who is considered the first to master the pitch.

Cicotte had some of the best years of any pitcher of his era in 1913, 1917, and 1919 when he was a combined 75 wins vs. 30 losses during those years and an ERA well below 2.00 each of those seasons.

Cocotte went 21-10 in 1920 before he was banned from baseball as part of his being a major part of the Black Sox scandal. Had he continued playing a few more years (and avoided scandal), he may very well have become HOF worthy.

Wilbur Wood was a knuckleballer that also put up some big numbers in the early 1970s.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by packs

Phil won a lot of games but he also led the league in losses four years in a row and retired with an ERA+ of 115.

I would take Hoyt Wilhelm for my team. Guy was an unheralded beast and would have a case for being the highest paid pitcher in the game today if he were starting his career right now.

In the age of the opener and long relief man, who wouldn't empty the bank for Hoyt Wilhelm?

Man, I hate when I agree with you about baseball

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Behind "Knucksie" and Wilhelm, I might go with Eddie “Knuckles” Cicotte, who is considered the first to master the pitch.

Cicotte had some of the best years of any pitcher of his era in 1913, 1917, and 1919 when he was a combined 75 wins vs. 30 losses during those years and an ERA well below 2.00 each of those seasons.

Cocotte went 21-10 in 1920 before he was banned from baseball as part of his being a major part of the Black Sox scandal. Had he continued playing a few more years (and avoided scandal), he may very well have become HOF worthy.

Wilbur Wood was a knuckleballer that also put up some big numbers in the early 1970s.

Ah, Wilbur Wood. He had some monster seasons as both a Reliever and a Starter. His run from '68 to '74 is pretty fascinating.

[TUM301]

As mentioned, Eddy Cicotte and Wilbur Wood.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Phil Niekro pitched 5404.0 innings over 24 years to the age of 48 though and retired with a lifetime ERA of 3.35.



Hoyt Wilhelm pitched 2254.1 innings over 21 years to the age of 49 and retired with a lifetime ERA of 2,52.

What makes the comparison tough is that Wilhelm didn't break into the major leagues until the age of 29 while Niekro started at the age of 25. Moreover Niekro started in 716 games while Wilhelm started in only 52 games.

Hard to play the what if game but the one time the leash was off Hoyt and he was allowed to start and pitch as much as he wanted, he threw 226 innings and led the league in both ERA and ERA+.

He was also 36 years old at the time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Phil Niekro pitched 5404.0 innings over 24 years to the age of 48 though and retired with a lifetime ERA of 3.35.



Hoyt Wilhelm pitched 2254.1 innings over 21 years to the age of 49 and retired with a lifetime ERA of 2,52.

What makes the comparison tough is that Wilhelm didn't break into the major leagues until the age of 29 while Niekro started at the age of 25. Moreover Niekro started in 716 games while Wilhelm started in only 52 games.

If memory serves, Wilhelm hit a home run in his very first game and never hit another.

[packs]

I will say Niekro does have some whacky seasons under his belt that seem very hard to explain on the surface.

In 1978, he went 19-18, lost more games than anyone else, gave up more hits and earned runs than anyone else, and hit more people than anyone in the league.

But he also somehow led the league in WAR.

The next season it was even weirder. He led the league in both wins and losses after going 21-20, he gave up more hits, home runs, and walks than any other pitcher in the league, but again led everyone in WAR.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by packs

I will say Niekro does have some whacky seasons under his belt that seem very hard to explain on the surface.

In 1978, he went 19-18, lost more games than anyone else, gave up more hits and earned runs than anyone else, and hit more people than anyone in the league.

But he also somehow led the league in WAR.

The next season it was even weirder. He led the league in both wins and losses after going 21-20, he gave up more hits, home runs, and walks than any other pitcher in the league, but again led everyone in WAR.

Availability is valuable.

He also usually led the league in innings pitched...by a lot.

...and the difference between him and the #10 guy was a huge gulf. Usually around a 100 innings. Sometimes even more. That's like 11 Extra complete games a season.

I also believe Atlanta was considered a hitter's paradise during those days, so that would have helped his overall value also.

[nat]

Also remember that those Braves teams were really bad. That he led the league in wins while pitching for the 1979 Braves is pretty impressive.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Ah, Wilbur Wood. He had some monster seasons as both a Reliever and a Starter. His run from '68 to '74 is pretty fascinating.

