The Rosen '52 find

[talkinbaseball]

Leon, feel free to move this thread, I was wondering why the Mantles that were graded never had a pedigree to that find?
Thanks,
John

[mightyq]

PSA wasn't really doing that at the time, i think the first pedigree might have been the burdick collection, i could be wrong.

[marzoumanian]

The late Al Rosen was definitely NOT a collector like Mr. Burdick and Mr. Copeland.
I just pulled out his "True Mint," written in 1994. Here's a paragraph I thought you would get a kick out of (from page 33):
"I placed an advertisement in SCD [in 1986] trying to sell the [1952] Mantles for $3500 each, perfectly centered gem mint cards...I didn't sell any Mantles at that price. I was crushed. So I started blowing them out and most of them I sold to dealers for $2000 each. The last 10 I sold to John Broggi of JKJ Sports Collectibles. He paid me $12,500 for 10 of them."
For Rosen it was all about making deals and money. That's not a knock, by the way. Just the way he was.
As you know, today Broggi runs the National.
Times have changed, right?

[theuclakid]

whole runs of high numbers were offered for $12000....I passed as it was a lot for my family back then....and no, not all of the 52 Mantles were centered...still an exciting find as was the 1953 Topps cards #1-86 a few years later from a Canadian dealer (case of wax boxes opened, packs opened)...I did get a couple Mantles and Robinsons from that find.......I had called the dealer about an ad in SCD, and he just happened to mention he had these 53 Topps....years later (1996) I got one each of the Mantles and Robinsons graded, they both received 9's...the Mantle was the last one to get a 9 until 2016....Bruce Perry

[whitehse]

I remember the Rosen find and laughing at his asking price. Someone please find me a time machine....quick....

[Jobu]

Instead of going back to 1986, I hope you'd go back to 1952 instead.

Originally Posted by whitehse

I remember the Rosen find and laughing at his asking price. Someone please find me a time machine....quick....

[ASF123]

Originally Posted by Jobu

Instead of going back to 1986, I hope you'd go back to 1952 instead.

Yep. Stand by the Hudson River and wait for Sy Berger to come along on his forklift.

[maniac_73]

Originally Posted by Jobu

Instead of going back to 1986, I hope you'd go back to 1952 instead.

Where's my Delorean?

[Fetamore]

I too remember the Rosen find. Seeing his ad in SCD, I immediately called Him to see if he would sell me one of each Phillies and As cards, he did. Then he said he still had one complete set left. I could have it for $12,000. I had 3 children under 8 hrs old and a stay at home wife who would have killed me. I thought about it and passed. Just one of many bad card collecting decisions in my past.

[MikeGarcia]

Originally Posted by Jobu

Instead of going back to 1986, I hope you'd go back to 1952 instead.

...



....Late September , early October , 1952 : ......you could buy three "FIVE CENTS " packs of those high number last series 1952 Topps Baseball Gum Cards or...... one of these...



....

[Tabe]

Are there any pictures of the find? Not individual cards but the big lot before being broken up?

[marzoumanian]

I just pulled out "True Mint" again. In the section about the 1952 Topps find you will find a gem mint Mantle photo and a gem mint Leo Durocher photo. In black and white. That's it. Rosen describes the guy with all the cards in Quincy, Mass., coming out with them on a big silver tray, "covered with cards piled high, 15 or 20 piles. I remember the cards were piled so high that I couldn't see over the top."
Unfortunately Rosen didn't expect to see this so he didn't bring a camera. As he tells it, all he cared about was the Mantles.
The book is definitely worth a read and I am sure you can pick it up pretty cheap on Amazon. He tells some amazing stories. Good luck and peace.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Are there any pictures of the find? Not individual cards but the big lot before being broken up?

In case you haven't seen this?
https://www.psacard.com/articles/art...-baseball-find

And another Net54 thread about the find here.
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=276271

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by irv

In case you haven't seen this?
https://www.psacard.com/articles/art...-baseball-find

And another Net54 thread about the find here.
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=276271

Thanks. Yes, I'd seen those. Great stuff but not quite what I was hoping for. Perhaps not surprising that a guy with no sense of sentiment didn't record anything for posterity.

