Interesting historical Goudey Co. sales data

[brianp-beme]

In the recent Diamond Stars thread Spike (Matthew) posted a link to a SABR article detailing the 1935 Goudey set, with a lot of surrounding data and info (by the way, a great read, here is the link again):

https://sabrbaseballcards.blog/2023/...e-border-line/

In it I found an intriguing bit of Goudey Company sales data for the years 1933-42 that was originally unearthed by Bob Lemke.

goudeysales1933to1942.jpg

As can be seen, the Goudey Company total sales really took a drop from the banner year of 1933 to 1934, and then gradually drifted downward thereafter, while their Gum Alone sales for the most part increased from 1933 through 1937, and then took a large hit in 1938 and plateaued afterwards. Goudey also issued various non-sports issues during this time period as well, which do not have a separate sales column.

Of course the 'Baseball Packs' column is the most interesting to us folks, in that it offers an imperfect glimpse into the varying card populations of their baseball issues. As far as I have come to understand, with the help of Matthew, is that Goudey issued 1 card per pack at a retail price of 1 cent a pack, with the exception of their 1937 Thum Movies release, which was 2 cents per pack.

When I was originally looking at this data, I mistakenly thought I had found a gold mine - a direct connection to identify how many cards were released to the public for each year, all I had to do was some simple math and I would come up with that number. For example, with $450,000 of baseball pack sales, just times that amount by 100 (because of the 1 cent price per pack) to get a 45 million total production of 1933 Goudey baseball cards.

After rightly being set straight by Matthew (the total sales would reflect the amount of money received by Goudey when selling to their distributors, and not the end user - grubby fingered little boys with chewing gum and baseball card needs, for the most part), and not knowing how much Goudey charged these distributors, we don't have an exact card production amount, but still have relative population figures for each years' baseball card issues that to me duplicates the card availability seen today, and exposes some interesting possibilities.

1933 definitely towers above all the others in sales, with $450,000, as compared with the next highest at about half that amount for 1934, and about half that amount again at $116,000 for 1935. In 1936 this amount dips down some more, takes a big drop in 1937 to $36,000 (especially considering that the retail price for Goudey's 1937 Thum Movies issue was twice the amount of that of other years' pack price), rebounds in 1938 to levels approaching that of 1936, and then drops for the most part off the map, to the point where it is only $13,000 in 1941 This seems about right to me based upon personal hobby observance over the years of relative availability of different Goudey card issues. I did not check overall graded population amounts for each year, but I imagine they are roughly similar...let us know if that is indeed the case.

A couple of interesting thoughts about the sales numbers came to my mind when looking at the yearly data. Goudey did not have a regular release of baseball packs in 1939, yet still did about half the baseball pack sales in 1939 as they did in 1938. There were no baseball packs released in 1940, and no baseball pack sales that year. Although no Goudey baseball packs were issued in 1942, Goudey's baseball pack sales were about half of what they did in 1941.

I believe this seemingly indicated a two year distribution for both the 1938 and 1941 Goudey issues, and perhaps indicates a similar, but less obvious, distribution lag for the other years as well. This presents a particularly interesting possibility for the 1938 Heads Up set, as the non-cartoon versions were issued first (I believe...correct me if I am wrong), and then the cartoon versions. Were the cartoon versions originally issued in 1938 and then carried over into 1939, or perhaps they were just issued in 1939?

A final tidbit that hints at the baseball card production was provided to me by Matthew, originally also from Bob Lemke's research, is that a company profile from a Feb 1938 industry magazine indicated Goudey released 300M+ cards by that point, which would likely cover all sports and non-sports issues for 1933-37. That is a quite a bit of cards (not just baseball) for just 5 years, and makes you realize that Goudey was spitting out these things we love at quite a prolific rate!

Feel free to set me straight or add more thoughts/knowledge.


Brian (thought I would splash the front page with a wordy vintage thread)

[brianp-beme]

The title has been edited to reflect my true inner self, at the semi-suggestion of a fellow member. Yes, I am a grumpy old man, so you better do what I say and read every word, or the world is going to go to hell in a handbasket.

A handbasket big enough to hold the world.

Brian (and to end on a happy note with some cards that just couldn't quite fit in that handbasket, here are a few used Goudeys from some of the baseball sets under the spotlight...1933, 1935, 1938 and 1941)

[vthobby]

Brian,

Thanks for sharing. That was a nice read.

Mike

[chalupacollects]

If these sales figures represent sales figures to their distribution network that would probably mean that more cards were produced than the sales figures. So, if a pack retailed for 1 cent, the distribution outlet would have paid less than 1 cent to be able to make any money. So, if 1/2 penny per pack for instance, then double the cards per sales dollar? Thoughts?

