Grading raw vintage cards for trade or resale purposes

[obcbeatle]

The newest SCD catalog I have is from 2009. Is it safe to say that using the grading guide in that SCD is still sufficient for purposes of grading raw vintage cards for trading and selling? Or are there newer grading guides these days for cards? The reason I ask is that I'm seeing a LOT of TPG graded cards that look VGEX to me, but are graded Poor. Many are posted/pictured here in threads re: "recent pickups", Pre-War & Post-War. I understand that TPG grading can be very harsh, particularly lately, and I understand that their grading can be all over the place, which sort of negates one of the reasons for even having TPG's. But it makes it awfully hard to consider a grade for a simple raw card when considering trades/selling these days. Particularly in the VG, VGEX, EX condition area. And yes, I know everyone has their own opinion on what grade a card should be, e.g. the seller almost always thinks his card is a higher grade than what the buyer perceives. It's human nature I'm just looking for a standard relevant go-to grading guide for raw cards. Bottom line, what guide are raw card collectors using in todays world?

[Musashi]

First, I generally use PSA's published grading guidelines (spoiler alert: they don't use their own guidelines. If they did, there wouldn't be qualifiers). Second, (assuming these are internet sales) I provide a list of the reasons I feel it earned that grade, with emphasis on any issues that may not be obvious in scans. That way, even if the buyer disagrees with my grade, they still have all the information they need to come to their own conclusion before they purchase.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by obcbeatle

The newest SCD catalog I have is from 2009. Is it safe to say that using the grading guide in that SCD is still sufficient for purposes of grading raw vintage cards for trading and selling? Or are there newer grading guides these days for cards? The reason I ask is that I'm seeing a LOT of TPG graded cards that look VGEX to me, but are graded Poor. Many are posted/pictured here in threads re: "recent pickups", Pre-War & Post-War. I understand that TPG grading can be very harsh, particularly lately, and I understand that their grading can be all over the place, which sort of negates one of the reasons for even having TPG's. But it makes it awfully hard to consider a grade for a simple raw card when considering trades/selling these days. Particularly in the VG, VGEX, EX condition area. And yes, I know everyone has their own opinion on what grade a card should be, e.g. the seller almost always thinks his card is a higher grade than what the buyer perceives. It's human nature I'm just looking for a standard relevant go-to grading guide for raw cards. Bottom line, what guide are raw card collectors using in todays world?

For raw cards, it depends upon whether you want to use the traditional grading standards, or the post-covid ones currently being employed by the TPGs. Yesterday's "5" is today's "3", so they've rendered the grading scale meaningless.

[ASF123]

Originally Posted by obcbeatle

Bottom line, what guide are raw card collectors using in todays world?

Nothing is higher than VG-EX. You might think I'm being snarky, but I'm a raw collector, and that's literally the standard I use. Given how ridiculously punitive and arbitrary TPGs are (SGC seems better than PSA from what I've seen online), I won't pay more than a 4 comp, maaaaybe a 5 if it looks absolutely beautiful.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by obcbeatle

The reason I ask is that I'm seeing a LOT of TPG graded cards that look VGEX to me, but are graded Poor.

One thing to be aware of is that images of cards posted online can be very deceiving. A card gets a PR 1 grade for a reason. No VGEX card is mistakenly graded a 1. If you are seeing nice looking cards that get a 1 grade, you are most likely unable to see a pretty major flaw in the pictures. While grading companies do seem to be a bit harsher these days, the stated grading standards haven't changed all that much. So you are looking for the same things in a VGEX card today as you were back then.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

One thing to be aware of is that images of cards posted online can be very deceiving. A card gets a PR 1 grade for a reason. No VGEX card is mistakenly graded a 1. If you are seeing nice looking cards that get a 1 grade, you are most likely unable to see a pretty major flaw in the pictures. While grading companies do seem to be a bit harsher these days, the stated grading standards haven't changed all that much. So you are looking for the same things in a VGEX card today as you were back then.

Strongly disagree...

Yesterday's "4" (obvious creasing, paper loss, round corners, heavy soiling, dull color, poor registration):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/145235228744


Today's "4" (no creasing or wrinkles, no paper loss, no soiling, good corners, great color and registration):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/375976800862

Make no mistake... The grading standards have changed by 2-3 full points over the past decade.