[Directly]

If you haven't seen this interview

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjckQNXP4Gs

[jimjim]

I’ve heard the story countless times, but I just watch the YouTube video. Can somebody clarify when Al Rosen said he paid the guy 10% instead of 20%... was that 10% of book value? If so, that’s insane.

[ocjack]

I think I recall Rosen saying in an interview that he sells cards because he can make money doing it. That if he could sell apples and make a huge profit, he would sell apples. So you're right, he had no "feelings" for the hobby other than as a way to make money.

[SteveWhite]

Beckett #8 from 1986 page 267, it lists the 1952 Mickey Mantle high book at $2,900, middle $900, and low book at $250.

[flpm08]

I also remember the Rosen '52 find. Paul Lewicki , a card dealer and associate of Rosen, called me and offered the high number run for $12,000. I asked him what the Mantle was like. He said off-center and so I passed. I also think that find may have included 251 through 310, the semi-high series. The find that I remember more vividly was the Kansas City find of September 1985. This find i think included the last series 181-252 of 1950 Bowmans, 1951 Bowmans, 1952 Bowmans, 1953 Bowmans, 1952 Topps and maybe 1953 Topps. I happened to be visiting New Jersey at the time ( I live in California) and called John Broggi who I met at the 1985 National in Anaheim. He said " you would not believe what I got". I drove right down to his shop in Highland Park and I bought some beautiful 1952 Topps and 1953 Bowmans and eventually bought many 1951 Bowmans. I do not remember whether the find included high number 1952 Topps. Those were the days. Frank Martorana

[Johnny T]

When I was a kid, I bought all of my cards from John Broggi. From his store in Highland Park as well as his booth on the Rt 1 Flea Market in New Brunswick NJ. Memories.

[Johnny T]

My first "real" card I bought from John was a 1964 Topps Rose at his booth in the flea market. I paid $19...early 80's...when I showed my mother what I bought and how much I paid she flipped out! I said "I'm simply traded paper (money) for cardboard"...always the salesman. Anyway, my Mom walked me over to John's booth and kind of layed into him, thinking he took advantage of a kid. He convinced her what I bought was a good purchase and that the value would "double" in 6 months. It did! Sold that card and the rest of my collection when I went to college and used the proceeds to buy my first car. Now I'm in the process of buying all of those cards back (at the price of a house) as a mid 50's adult. Funny how things come full circle. Wonder how Broggi is doing these days.

[Gary Dunaier]

Originally Posted by Jobu

Instead of going back to 1986, I hope you'd go back to 1952 instead.

Originally Posted by ASF123

Yep. Stand by the Hudson River and wait for Sy Berger to come along on his forklift.

If you're going to do that, you need to go back to 1960 or so because that's when he dumped the unsold '52s.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by Johnny T

My first "real" card I bought from John was a 1964 Topps Rose at his booth in the flea market. I paid $19...early 80's...when I showed my mother what I bought and how much I paid she flipped out! I said "I'm simply traded paper (money) for cardboard"...always the salesman. Anyway, my Mom walked me over to John's booth and kind of layed into him, thinking he took advantage of a kid. He convinced her what I bought was a good purchase and that the value would "double" in 6 months. It did! Sold that card and the rest of my collection when I went to college and used the proceeds to buy my first car. Now I'm in the process of buying all of those cards back (at the price of a house) as a mid 50's adult. Funny how things come full circle. Wonder how Broggi is doing these days.

John is doing just fine as co-promoter of the NSCC (National).

Rich

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Gary Dunaier

If you're going to do that, you need to go back to 1960 or so because that's when he dumped the unsold '52s.

Always best to go back in time before cards get all moist.

Brian (time travelling back right now to hopefully score some Cracker Jack cards before their contact with caramel)

[samosa4u]

I NEVER get tired of reading about Rosen and "the find." This is such a fascinating subject!

I was only two-years-old when all of this took place. But if I had been a grown man, and Rosen had offered me a NM set, I would have probably declined too because I am a cheap SOB.