Fascinating indeed!

Originally Posted by Wikipeda

Wilbur Wood, who had previously relied on a fastball and curveball, refined the knuckleball (My Note: playing for the Columbus Jets of the International League in 1966) with the help of veteran knuckleball specialist Hoyt Wilhelm. He spent the next four seasons as a relief pitcher for Chicago. In 1968, he set a record (broken the next year) with 88 games pitched and was named the Sporting News American League Fireman of the Year.

The White Sox tried to trade Wood before the 1971 season, but an injury to starting pitcher Joe Horlen caused them to put him in the starting rotation. That season, pitching coach Johnny Sain suggested that Wood pitch with only two days' rest between starts, since knuckleball specialists do not put as much stress on their arms as other pitchers. Wood proceeded to lead the AL in games started from 1972 through 1975, starting a career-high 49 games in 1972 (My note: with an ERA of 2.51). That season, he also recorded a career-high 376 2⁄3 innings pitched (My note: more than 7 2/3 innings per start!). He won 20 or more games for four consecutive seasons, leading the AL in 1972 and 1973 with 24 wins. In 1973, Wood also matched the 1916 record of Walter Johnson of a pitcher to win and lose 20 or more games in a season. Wood was an All-Star in 1971, 1972, and 1974.

Perhaps Wilbur Wood's best season though was 1971 when he pitched 334 innings in 44 appearances including 42 starts and 22 complete games in those starts. And he posted a stellar ERA of only 1.91 while pitching all those innings!

I mean "Wow!"

[packs]

Wow yeah looks like Phil accounted for almost a third of all the games the Braves won in 1979.

He had such an interesting career by the numbers. So many innings, so many wins, so much WAR and then the other end with the walks and home runs and seeming so hittable sometimes.

The knuckle is cool. He gave up 482 total home runs which is fourth all time. I was very surprised to see only Jamie Moyer and Robin Roberts have given up over 500 home runs. Roberts was a surprising name I didn't realize he got hamered so much. Even in his prime while he was winning 23 games he gave up 41 homers.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I will say Niekro does have some whacky seasons under his belt that seem very hard to explain on the surface.

In 1978, he went 19-18, lost more games than anyone else, gave up more hits and earned runs than anyone else, and hit more people than anyone in the league.

But he also somehow led the league in WAR.

The next season it was even weirder. He led the league in both wins and losses after going 21-20, he gave up more hits, home runs, and walks than any other pitcher in the league, but again led everyone in WAR.

It's because he pitched so damn much. WAR seems to reward that. Look at Wilbur Wood's big seasons.

[frankbmd]

Gus Triandos employed an oversized mitt when catching Wilhelm.

Bob Uecker's advice on catching a knuckle ball was

'Wait until it stops rolling and then pick it up"

In his prime Wilbur Wood pitched as a starter every third day for the Pale Hose in the early seventies.

This doesn't merit another thread, but the eephus pitch should be included in any discussion of fringe pitches.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

This doesn't merit another thread, but the eephus pitch should be included in any discussion of fringe pitches.

The knuckleball though isn't a fringe pitch. Any pitcher without one in his repertoire is deficient in my book and should be sent down to the minors to improve his craft.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Gus Triandos employed an oversized mitt when catching Wilhelm.

Bob Uecker's advice on catching a knuckle ball was

'Wait until it stops rolling and then pick it up"

In his prime Wilbur Wood pitched as a starter every third day for the Pale Hose in the early seventies.

This doesn't merit another thread, but the eephus pitch should be included in any discussion of fringe pitches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JNLBAMmtUk

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by packs

Hard to play the what if game but the one time the leash was off Hoyt and he was allowed to start and pitch as much as he wanted, he threw 226 innings and led the league in both ERA and ERA+.

He was also 36 years old at the time.

Yes indeed! In 1959 with Paul Richards managing the Orioles, Hoyt Wilhelm pitched 226 innings in 32 appearances including 27 starts and 13 complete games in those starts. He posted an ERA of only 2.19 while pitching an average of over seven innings per appearance!

[steve B]

I'm not sure how the others were teamwise, but Wakefield was very different.

Signed an auto renewing one year contract that was a decent deal for both him and the team. Only modified at his request after a bad season - he requested the yearly pay be decreased since he felt his age and abilities were not as valuable.