[swarmee]

I'll say those 1s probably have water damage that has corrupted the makeup of the cardboard itself to get that grade. Sometimes they get Poor instead of "Altered Stock" which would merit an Authentic Altered sometimes.

Another option is a small pinhole or two; sometimes those can now get 2s if the rest of the card looks EX/MT.

[obcbeatle]

Thank you for all the replies, very helpful. One thing I did over the weekend was look at recent eBay sales of raw cards by gmcards vg-vgex, to see what people are paying for that grade. He seems to grade somewhere between old SCD guidelines and PSA, at least for that specific grade. Although as mentioned here, seeing condition online can be problematic. Thanks again!

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by ASF123

Nothing is higher than VG-EX. You might think I'm being snarky, but I'm a raw collector, and that's literally the standard I use. Given how ridiculously punitive and arbitrary TPGs are (SGC seems better than PSA from what I've seen online), I won't pay more than a 4 comp, maaaaybe a 5 if it looks absolutely beautiful.

Not snarky at all, just realistic. I do the exact same.

[Mrc32]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Strongly disagree...

Yesterday's "4" (obvious creasing, paper loss, round corners, heavy soiling, dull color, poor registration):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/145235228744


Today's "4" (no creasing or wrinkles, no paper loss, no soiling, good corners, great color and registration):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/375976800862

Make no mistake... The grading standards have changed by 2-3 full points over the past decade.

Wow. If that doesn't just sum up card grading I don't know what does

[StraightRaceCards]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Strongly disagree...

Yesterday's "4" (obvious creasing, paper loss, round corners, heavy soiling, dull color, poor registration):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/145235228744


Today's "4" (no creasing or wrinkles, no paper loss, no soiling, good corners, great color and registration):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/375976800862

Make no mistake... The grading standards have changed by 2-3 full points over the past decade.

Totally agree here.

I think there is definitely an opportunity to capitalize on buying nice raw cards if you can score a deal and grade them.

As a collector with a more limited budget in mind, this has allowed me to pick up a few nicer copies of cards with an overall less price after grading compared to buying a card straight up.

That being said you definitely are hoping graders grade consistently which can be a problem.

I’m not the best at eyeballing cards, but I stick to the motto of, “what would be the worst grade this card could feasibly get” and use that to ballpark comps of raw cards + $15 for SGC grading

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Strongly disagree...

Yesterday's "4" (obvious creasing, paper loss, round corners, heavy soiling, dull color, poor registration):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/145235228744


Today's "4" (no creasing or wrinkles, no paper loss, no soiling, good corners, great color and registration):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/375976800862

Make no mistake... The grading standards have changed by 2-3 full points over the past decade.

Those are outlier examples and are in no way indicative of the average or standard for that grade, then or now. You can find images of 4s from 25 years ago that look just like your second example, and pictures of cards from today that look like your first one. I agree that grading has overall gotten a little harsher, it is not nearly as extreme as your outliers make it appear. Never use the exception to prove the rule.

[ASF123]

Originally Posted by StraightRaceCards

I’m not the best at eyeballing cards, but I stick to the motto of, “what would be the worst grade this card could feasibly get” and use that to ballpark comps of raw cards + $15 for SGC grading

Close, but you’re missing a step:

“What would be the worst grade this card could feasibly get, **then subtract a full grade.**”

[StraightRaceCards]

Originally Posted by ASF123

Close, but you’re missing a step:

“What would be the worst grade this card could feasibly get, **then subtract a full grade.**”

Sad but probably right

[ullmandds]

it really depends what the cards are? I just submitted 7 items to psa...i world series ticket stub form game 1 1923 ws...5 quaker ruth premiums and 1 butterfinger ruth. I knew all items are real...and in poor condition...and that's what ultimately PSA told me.

Yet I paid PSA over 1400 to tell me what I already know...just to resell them!

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Those are outlier examples and are in no way indicative of the average or standard for that grade, then or now. You can find images of 4s from 25 years ago that look just like your second example, and pictures of cards from today that look like your first one. I agree that grading has overall gotten a little harsher, it is not nearly as extreme as your outliers make it appear. Never use the exception to prove the rule.

Not outliers...