By the way, how many books and articles did Rosen write and which one is the best to read?

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

I was only two-years-old when all of this took place. But if I had been a grown man, and Rosen had offered me a NM set, I would have probably declined too because I am a cheap SOB.

Yeah, me too. I turned down a beautiful 1952 Mantle at $1000. I just couldn't imagine spending that much on one card!

[marzoumanian]

The first was "Mr. Mint's Guide to Investing in Baseball Cards."
The second was "True Mint."
I read them both YEARS ago.
Rosen was not an article writer, I assure you.
Of the two books I would go with "True Mint" because he tells about 25 stories focusing on his finds. Some of them are amazing/wild. The second half of the book is a ranking of hard to collect Topps sets (in terms of condition) and pricing (outdated, obviously). It was written in 1994 BUT still is worth buying on Amazon for the stories of his finds and the quirky people/travel adventures he had back in the 1980s.
Good luck.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by Johnny T

My first "real" card I bought from John was a 1964 Topps Rose at his booth in the flea market. I paid $19...early 80's...when I showed my mother what I bought and how much I paid she flipped out! I said "I'm simply traded paper (money) for cardboard"...always the salesman. Anyway, my Mom walked me over to John's booth and kind of layed into him, thinking he took advantage of a kid. He convinced her what I bought was a good purchase and that the value would "double" in 6 months. It did!

He handled that better than I would've at the time. Once when I was set up at a show during the junk wax era, a kid (maybe 12) walked up with his mother and asked me a price on something in a 25% off Beckett box, which I quoted him without having to look it up.

Mom drags him away saying something like "don't believe that cause people will tell you anything" (practically to my face). I respond with a dagger glare and hold out the current Beckett, telling her she's more than welcome to check what I said. That was ignored and they walked on.

Obviously you need to teach kids to avoid getting screwed over, but that message of simply "the salesman is a POS and must be lying" is horrible, lazy parenting on many levels. Show your kids how to figure out what's good and what isn't, instead of always assuming the worst.

[steve B]

Mr mint was at one of the shows I helped work. I was at a table about 12 ft away and got to watch him work.

Just not my kind of guy, all hype and puffery. He did know his cards though.

[Collectorsince62]

Rosen was at a show in St. Louis manning a table. When I walked up he asked me what I was looking for and I told him I needed one card to finish a mint '62 Topps set. The term "near mint" hadn't been coined yet. I knew the types of cards he handled and knew he certainly wouldn't have the 7th series checklist I needed. To this day I'm still astonished by what happened next. He reaches behind him and pulls out a box filled with nothing but '62 Topps 7th series checklists, all in perfect condition. It was like a magic act. Why he had about 100 of that card, the only card I was hunting for that day, is still bewildering. I have other stories about some of his shenanigans at St. Louis shows, but the checklist story I had to share.

[ALBB]

yea, lotta storys about Rosen...

He insisted his table was the first one that customers saw as they walked into big shows

He made a big stink when one promoter didnt give him the the " best table"

He threatened ..and various time ..never to to a show again...never to set up at " so and so's" shows, etc..

I remember the time I called him to sell stuff...left a message....he called me back later...and to annoy him, I pretended I didnt know who he was ! LOL. I kept saying loudly " Who ? , Mr. What ? " !!

[MK]

Originally Posted by flpm08

I also remember the Rosen '52 find. Paul Lewicki , a card dealer and associate of Rosen, called me and offered the high number run for $12,000. I asked him what the Mantle was like. He said off-center and so I passed. I also think that find may have included 251 through 310, the semi-high series. The find that I remember more vividly was the Kansas City find of September 1985. This find i think included the last series 181-252 of 1950 Bowmans, 1951 Bowmans, 1952 Bowmans, 1953 Bowmans, 1952 Topps and maybe 1953 Topps. I happened to be visiting New Jersey at the time ( I live in California) and called John Broggi who I met at the 1985 National in Anaheim. He said " you would not believe what I got". I drove right down to his shop in Highland Park and I bought some beautiful 1952 Topps and 1953 Bowmans and eventually bought many 1951 Bowmans. I do not remember whether the find included high number 1952 Topps. Those were the days. Frank Martorana