At least one time had good stats until a week where neither the starters of relievers were doing well. Asked to eat up innings on minimal rest so the relievers could rest even if it went badly and wrecked his stats he agreed and took a pretty bad beating for all nine innings. And just said it was what the bullpen needed so he was happy to help.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by packs

Wow yeah looks like Phil accounted for almost a third of all the games the Braves won in 1979.

He had such an interesting career by the numbers. So many innings, so many wins, so much WAR and then the other end with the walks and home runs and seeming so hittable sometimes.

The knuckle is cool. He gave up 482 total home runs which is fourth all time. I was very surprised to see only Jamie Moyer and Robin Roberts have given up over 500 home runs. Roberts was a surprising name I didn't realize he got hamered so much. Even in his prime while he was winning 23 games he gave up 41 homers.

In defence of Phil Niekro he had to end up giving up a lot of everything because he pitched so many innings over so many years. But it's interesting to look at specifically those two years where he recorded his highest totals for innings pitched.

In 1978 at the age of 39 his record was 19-18 on an Atlanta Braves team that was 69-93. Niekro pitched 334 1/3 innings in 44 appearances which included 42 starts with 22 complete games in those starts. He posted an ERA of only 2.88 while pitching an average of almost 7 2/3 innings per appearance!

In 1979 at the age of 40 his record was 21-20 on an Atlanta Braves team that was 66-94. Niekro pitched 342 innings in 44 starts with 23 complete games in those starts. He posted an ERA of 3.39 while pitching an average of over 7 2/3 innings per appearance!

Niekro was great in 1978 and 1979. The Braves didn't have much more going for them than Phil Niekro in those two years.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Niekro was great in 1978 and 1979. The Braves didn't have much more going for them than Joe Niekro in those two years.

Not sure if you mentioned Joe on purpose or by mistake, but it's funny that Phil's younger brother has been over-looked completely in this thread.

Not the workhorse Phil or Wilbur Wood was, probably because he didn't use the knuckleball exclusively, and played on teams with other good pitchers, but he did use it quite a bit.

Joe had a really nice run with the Astros from '77 to '84, and I say this knowing it's a bit disingenuous to compare pitchers of then from today, but Joe has more career Complete Game Shutouts then present day workhorse Justin Verlander has Complete Games.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Not sure if you mentioned Joe on purpose or by mistake....

By mistake which I've now corrected. But good things have arisen from that mistake because Joe Niekro totally deserves mention and accolades in this thread as well!

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

...Joe has more career Complete Game Shutouts then present day workhorse Justin Verlander has Complete Games.

Wow, cool!

[jp1216]

Love the reactions:

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Perhaps Wilbur Wood's best season though was 1971 when he pitched 334 innings in 44 appearances including 42 starts and 22 complete games in those starts. And he posted a stellar ERA of only 1.91 while pitching all those innings!

Originally Posted by Balticfox

In 1959 with Paul Richards managing the Orioles, Hoyt Wilhelm pitched 226 innings in 32 appearances including 27 starts and 13 complete games in those starts. He posted an ERA of only 2.19 while pitching an average of over seven innings per appearance!

Originally Posted by Balticfox

In 1978 at the age of 39 his record was 19-18 on an Atlanta Braves team that was 69-93. Niekro pitched 334 1/3 innings in 44 appearances which included 42 starts with 22 complete games in those starts. He posted an ERA of only 2.88 while pitching an average of almost 7 2/3 innings per appearance!

In 1979 at the age of 40 his record was 21-20 on an Atlanta Braves team that was 66-94. Niekro pitched 342 innings in 44 starts with 23 complete games in those starts. He posted an ERA of 3.39 while pitching an average of over 7 2/3 innings per appearance!

Compare the above innings pitched totals to the pathetic ones posted by the "leaders" in 2024 when Logan Gilbert topped the list with 208 2/3 innings:

2024 Innings Pitched Leaders

[packs]

Only mentioning for posterity, but the last person to pitch 300 innings in a season was Steve Carlton in 1980.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Carlton Does it All - Ball Nine

(In 1972 Steve Carlton) made 41 starts, threw 30 complete games, and logged 346 innings, more than anyone since. He also struck out 310 batters, becoming only the second lefthander in National League history to record 300 strikeouts (Sandy Koufax was first) and posted an ERA of 1.97.

