3 versions of Old Judge Peek A Boo Veech! Proofs?

[vthobby]

Found these 3 in the Vermont countryside today! 3 different versions of his Goodwin 1888-89 Old Judge card!

Proofs?

These were NOT found in those huge screw-downs lol. It's what I had available to protect them when I got them home!

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[oldjudge]

Non-period images made from glass plate negatives. Minimal value.

[vthobby]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Non-period images made from glass plate negatives. Minimal value.

Does minimal value equate to intrinsic value?

I'd disagree with the "minimal" part but we may have different definitions.

Intrinsic trumps real value for me most of the time when it comes to vintage.

I do appreciate your knowledge and opinion.

Thanks Jay.

[oldjudge]

Hi Mike! What does intrinsic value mean? The value of the paper? When I say minimal value I mean a lot less than an actual period piece like a proof. I think someone might pay $50-$100 for a piece like this but I would be surprised if someone would pay what an actual period proof would go for. We describe these pieces in the Old Judge book. The pieces that I have previously seen appear to have been originally created by the owner of a group of glass plate negatives. Those negatives were original and interesting, but were not particularly useful for display. Because of this, at some time after the Old Judge period, the owner of the negatives made prints for display and these print may be what we are seeing today. The images were at that time were not made to deceive, just to create something useful. However, the negatives still exist and I guess that images that appear could have also been made from the negatives in recent years. In the early 2000s I got a negative of Tug Wilson and had a positive image made by a local photographer. I believe it is pictured in the book.

[vthobby]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Hi Mike! What does intrinsic value mean? The value of the paper? When I say minimal value I mean a lot less than an actual period piece like a proof. I think someone might pay $50-$100 for a piece like this but I would be surprised if someone would pay what an actual period proof would go for. We describe these pieces in the Old Judge book. The pieces that I have previously seen appear to have been originally created by the owner of a group of glass plate negatives. Those negatives were original and interesting, but were not particularly useful for display. Because of this, at some time after the Old Judge period, the owner of the negatives made prints for display and these print may be what we are seeing today. The images were at that time were not made to deceive, just to create something useful. However, the negatives still exist and I guess that images that appear could have also been made from the negatives in recent years. In the early 2000s I got a negative of Tug Wilson and had a positive image made by a local photographer. I believe it is pictured in the book.

Thanks Jay. I do see your point. I was talking intrinsically as in the provenance and yes the fact that they were clearly vintage paper or cabinet stock is all I meant. Intrinsic was probably not the correct word there.

I did feel that these most likely originated from the "Vermont Find" many years ago as the guy said he had a bunch of glass negatives but sold them all and he had found this grouping in a separate box in his attic. He did have 3 film type plastic material negatives from 1888 that he kept. Just for info purposes the names were "Flynn with bat", "Doran hands at waist", and "Doran one hand on hip"

I felt that when you said "Minimal value" you were implying pennies on the dollar so thank you for clarifying. I paid the man fairly based on your estimates so I feel good about that.

I respect and appreciate your knowledge and opinions always. Your contributions and knowledge sharing with the hobby are priceless (which could be generated by intrinsic motivation! ). Thank you!

Mike

[kkkkandp]

For further reference, here is an actual glass plate negative for that particular pose of Peek-A-Boo Veach as it appeared in Love of the Game's Summer 2022 Premier Auction. Obviously, the glass plate has been broken, though the player image itself was left unaffected.

As Jay stated, those negatives are not particularly useful for display. As such, Al Crisafulli provided non-period positive images created from the negatives he was auctioning to supplement the listings.

[Leon]

It seems like every few years these old "proofs" make a comeback in questioning what they are. Thanks for sharing the info, gents!
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