So are there any written accounts of the Kansas City find like there are the Rosen find? I’ve heard of it, but really don’t know the particulars.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by marzoumanian

The first was "Mr. Mint's Guide to Investing in Baseball Cards."
The second was "True Mint."
I read them both YEARS ago.
Rosen was not an article writer, I assure you.
Of the two books I would go with "True Mint" because he tells about 25 stories focusing on his finds. Some of them are amazing/wild. The second half of the book is a ranking of hard to collect Topps sets (in terms of condition) and pricing (outdated, obviously). It was written in 1994 BUT still is worth buying on Amazon for the stories of his finds and the quirky people/travel adventures he had back in the 1980s.
Good luck.

Thanks, Mark! I will look for TRUE MINT!

And keep the stories coming!

[stlcardsfan]

Originally Posted by Collectorsince62

Rosen was at a show in St. Louis manning a table. When I walked up he asked me what I was looking for and I told him I needed one card to finish a mint '62 Topps set. The term "near mint" hadn't been coined yet. I knew the types of cards he handled and knew he certainly wouldn't have the 7th series checklist I needed. To this day I'm still astonished by what happened next. He reaches behind him and pulls out a box filled with nothing but '62 Topps 7th series checklists, all in perfect condition. It was like a magic act. Why he had about 100 of that card, the only card I was hunting for that day, is still bewildering. I have other stories about some of his shenanigans at St. Louis shows, but the checklist story I had to share.

I used to buy cards from a guy who told me that exact story about those checklists-Don Burnett- said Rosen was walking around that show with a briefcase and someone asked him what was in it and he opened it to show the mint checklists.

[flpm08]

Originally Posted by MK

So are there any written accounts of the Kansas City find like there are the Rosen find? I’ve heard of it, but really don’t know the particulars.

It happened in September of 1985. John Broggi and few other East Coast dealers split the find. As I said in my previous post I was visiting New Jersey and called Broggi and he said just that he just returned from Kansas City with some beautiful early 1950s Topps and Bowmans. Evidently some collector had preserved them well. When I visited Broggi about an hour after the call, he was just unpacking them. They were in a large metal briefcase tightly packed. I purchased some beautiful low numbered 52 Topps, i.e., Spahn, Snider, Hodges, Roberts and Feller ( second series) and also some beautiful 1953 Bowmans. I do not think that he had any high number 1952 Topps or high number 1953 Bowmans, but I think that was because of the way the dealers split the find. I know that there were 1951 Bowmans in the find because I purchased some directly from Broggi in two groups of 30 common cards for $89 each. In January 1986 , I purchased over 200 1951 Bowmans at a card show in Sacramento. The dealer said that they came from the find. They
were all beautiful cards. If you further interest contact Broggi he is a co-director of the National. I am sure that he will remember the find.

[Stuke1976]

Originally Posted by ALBB

yea, lotta storys about Rosen...

He insisted his table was the first one that customers saw as they walked into big shows

He made a big stink when one promoter didnt give him the the " best table"

He threatened ..and various time ..never to to a show again...never to set up at " so and so's" shows, etc..

I remember the time I called him to sell stuff...left a message....he called me back later...and to annoy him, I pretended I didnt know who he was ! LOL. I kept saying loudly " Who ? , Mr. What ? " !!

Being at the front/first table was the least promoters could do for having the show advertised by him for several weeks or months in major hobby publications.

[Hankphenom]

I don't remember Rosen being set up at Philly shows, and I wonder if he might have gotten into a fight at some point with Bob Schmierer, legendary promoter of those, who could also be prickly to deal with.

[Jewish-collector]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I don't remember Rosen being set up at Philly shows, and I wonder if he might have gotten into a fight at some point with Bob Schmierer, legendary promoter of those, who could also be prickly to deal with.

He did set up at shows at the Philly show (at the Ft. Washington Expo Center).

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Are there any pictures of the find? Not individual cards but the big lot before being broken up?