Most remarkable, though, he won 27 games for a team that won only 59. (Only one pitcher since has won 27, the A’s Bob Welch whose team won the World Series that year.) In other words, Carlton – who finished 27-10 – accounted for 45.7 percent of his team’s wins in 1972, a record unlikely to be broken.

Wow! Steve Carlton won the Cy Young Award for those numbers in 1972 and then again in 1977, 1980 and 1982. He lacked only a knuckleball.

[Balticfox]

Hmmmm. I was able to embed a video from Youtube a couple of days ago but I've failed completely tonight. Here anyway is the link:

MLB's Dark Art: The Knuckleball - Youtube

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by steve B

I'm not sure how the others were teamwise, but Wakefield was very different.

Signed an auto renewing one year contract that was a decent deal for both him and the team. Only modified at his request after a bad season - he requested the yearly pay be decreased since he felt his age and abilities were not as valuable.

At least one time had good stats until a week where neither the starters of relievers were doing well. Asked to eat up innings on minimal rest so the relievers could rest even if it went badly and wrecked his stats he agreed and took a pretty bad beating for all nine innings. And just said it was what the bullpen needed so he was happy to help.

Now that's a player who merits the full respect of every true baseball fan! Tim Wakefield certainly gets mine.

Wakefield's best year may have been in 1995 which was fairly early in his career. In that year he pitched 195 1/3 innings in 27 starts for the Boston Red Sox with 6 complete games. He posted an ERA of only 2.95 while pitching an average of almost 7 1/3 innings per appearance! It was in 2005 though at the age of 38 that he logged the most work pitching a total of 225 1/3 innings in 33 starts which was just over 6 2/3 innings per start with a respectable ERA of 4.15.

[Balticfox]

It's a little known fact that Warren Spahn rejuvenated his career at the age of 42 in 1963 by adding a knuckleball to his bag of tricks. Spahn went 23-7 for the Milwaukee Braves that year thus matching his career best W-L mark. He posted an ERA of only 2.60 in 33 starts with 22 complete games! The 259 2/3 innings he pitched work out to an average of nearly 8 per game.

Here are scans of my two Warren Spahn cards:





I also have his 1963 Salada Baseball Coin and his 1964 Topps Baseball Coins.

[Balticfox]

Sadly R.A. Dickey isn't getting any love in this thread. But he's the only knuckleballer to have won the Cy Young Award when he went 20-6 with an E.R.A. of 2.73 for the New York Mets in 2012. He pitched 233 2/3 innings that year in 33 starts with 5 complete games and one other appearance where he closed out the game which means he pitched about 7 innings per start.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Sadly R.A. Dickey isn't getting any love in this thread. But he's the only knuckleballer to have won the Cy Young Award when he went 20-6 with an E.R.A. of 2.73 for the New York Mets in 2012. He pitched 233 2/3 innings that year in 33 starts with 5 complete games and one other appearance where he closed out the game which means he pitched about 7 innings per start.

Kershaw was robbed

[Balticfox]

Well Clayton Kershaw did post a glowing E.R.A. of 2.53 in 2012. But he went only 14-9 and was too lazy to complete any more than 2 of the 33 games in which he started. I mean what's with that? And how was his knuckleball anyway?

Incidentally, you're not a Dodgers über alles type are you?

[Balticfox]

The legendary Satchel Paige expanded his pitching repertoire in 1939-40 by adding a knuckleball which he learned from fabled base path speedster Cool Papa Bell. I don't know how often Paige used his knuckleball but he caught on with the Cleveland Indians in 1948 at the age of 41 and after playing for the Indians for two seasons returned to the American League in 1951 with the St. Louis Browns for whom he pitched for three seasons:

[Peter_Spaeth]

And he was not in 50 Bowman, 51 Bowman, 52 Bowman, 53 Bowman or -- tragically -- 52 Topps.

[Balticfox]

I guess Satchel Paige's rookie cards would have been the 1949 Leaf and the 1949 Bowman cards. Never know it though given how much some sellers ask for his 1953 Topps card. I don't like the design of the 1953 Topps Baseball cards anyway which is a real pity since that's the last year for both Satchel Paige and the St. Louis Browns.