You are obviously a big fan of TPG, but it took me no time at all to find that egregious example. Could've found a bunch more that were equally ridiculous if I had the time. Even the biggest PSA apologist would admit the standards are a MINIMUM of 2 points different than a decade ago. PSA is lying (shocker) when they tell you it's not.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Not outliers...

You are obviously a big fan of TPG, but it took me no time at all to find that egregious example. Could've found a bunch more that were equally ridiculous if I had the time. Even the biggest PSA apologist would admit the standards are a MINIMUM of 2 points different than a decade ago. PSA is lying (shocker) when they tell you it's not.

LOL

Obviously.

As a matter of fact, I don't like grading, prefer my cards raw, and crack out nearly every graded card I own.

But obviously I'm a fan of grading. Nice observation, detective.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by StraightRaceCards

Totally agree here.

I think there is definitely an opportunity to capitalize on buying nice raw cards if you can score a deal and grade them.

As a collector with a more limited budget in mind, this has allowed me to pick up a few nicer copies of cards with an overall less price after grading compared to buying a card straight up.

That being said you definitely are hoping graders grade consistently which can be a problem.

I’m not the best at eyeballing cards, but I stick to the motto of, “what would be the worst grade this card could feasibly get” and use that to ballpark comps of raw cards + $15 for SGC grading

This is what I am seeing at recent shows. Dealers that are selling raw are capitalizing on this. Graded cards just seem to sit at shows.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

LOL

Obviously.

As a matter of fact, I don't like grading, prefer my cards raw, and crack out nearly every graded card I own.

But obviously I'm a fan of grading. Nice observation, detective.

If you are anti-grading, I stand corrected. But here's another example that took 2 minutes to find....

Early graded PSA "4"...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/13545328130...Bk9SR5yJ_LqoZQ

More recently graded PSA "2"...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/27583459277...Bk9SR4i4o7uoZQ

If both were raw/ungraded and priced the same.... I'd take the "2" as it is slightly better.

[JollyElm]

I've written about this before, but it bears repeating...

Be very careful when you're looking to buy an ungraded card in a dealer's case when (virtually) everything else is sitting inside of a slab.
Big red flag (your experience may vary).

If everything is graded, then why wouldn't the expensive Mickey Mantle (for example) be graded, too, since all the cards in slabs were submitted recently?
Did he submit that one with the rest and it got 'rejected' by the TPG, but he's not disclosing why?

I saw this a lot recently with cases full of SGC cards. Since they have such quick turnaround and are (you may or may not agree) inexpensive to grade,
dealers were obviously sending everything off to get them back in time for shows.
But there would be a lone Willie Mays or Sandy Koufax card sitting among them in a top loader, not graded. Sure, there may be legitimate reasons for it, but you have to ask yourself (or the dealer), "Why??"

At a minimum, make sure you have a newer card on hand to make sure it (Topps-era card) is the correct size (not short or miscut).

Absolutely something to keep in mind (no disrespect to dealers intended).

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I've written about this before, but it bears repeating...

Be very careful when you're looking to buy an ungraded card in a dealer's case when (virtually) everything else is sitting inside of a slab.
Big red flag (your experience may vary).

If everything is graded, then why wouldn't the expensive Mickey Mantle (for example) be graded, too, since all the cards in slabs were submitted recently?
Did he submit that one with the rest and it got 'rejected' by the TPG, but he's not disclosing why?

I saw this a lot recently with cases full of SGC cards. Since they have such quick turnaround and are (you may or may not agree) inexpensive to grade,
dealers were obviously sending everything off to get them back in time for shows.
But there would be a lone Willie Mays or Sandy Koufax card sitting among them in a top loader, not graded. Sure, there may be legitimate reasons for it, but you have to ask yourself (or the dealer), "Why??"

At a minimum, make sure you have a newer card on hand to make sure it (Topps-era card) is the correct size (not short or miscut).

Absolutely something to keep in mind (no disrespect to dealers intended).

That's a good point and not something I had thought about before.

[Beercan collector]

Here’s a head scratcher - you can get a legitimate 8 Brett in the $600-$750 range , The only way the winning bidder is coming out ahead here is if he knows somebody in the grading industry - this card is not at eight - Not because of the tuft of fuzz at the bottom left corner but also the general surface wear in the same area - bidder is losing money unless he gets bogus 8.5 or 9