Does anyone remember "Find II" which happened shortly after the 1952 find? The Paris, TN find of unopened boxes of 1954 and 1955 Topps baseball, 1954 and 1955 Bowman baseball and 1954 and 1955 Bowman football. Apparently there were over 500 unopened boxes of the baseball, and 250 unopened boxes of the football.

I remember seeing photos in a magazine during the era with stacks of the boxes shown as found. Anyone remember what publication this was??

In the Nov 20, 1987 issue of SCD, Rosen was offering;

- 1954 Bowman baseball unopened packs for $125.00 each or $2500.00 per box (24 5 cent packs)
- 1955 Bowman baseball unopened packs for $150.00 each or $3000.00 per box (24 5 cent packs)
- 1955 Topps baseball unopened packs for $200.00 each or $3500.00 per box (24 5 cent packs)
- 1954 Bowman football unopened packs for $10.00 each or $1000.00 per box (120 1 cent packs)
- 1954 Bowman football unopened packs for $20.00 each or $425.00 per box (24 5 cent packs)

[ruth-gehrig]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Does anyone remember "Find II" which happened shortly after the 1952 find? The Paris, TN find of unopened boxes of 1954 and 1955 Topps baseball, 1954 and 1955 Bowman baseball and 1954 and 1955 Bowman football. Apparently there were over 500 unopened boxes of the baseball, and 250 unopened boxes of the football.

I remember seeing photos in a magazine during the era with stacks of the boxes shown as found. Anyone remember what publication this was??

In the Nov 20, 1987 issue of SCD, Rosen was offering;

- 1954 Bowman baseball unopened packs for $125.00 each or $2500.00 per box (24 5 cent packs)
- 1955 Bowman baseball unopened packs for $150.00 each or $3000.00 per box (24 5 cent packs)
- 1955 Topps baseball unopened packs for $200.00 each or $3500.00 per box (24 5 cent packs)
- 1954 Bowman football unopened packs for $10.00 each or $1000.00 per box (120 1 cent packs)
- 1954 Bowman football unopened packs for $20.00 each or $425.00 per box (24 5 cent packs)

Wow! I would love to see those pictures for sure

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Does anyone remember "Find II" which happened shortly after the 1952 find? The Paris, TN find of unopened boxes of 1954 and 1955 Topps baseball, 1954 and 1955 Bowman baseball and 1954 and 1955 Bowman football. Apparently there were over 500 unopened boxes of the baseball, and 250 unopened boxes of the football.

I remember seeing photos in a magazine during the era with stacks of the boxes shown as found. Anyone remember what publication this was??

In the Nov 20, 1987 issue of SCD, Rosen was offering;

- 1954 Bowman baseball unopened packs for $125.00 each or $2500.00 per box (24 5 cent packs)
- 1955 Bowman baseball unopened packs for $150.00 each or $3000.00 per box (24 5 cent packs)
- 1955 Topps baseball unopened packs for $200.00 each or $3500.00 per box (24 5 cent packs)
- 1954 Bowman football unopened packs for $10.00 each or $1000.00 per box (120 1 cent packs)
- 1954 Bowman football unopened packs for $20.00 each or $425.00 per box (24 5 cent packs)

IIRC -- He also got some 1960 Packs in that deal. I know I opened a few of those packs at that time.

Rich

[jmoran19]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Does anyone remember "Find II" which happened shortly after the 1952 find? The Paris, TN find of unopened boxes of 1954 and 1955 Topps baseball, 1954 and 1955 Bowman baseball and 1954 and 1955 Bowman football. Apparently there were over 500 unopened boxes of the baseball, and 250 unopened boxes of the football.

I remember seeing photos in a magazine during the era with stacks of the boxes shown as found. Anyone remember what publication this was??

In the Nov 20, 1987 issue of SCD, Rosen was offering;

- 1954 Bowman baseball unopened packs for $125.00 each or $2500.00 per box (24 5 cent packs)
- 1955 Bowman baseball unopened packs for $150.00 each or $3000.00 per box (24 5 cent packs)
- 1955 Topps baseball unopened packs for $200.00 each or $3500.00 per box (24 5 cent packs)
- 1954 Bowman football unopened packs for $10.00 each or $1000.00 per box (120 1 cent packs)
- 1954 Bowman football unopened packs for $20.00 each or $425.00 per box (24 5 cent packs)

A majority of the boxes had bugs and were either opened or thrown away

[ruth-gehrig]

Also wasn't there significant moisture damage to alot of the packs?