(Not mine.)

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

I guess Satchel Paige's rookie cards would have been the 1949 Leaf and the 1949 Bowman cards. Never know it though given how much some sellers ask for his 1953 Topps card. I don't like the design of the 1953 Topps Baseball cards anyway which is a real pity since that's the last year for both Satchel Paige and the St. Louis Browns.

I really like most of the 1953 player paintings. Word is that they were done by a number of different artists...some were not good (ex: Minoso)...lots were very good (ex: Paige)...and a few were great (ex: Mantle)! IMO, of course...

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

I really like most of the 1953 player paintings. Word is that they were done by a number of different artists...some were not good (ex: Minoso)...lots were very good (ex: Paige)...and a few were great (ex: Mantle)! IMO, of course...

Agreed, 53 is one of my favorite sets, love the portraits. 53 Mays is an abomination unfortunately.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Behind "Knucksie" and Wilhelm, I might go with Eddie “Knuckles” Cicotte, who is considered the first to master the pitch.

Cicotte had some of the best years of any pitcher of his era in 1913, 1917, and 1919 when he was a combined 75 wins vs. 30 losses during those years and an ERA well below 2.00 each of those seasons.

Cocotte went 21-10 in 1920 before he was banned from baseball as part of his being a major part of the Black Sox scandal. Had he continued playing a few more years (and avoided scandal), he may very well have become HOF worthy.

I agree! Absolutely HOF worthy without the Black Sox scandal.

While the origins of the knuckleball are uncertain, Eddie Cicotte was probably the first pitcher to use it on a regular basis. And Cicotte had some outstanding years with the Chicago White Sox. In 1913 he was 18-11 with an ERA of 1.58 pitching 268 innings while completing 18 of the 30 games he started. In 1917 he was 28-12 with an ERA of 1.53 pitching 346 2/3 innings while completing 29 of the 35 games he started. And in 1919 at the age of 35 (at season's end) he was 29-7 with an ERA of 1.82 pitching 306 2/3 innings while completing 30 of the 35 games he started. Evidently White Sox owner Charles Comiskey ordered manager Kid Gleason to bench Cicotte for the last five games because Cicotte would under his contract have earned a $10,000 bonus had he reached the 30 victory mark!

But Cicotte was forced to retire late in the 1920 season after being banned for life by Commissioner Kenesaw Mountain Landis for being one of the players implicated in the Chicago Black Sox World Series scandal of 1919.



The infamous scandal has acted to almost completely overshadow Cicotte's pitching achievements.

[Balticfox]

Here's an interesting detail:

Bob Feller was a 35-year-old veteran of 15 major-league seasons in 1954 when the Cleveland Indians won 111 games and swept to the American League pennant by eight games over the New York Yankees. His fastball had lost a good deal of its luster and manager Al Lopez had reportedly wanted to release him during spring training. Lopez, however, was overruled by general manager Hank Greenberg, who was worried about fan reaction, particularly since Feller had pitched pretty well in 1953, winning 10 while losing seven.

His fastball revived to the extent that, if not back to 1940s standards, it was above average. He had developed a sinker to go with his curveball and slider, and sometimes even broke out a knuckleball.

That detail makes Bob Feller's 1953 Topps' card even more intriguing to me although I don't much like the set's design:

(Not mine.)

[Balticfox]

MLB Knuckleball Reel

Good luck hitting these!

[Knucksie49]

In 1945 the Washington Senators pitching staff had four starters and one relief pitcher who threw the knuckleballs. This staff pitched 1005 of the 1412 innings that year. Dutch Leonard, who was the guy who was an anchor of the staff, and the guy that gave rise to a young kid in North Carolina named James Hoyt Wilhelm, was 17-7 with a 2.13 ERA. I think he also deserves to be on the short list. Jackie Robinson said, "I am glad of one thing, and that is I don't have to hit against Dutch Leonard every day. Man, what a knuckleball that fellow has. It comes up, makes a face at you, then runs away."

[frankbmd]

I'll pass on the second and third greatest knuckles, but Hoyt was number one in my book, who also benefitted from having the best knuckle ball catcher with his giant oversized mitt, Gus Triandos.

[Balticfox]

here's Gus Triandos comparing his regular catcher's mitt with the one he used when Hoyt Wilhelm was pitching: