1930's Debut Year Baseball Autographs, MOST RARE

[JimStinson]

I get asked this quite a bit, Who are the ALL TIME toughest baseball players autographs ? Based on the want lists I've gotten over the years, I covered the 1940's and 50's toughies in a previous thread on this board. Now for the 1930's. ALL would likely sell for more than most Hall of Fame players from the same era even though almost all of them were barely in the major leagues long enough for a "cup of coffee" The numbers next to the name are based on my research and conversations with long time collectors with regards to ANY examples of the players mentioned existing in private collections. Have listed by debut year

1930
Charles Small (Died-1953)(a couple)
Ray Treadaway (Died-1935)(none)

1931
Orlin Collier (Died-1944)(none)
Walt Murphy (Died-1976)(none)

1932
Charlie Biggs (Died-1954)(none)
Regis Leheny (Died-1976)(none)
Dick Terwilliger (Died-1969)(none)

1934
Orville Armbrust (Died-1967)(none)
Junie Barnes (Died-1963) (Maybe one)
Chick Wiedemeyer (Died-1979)(Maybe one)

1938
Tom Lanning (Died-1967) (A few)

1939
Harry O'Neill (Killed in action Iwo Jima 1945)(A few)

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

I get asked this quite a bit, Who are the ALL TIME toughest baseball players autographs ? Based on the want lists I've gotten over the years, I covered the 1940's and 50's toughies in a previous thread on this board. Now for the 1930's. ALL would likely sell for more than most Hall of Fame players from the same era even though almost all of them were barely in the major leagues long enough for a "cup of coffee" The numbers next to the name are based on my research and conversations with long time collectors with regards to ANY examples of the players mentioned existing in private collections. Have listed by debut year

1930
Charles Small (Died-1953)(a couple)
Ray Treadaway (Died-1935)(none)

1931
Orlin Collier (Died-1944)(none)
Walt Murphy (Died-1976)(none)

1932
Charlie Biggs (Died-1954)(none)
Regis Leheny (Died-1976)(none)
Dick Terwilliger (Died-1969)(none)

1934
Orville Armbrust (Died-1967)(none)
Junie Barnes (Died-1963) (Maybe one)
Chick Wiedemeyer (Died-1979)(Maybe one)

1938
Tom Lanning (Died-1967) (A few)

1939
Harry O'Neill (Killed in action Iwo Jima 1945)(A few)

Very interesting. It is stunning that players who survived into the 60s and 70s and lived in the United States could have no known exemplars. They must have really hated signing!

[JimStinson]

I think its more due to the fact that they had short careers and then just VANISHED. In some cases it was not even documented that they were deceased until recently.

[travrosty]

Some times it is because that they were never asked for their autograph because they played in only a few games. It is amazing how family members won't have any autographs because it all gets thrown away. Family members frequently say that they never thought to save any autographs, because it their dad, who asks their dad for an autograph?

minnesota boxers art lasky and charley retzlaff have similar stories. family members don't have their autographs because they just simply didnt think of it to save any because they had no idea autographs would be worth money in the future.

[HexsHeroes]

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Jack Smalling has (had) a smallish pencil-signed example on a lined team sheet.

Kevin Keating sold one within the past twelve months (November 2011 ?) that had a bold ink single signature on one side of an album page.

An eBay bidder has a 1935 Montreal team signed (not single signed) baseball (on the sweet spot), after contacting the seller, who in turn offered to sell the signed ball to bidder for $500, which bidder accepted (and auction ended early, at which time there were only two bidders). I was the other bidder, and not offered ball since first bidder accepted seller's offer.

A fourth Collier example, a bold ink signature on an album page cut, is in the hands of yet another collector.

[mschwade]

Anxiously waiting for the 1920's list. Thanks for posting these Jim!

[JimStinson]

Thanks Vince I was not aware that some Colliers autographs had surfaced. Matt I might skip the 1920's list because it starts to get REALLY long.
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[mschwade]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

Thanks Vince I was not aware that some Colliers autographs had surfaced. Matt I might skip the 1920's list because it starts to get REALLY long.
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How about 1920's with no known examples? Maybe still too long? Either way, thank you!

[ss]

Please don't skip it Jim, this is great stuff!

[prewarsports]

The 1920's list would be VERY large, probably at least 100 names with none or maybe 1 example known. and another 50-100 names with a couple known. Autograph collecting started to get big among Baseball players in the early 1930's so you have a chance at getting some of the toughies. Most of the guys in the 1920's would have to be tracked down after their careers ended because there just were not people asking them for their autographs while they played which makes the collecting of that era 100X more difficult than the 1930's.

Rhys

[Orioles1954]

Who has more...Elmer Gedeon or Bob Neighbors?

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

Very interesting. It is stunning that players who survived into the 60s and 70s and lived in the United States could have no known exemplars. They must have really hated signing!

Mr. Collier:

http://oct09.hugginsandscott.com/cgi...l?itemid=14282

[HexsHeroes]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Mr. Collier:

http://oct09.hugginsandscott.com/cgi...l?itemid=14282

. . . the example that Kevin Keating (Quality Autographs & Memorabilia of Virginia) had available for sale last year for $2950. On the other side of the Collier single-signed side were the Murray Red Howell + 7 teammates signatures. The Collier is a beautifully bold signature.

[HexsHeroes]

.

. . . I'd vote that the Gedeon may be the "scarcer" of the two. Over the past 15 years, I recall seeing Bob Neighbors examples offered more times than Elmer Gedeon. But "more times" still means less than 5 or 6 occurrences. Other than the Gedeon example that Kevin Keating has, and the one by our own OC member Orioles1954, I think I have only viewed one other example offered for sale (a Mike Gutierrez auction, maybe?). Either way, both are tough autographs.

[stat192]

Just reviving this old thread. I picked up these Charles Wiedemeyer autographs in yesterdays Robert Edwards Auction. Jim Stinson said in this post maybe one exists. I honestly never thought I would find one, let alone two. Open to trade or sell one if any one needs him

[prewarsports]

I saw that lot and figured it might slip through the cracks but had no idea there were two in there! Great pickup!

[HexsHeroes]

.
Love it when some of these older posts get a fresh breath of air.

I would be curious to know if/how much Jim's initial estimates have changed over the past 12 years.

[prewarsports]

Now I need to find my Heilbronner informational card signed by "Robert Dietz" and I will call it a Charles Weidemeyer!

[gonefishin]

I know this player missed the era by 2 years, but I wanted to post and see if this one is rare. It is of Charlie "Chip" Marshall who played 1 game in the major leagues for the Cardinals in 1941. He played mainly in the minors from 1937-42. Any thoughts of the rarity?

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Extremely common. Great signer and lived a long time.

[stat192]

I really wonder why a player would have used a fake name while playing in the minors back then

[Hankphenom]

I wonder if many of the players from the 1920s and 30s with no known examples are due to the simple fact that they never learned to write, not even their names. I don't think that was uncommon in that time, especially with many players coming out of rural and backwoods area.

[prewarsports]

Most of the fake names were to retain their 'amateur' status if they were playing college sports under their actual name or to hide the fact that they were playing professional baseball from their parents if it was frowned upon in their family circle.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I wonder if many of the players from the 1920s and 30s with no known examples are due to the simple fact that they never learned to write, not even their names. I don't think that was uncommon in that time, especially with many players coming out of rural and backwoods area.

I would confidently place money on my exemplar file for this period being the most extensive in existence. With that in mind, I can assure you that illiteracy, at least insofar as signing one's name is concerned, was happily not present within the MLB fraternity (the Negro Leaguers may be an entirely different matter altogether; I am just commenting on the actual Major Leagues, not the revamped, politically correct version of the Major Leagues).

Also, off the top of my head, there isn't a single 1920-onward player for whom at least one exemplar does not exist. This is of course different from any of their autographs being in private hands. If there are any players from this time period for whom nothing exists, not even a draft registration card, I am completely forgetting them. This doesn't seem like something I would forget. If I am wrong in this, the number of players would be absolutely minuscule.

[stat192]

If anyone has any of these debut autos for sale, I will pay generously, this are last 7 I need to complete my 1933 to present autograph collection

1933
Charlie Butler Phillies

1934
Bill Perrin Indians

1935
Whitey Ock Dodgers

1937
Jerry Lynn 87 Senators / Salisbury Indians

1939
Johnny Echols Cardinals

1944
JOHN FICK 58 PHLLIES

1945
JACK PHILLIPS 58 GIANTS

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

I would confidently place money on my exemplar file for this period being the most extensive in existence. With that in mind, I can assure you that illiteracy, at least insofar as signing one's name is concerned, was happily not present within the MLB fraternity (the Negro Leaguers may be an entirely different matter altogether; I am just commenting on the actual Major Leagues, not the revamped, politically correct version of the Major Leagues). Also, off the top of my head, there isn't a single 1920-onward player for whom at least one exemplar does not exist. This is of course different from any of their autographs being in private hands. If there are any players from this time period for whom nothing exists, not even a draft registration card, I am completely forgetting them. This doesn't seem like something I would forget. If I am wrong in this, the number of players would be absolutely minuscule.

Interesting, and thanks for the information. I must have overestimated the amount of illiteracy a hundred years ago. I'm not sure why you think it would be different for the Negro League players. Incidentally, my friend's father was very close to Billy Cox.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

The chances of illiteracy would unfortunately have been greater with African Americans just due to so much less afforded to them 100+ years ago. Just an uncomfortable truth.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

To be clear, there must have been some Major Leaguers from that era who were functionally illiterate beyond signing their names and perhaps a few basic other words.

Sometimes, what you see isn't always what you get. I recall seeing the autograph of a man named Jerry Standaert for the first time many years ago. During his playing days, he had signed a 3X5 in 1929 and also added "Boston Red Soxs" (actual spelling). It appeared to have taken him half an hour to write these things; lots of stops and starts in strange places, almost between every letter. Clearly, based on all of this, one would surmise that Mr. Standaert had to be pretty close to illiterate.

Some years later, I unearthed an impressively large trove of handwritten player questionnaires from the 1920's that were gathering dust in a library. I drove over ten hours specifically to check all of these out. There was one from Standaert. In a slightly less labored hand (and in pencil, which maybe he was more comfortable using), he wrote an entire page of words. It should be noted there were no spelling mistakes, either.

Later on, I also discovered a questionnaire that one of his relatives had completed for a baseball researcher after his death. He is listed as having a 10th grade education.

Then, there is the truly perplexing. Take the case of Champ Osteen. He signed his WWI draft registration with an X mark, yet I know that he was literate, could sign his name and had two years of college education! Furthermore, while 99+% of these documents were filled out by someone else, then signed at the bottom by the player, this one certainly appears to have been filled out by Osteen himself! And I am not even sure what's going on with the fact that someone else signed their name at the bottom, then it was crossed out and signed by Osteen. Attached is also a much later Osteen signed 3X5. While the infirmities of age definitely affected some letter formations, the similarities in many of them speak for themselves (compare with the "James Champ Osteen" at the top of the document). Right down to placing dots in strange places! "James. Champ" and "Champ. Osteen.". I think I even see a faint dot between Champ and Osteen on the draft card. Figure all of that out! I sure can't. Maybe he had a strange sense of humor in signing with an X? Maybe he was trying to claim illiteracy in an effort to not be drafted? Either way, he was 41 years old when he signed the document, so his chances of having to serve were not really even an issue.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

The chances of illiteracy would unfortunately have been greater with African Americans just due to so much less afforded to them 100+ years ago. Just an uncomfortable truth.

Perhaps, but there also would have been a relatively larger pool of poor whites who grew up in equally hard-scrabble circumstances as many of the black players, i.e. on tenant farms, in mining communities, etc., places where kids never went to school or left at very young ages to go to work. And given that the country was 90% white at the time, I would surmise that the number of white illiterate ballplayers would have far exceeded the number of black illiterate ballplayers.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Perhaps, but there also would have been a relatively larger pool of poor whites who grew up in equally hard-scrabble circumstances as many of the black players, i.e. on tenant farms, in mining communities, etc., places where kids never went to school or left at very young ages to go to work. And given that the country was 90% white at the time, I would surmise that the number of white illiterate ballplayers would have far exceeded the number of black illiterate ballplayers.

What you say certainly makes a lot of sense. We unfortunately will only be able to speculate on this as opposed to ever being able to offer the world anything concrete. There are so many Negro Leaguers for whom full basic data is missing. Common names, no middle names on file, let alone DOB/DOD...the picture will likely never be fully formed for every NL'er.

Conversely, we do have a full list of MLB players from this 1920's-30's era. While there will continuously be fine tweaking of some of this data until the end of time, we generally know where and when they were all born and passed away. On top of that, over more than 30 years, I have collected post-baseball career info (their lines of work) and causes of death for almost all from this period. As noted, they were all capable of signing their names and I am certain I've seen all of their autographs in my years of doing this. I've also owned the vast majority of them at some point in time, albeit not all at once! Again, I do want to make room for the fact that a scant name or two could possibly be escaping me; like the rest of us, my memory is not as razor-sharp as it was in my youth!

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

What you say certainly makes a lot of sense. We unfortunately will only be able to speculate on this as opposed to ever being able to offer the world anything concrete. There are so many Negro Leaguers for whom full basic data is missing. Common names, no middle names on file, let alone DOB/DOD...the picture will likely never be fully formed for every NL'er. Conversely, we do have a full list of MLB players from this 1920's-30's era. While there will continuously be fine tweaking of some of this data until the end of time, we generally know where and when they were all born and passed away. On top of that, over more than 30 years, I have collected post-baseball career info (their lines of work) and causes of death for almost all from this period. As noted, they were all capable of signing their names and I am certain I've seen all of their autographs in my years of doing this. I've also owned the vast majority of them at some point in time, albeit not all at once! Again, I do want to make room for the fact that a scant name or two could possibly be escaping me; like the rest of us, my memory is not as razor-sharp as it was in my youth!

I grew up thinking that marking one's name with an "X" was not an uncommon thing, but it seems from what you say that it was rare indeed. Instead of Joe Jackson just being the most prominent of players unable to sign or only with great difficulty, he was actually one of the very few. Thanks for the information.

[Brent G.]

Very interesting that things have come full circle: Many modern ballplayers -- more and more as time passes -- have no idea how to sign their name due to the removal of cursive writing from education, and indecipherable squiggles now serve as signatures/autographs.

[gonefishin]

Question for those that collect autographs, does anyone have a want list or rare autographs for other sports such as basketball, football, etc.?

[prewarsports]

There are collectors trying to get the members of their respective Halls of Fame (basketball, football, college football, hockey etc.) but I am not aware of anyone trying to get a signature of EVERYONE from any sport aside from baseball.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Some times it is because that they were never asked for their autograph because they played in only a few games. It is amazing how family members won't have any autographs because it all gets thrown away. Family members frequently say that they never thought to save any autographs, because it their dad, who asks their dad for an autograph?

minnesota boxers art lasky and charley retzlaff have similar stories. family members don't have their autographs because they just simply didnt think of it to save any because they had no idea autographs would be worth money in the future.

Dad wasn't a ball player or anything.
Oddly, one thing we bought for him was a 53 national jamboree neckerchief that he had signed at the time. It came up a long time later on ebay, and probably came from the estate of one of the other kids in the troop.

[jimtb]

There are four 1930’s Tigers autographs that I am patiently looking for:
Johnny Watson 1930
John Grabowski 1931
George Quellich 1931
Orlin Collier 1931

[HexsHeroes]

Originally Posted by jimtb

There are four 1930’s Tigers autographs that I am patiently looking for:
Johnny Watson 1930
John Grabowski 1931
George Quellich 1931
Orlin Collier 1931

.
.
That is a tough shopping list. Especially considering that John Grabowski might be the “most likely” of the four you encounter first.

[JimStinson]

Quite surprised to see a 10 year old post "come back from the dead" (smile). Thanks too to those that shared their examples, knowledge and opinions. In the ten years or so since this original post several large collections have been offered up for sale and many names that were thought to not exist finally saw the light of day.
A couple things I might add to what's already been said. Regarding pre 1930's debut toughies. I used to own quite a few and sold many of them decades ago and while I don't claim to know EVERYTHING that goes on in the hobby I find it unusual that MOST have never resurfaced. As for the post 1930 names as time goes by occasionally, they turn up sometimes even by accident, lost in the shuffle of group lots. Usually, YEARS apart. To address another point the autographs of the older Negro League players are scarce IMHO based on my research of the Negro Leagues is simply THEY WERE RARELY ASKED nor was it a common practice to sign an autograph for a fan. Sadly too the mindset of the time thanks to the Jim Crow mentality that existed made it unusual for a fan that was not "of color" to request an autograph from an athlete who was. Many of them too spent half the year in other leagues in other countries where play was integrated with some either dying there or taking up permanent residence. Add also the fact that major league baseball propagated the myth that anything other than THE MAJOR LEAGUES was an inferior league. Later as I remember even going into the 1980's very few collectors focused their attention in that area, and had it not been for a small handful that did in the 1960's. Many of those autographs would not exist today.
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Always BUYING Vintage Autographs
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[jimmyfoxx]

I recently bought an album with loads of 1928-1932 signatures including Charlie Sullivan (d.1935) and Regis Leheny.