[x2drich2000]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I don't remember Rosen being set up at Philly shows, and I wonder if he might have gotten into a fight at some point with Bob Schmierer, legendary promoter of those, who could also be prickly to deal with.

Rosen was definitely at Ft. Washington. He also setup at some of the shows at Oaks that were competing with the Philly Show. Just a guess, but that may have been the catalyst for why he stopped setting up at Philly.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by x2drich2000

Rosen was definitely at Ft. Washington. He also setup at some of the shows at Oaks that were competing with the Philly Show. Just a guess, but that may have been the catalyst for why he stopped setting up at Philly.

Funny I remember him just about everywhere else, but not at Ft. Washington/Reading for some reason even though I did those shows. Did he have the first table there?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Does anyone remember "Find II" which happened shortly after the 1952 find? The Paris, TN find of unopened boxes of 1954 and 1955 Topps baseball, 1954 and 1955 Bowman baseball and 1954 and 1955 Bowman football. Apparently there were over 500 unopened boxes of the baseball, and 250 unopened boxes of the football.

I remember seeing photos in a magazine during the era with stacks of the boxes shown as found. Anyone remember what publication this was??

In the Nov 20, 1987 issue of SCD, Rosen was offering;

- 1954 Bowman baseball unopened packs for $125.00 each or $2500.00 per box (24 5 cent packs)
- 1955 Bowman baseball unopened packs for $150.00 each or $3000.00 per box (24 5 cent packs)
- 1955 Topps baseball unopened packs for $200.00 each or $3500.00 per box (24 5 cent packs)
- 1954 Bowman football unopened packs for $10.00 each or $1000.00 per box (120 1 cent packs)
- 1954 Bowman football unopened packs for $20.00 each or $425.00 per box (24 5 cent packs)

In Tennessee, if I recall?

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by jmoran19

A majority of the boxes had bugs and were either opened or thrown away

I remember reading about the unopened Bowman boxes when they were found, and then later hearing that many were damaged by bugs. They said that some packs were opened but the cards were ruined, even though there wasn't any obvious bug damage. I don't remember ever seeing any mint cards being shown off that were pulled from those packs.

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

He handled that better than I would've at the time. Once when I was set up at a show during the junk wax era, a kid (maybe 12) walked up with his mother and asked me a price on something in a 25% off Beckett box, which I quoted him without having to look it up.



Mom drags him away saying something like "don't believe that cause people will tell you anything" (practically to my face). I respond with a dagger glare and hold out the current Beckett, telling her she's more than welcome to check what I said. That was ignored and they walked on.



Obviously you need to teach kids to avoid getting screwed over, but that message of simply "the salesman is a POS and must be lying" is horrible, lazy parenting on many levels. Show your kids how to figure out what's good and what isn't, instead of always assuming the worst.

Ha! I have almost that exact story. At the Durham Fair, probably 1983, I bought a VGEX 64 Mantle for $23 and my Mom thought I lost my mind.

Sent from my SM-S928U using Tapatalk

[Fred]

Originally Posted by mightyq

PSA wasn't really doing that at the time, i think the first pedigree might have been the burdick collection, i could be wrong.

Don't forget the Hall T206 collection. I'm still looking for my catalog on that one because it's humorous to see a lot of the grades those cards received. I mean, I'd have avoided creating that catalog because it's like a book on how bad PSA was with their grading for that collection and shows just how crappy TPGs are. Many of those cards are OBVIOUSLY trimmed. I wish some of my cards received the generous grading those cards got.

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by ocjack

I think I recall Rosen saying in an interview that he sells cards because he can make money doing it. That if he could sell apples and make a huge profit, he would sell apples. So you're right, he had no "feelings" for the hobby other than as a way to make money.

Agree that was the motivation