[obcbobd]

Great Post and kudos to Spike (fellow OBCer Matthew Glidden)

Are Wide Pens and other Premiums counted in the baseball packs? I would guess not as I don't believe they were sold in packs.

Looking at the number of cards that seem to have been sold in each year from 1933 to 1936 we see a sharp decrease. Less than half as many cards sold in 1934 as 1933 and a similar drop off in from 34 to 35 etc. Was this due to the # of cards being made, for example 239 in 33, 96 in 34? The lack of stars (no Ruth in 33 a lot of no name players in 34)? The degradation in quality, 1935 are just mini recycles of 1933 cards, 1936 are black and white missing many stars such as Gehrig? Competition from Diamond Stars? At the extreme comparing the 1933 set (beautiful with plenty os stars) to 1941 (ugly, few stars, poor quality control). I can see why kids would spend their money elsewhere,

[GeoPoto]

George W. Case. Outfielder for the Washington Senators in 1937-1945 and 1947. 1,415 hits and 349 stolen bases in 11 MLB seasons. 4-time All-Star. 6-time AL stolen base leader. Only player to ever lead MLB in stolen bases for five consecutive years (1939-1943). His best season was probably 1942 for Washington as he posted a .377 OBP with 101 runs scored and 44 stolen bases in 563 plate appearances.

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1705936371
https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1705936365
https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1705936362
https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1705936359

[Seven]

Rather than creating my own thread, I figured it would be more prudent to post it here. Brian or frankly anyone, feel free to chime in/educate me.

I'm fascinated by the 1939 Goudey Premiums set. It was clearly produced at nearly the end of the road of the Goudey Gum Company. I know the stock they were produced on were paper thin. What type of packs were they inserted into? What was the logic behind the players they chose for the set?

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Seven

Rather than creating my own thread, I figured it would be more prudent to post it here. Brian or frankly anyone, feel free to chime in/educate me.

I'm fascinated by the 1939 Goudey Premiums set. It was clearly produced at nearly the end of the road of the Goudey Gum Company. I know the stock they were produced on were paper thin. What type of packs were they inserted into? What was the logic behind the players they chose for the set?

The typical way that the “premiums” were distributed with baseball and non-sports gum back during the 1930-40’s was more of a point of sale feature where the jobber would be sent a box with gum separate from the picture. They would get maybe 50-100 pieces of penny gum and a stack of the photos and for 1-cent you got a piece of gum and (depending on the retailer) either were handed a picture at random or if you were lucky you got to choose the player/subject.

There is little doubt that this is how 1939 Goudey cards were distributed.

[rhettyeakley]

The Robert Edward find from several years ago of a bunch of gum cards in original boxes confirmed the anecdotal evidence of how a lot of the gum cards/novelties of the day had been distributed.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...d-boxes-found/

Not how the Whiz (Fleer) cards were not enclosed in a pack and how the Tattoo buttons were loose in the box and there was a “Note to Retailer” telling them how to distribute.

[GeoPoto]

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1705944450
https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1705944453

[Spike]

Good summary and thanks for getting this going, Brian. If that 300M card number's correct for 1933-37, it should cover these sets.

* 1933-37 Indian Gum (series added over time)
* 1933/1934/1935/1936 Big League Baseball
* 1934 Sport Kings
* 1937 Thum Movies
* 1936-37 R314 "Wide Pens"
* 1930s non-sport sets (Boy Scouts, Soldier Boys, license plates, etc.)

The 300M card count came from a 1938 marketing industry magazine article about the different ways to promote products with packaging "inserts" (including cards), as well as wrapper exchanges.

Surviving wrappers show that Goudey printed release years on some packs and avoiding dates on others. I suspect that packs without release years could continue appearing in the market in later years. Even if Goudey printed each set in a single year (1933/34/35/36/etc.), remaining stock could be distributed at later dates, similar to how Topps created mixed lots of unsold packs in the 1950s and modern retailers sell mixed repacks today.

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

In the recent Diamond Stars thread Spike (Matthew) posted a link to a SABR article detailing the 1935 Goudey set, with a lot of surrounding data and info (by the way, a great read, here is the link again):

https://sabrbaseballcards.blog/2023/...e-border-line/

In it I found an intriguing bit of Goudey Company sales data for the years 1933-42 that was originally unearthed by Bob Lemke.

Attachment 606467

As can be seen, the Goudey Company total sales really took a drop from the banner year of 1933 to 1934, and then gradually drifted downward thereafter, while their Gum Alone sales for the most part increased from 1933 through 1937, and then took a large hit in 1938 and plateaued afterwards. Goudey also issued various non-sports issues during this time period as well, which do not have a separate sales column.

Of course the 'Baseball Packs' column is the most interesting to us folks, in that it offers an imperfect glimpse into the varying card populations of their baseball issues. As far as I have come to understand, with the help of Matthew, is that Goudey issued 1 card per pack at a retail price of 1 cent a pack, with the exception of their 1937 Thum Movies release, which was 2 cents per pack.

When I was originally looking at this data, I mistakenly thought I had found a gold mine - a direct connection to identify how many cards were released to the public for each year, all I had to do was some simple math and I would come up with that number. For example, with $450,000 of baseball pack sales, just times that amount by 100 (because of the 1 cent price per pack) to get a 45 million total production of 1933 Goudey baseball cards.

After rightly being set straight by Matthew (the total sales would reflect the amount of money received by Goudey when selling to their distributors, and not the end user - grubby fingered little boys with chewing gum and baseball card needs, for the most part), and not knowing how much Goudey charged these distributors, we don't have an exact card production amount, but still have relative population figures for each years' baseball card issues that to me duplicates the card availability seen today, and exposes some interesting possibilities.

1933 definitely towers above all the others in sales, with $450,000, as compared with the next highest at about half that amount for 1934, and about half that amount again at $116,000 for 1935. In 1936 this amount dips down some more, takes a big drop in 1937 to $36,000 (especially considering that the retail price for Goudey's 1937 Thum Movies issue was twice the amount of that of other years' pack price), rebounds in 1938 to levels approaching that of 1936, and then drops for the most part off the map, to the point where it is only $13,000 in 1941 This seems about right to me based upon personal hobby observance over the years of relative availability of different Goudey card issues. I did not check overall graded population amounts for each year, but I imagine they are roughly similar...let us know if that is indeed the case.

A couple of interesting thoughts about the sales numbers came to my mind when looking at the yearly data. Goudey did not have a regular release of baseball packs in 1939, yet still did about half the baseball pack sales in 1939 as they did in 1938. There were no baseball packs released in 1940, and no baseball pack sales that year. Although no Goudey baseball packs were issued in 1942, Goudey's baseball pack sales were about half of what they did in 1941.

I believe this seemingly indicated a two year distribution for both the 1938 and 1941 Goudey issues, and perhaps indicates a similar, but less obvious, distribution lag for the other years as well. This presents a particularly interesting possibility for the 1938 Heads Up set, as the non-cartoon versions were issued first (I believe...correct me if I am wrong), and then the cartoon versions. Were the cartoon versions originally issued in 1938 and then carried over into 1939, or perhaps they were just issued in 1939?

A final tidbit that hints at the baseball card production was provided to me by Matthew, originally also from Bob Lemke's research, is that a company profile from a Feb 1938 industry magazine indicated Goudey released 300M+ cards by that point, which would likely cover all sports and non-sports issues for 1933-37. That is a quite a bit of cards (not just baseball) for just 5 years, and makes you realize that Goudey was spitting out these things we love at quite a prolific rate!

Feel free to set me straight or add more thoughts/knowledge.


Brian (thought I would splash the front page with a wordy vintage thread)

[Spike]

The back of Goudey's 1939 premiums shows an important detail, "Diamond Stars Gum." It appears that after National Chicle went backrupt in 1937 and sold their assets to Goudey later that year, Goudey repurposed these leftovers (?) by adding their name later on. Those original how-to images on the backs of these premiums all came from National Chicle's "Rabbit Maranville" Batter-Up inserts, so it's fair to guess Goudey tried to repurpose other things they bought from Chicle's bankruptcy sale in future work. I did a card-by-card examination of 1938 Goudey's cartoons to see whether that set originated inside National Chicle.

https://www.number5typecollection.co...-baseball.html

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1705944450
https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1705944453

[Leon]

Work with me on the 1942 Goudeys. Leftover 1941s?
.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Leon

Work with me on the 1942 Goudeys. Leftover 1941s?
.

I believe Leon that is the thought on the 1942 Baseball Card sales data in the original post. It seems that Goudey likely continued to sell the 1941 cards to distributers in 1942, and that this probably occurred for other issue years as well. The more modern analogy of Topps that Matthew mentioned in his previous post is also a distinct possibility.

Maybe not an exact analogy, but I grew up with the repackaged Topps 'Fun Packs' bags of year or two old misc. sports and non-sports card packs back in the late 1970's. Just a fun memory.

Brian (and back to the prewar subject on hand, here are some of Hubbell's off-kilter quality control killer friends. I believe seeing cards like these are what actually killed Goudey's quality control guy in 1941, and they never replaced him)

[Spike]

I love how you can line up multiple 1941s on those sloppy cuts into a near-complete row. RIP to those quality control guys.

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Brian (and back to the prewar subject on hand, here are some of Hubbell's off-kilter quality control killer friends. I believe seeing cards like these are what actually killed Goudey's quality control guy in 1941, and they never replaced him)