Print Flaws... It's Not Just About the $$$

[Pat R]

Print flaws are important in the research of the printing process and they can also help spot fakes. I have been doing some limited research on a group of
T206 print flaws and I want to share what I think could/might be important
(to some people). These print flaws show that the front plates were shared
with some backs but likely not all backs within the same print groups and series, and the backs
seem to be grouped together, for instance the "murr'y flaw is found on four
different backs Lenox, Old Mill, Tolstoi, and SC 350-460 fact 30 and I have
found a couple of other flaws that are shared by Tolstoi's and Lenox.

Now the most interesting back in this research is Polar Bear, I have yet to
find any of these flaws on a PB back or a flaw on a PB (Dopner as far as I know
is only found on PB backs) has not been found on any other back.

I have stated before (and this is just my opinion) that I think the T206
printing was spread out among the several printing facility's that the American
Lithograph co. owned at the time. It just seems to make sense that a pretty
large project spread out over a fairly long period would have been done at
more than one place.

To me it is the best explanation for several things such as....

Sheet layout changes within the same series and some subjects that are more
difficult in common backs could be explained by slightly different layouts
at different facility's.

Why Demmitt and O'Hara ST Louis and the Dopner flaw are only found on PB backs and unless I'm wrong no printing flaw found on a different back is found
on a PB back. This could be explained if the Polar bears were printed by
themselves at one of the facility's and at the time they were making the
plates for that facility Demmitt and O'Hara were with ST Louis.

Now of course I know this is all speculation but I think it could be a good discussion.

[steve B]

Some interesting stuff there.

One thing that jumps right out is that the Lenox Murr'y looks very different. Could be the scan or the resizing to match, or that the name was printed apart from the rest of the brown. Are the Murr'y s one of the ones with a gray rather than brown name?

There's differences within series too, even for cards with the same backs. Most are a bit less obvious, but I think there's at least 3 different 150 series groups, and at least two 350 groups if not more.

I'm also thinking that cards printed for one series will differ from those printed for another almost all of the time. There are some obvious differences between 150s and 350's for at least a few subjects, and I think there will be some differences between the same subject as a 350 or 350-460.

I'm not up on ALC having different facilities, but it makes some sense that they'd use them if it saved on shipping.

One thing I want to check out is if there's any info locally on the company that made the orange borders. They were here in Lowell, and the orange borders share some pictures with T206. Probably just a stock picture usage, but interesting that so many of the same picture ended up in sets produced by different printers. Sometimes with a good deal of modification, but still the same picture. I'm hoping the local historical society has something, but it's a longshot. The best I can really hope for is to pin down the location, and maybe some info about the company moving here and shutting down soon after.

Steve B

[Pat R]

Steve, I agree the Lenox Murr'y does look Odd but I think it could be due to a bad scan here's the link where I got the scan.

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/lot-32781.aspx

It does have the same print dot as all the other Murr'ys by the NY logo.

And here's some info on the seven printing company's that ALC purchased
in 1892.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=205962

[Pat R]

The Polar Bears also have a print flaw on the backs that is different than
any of the back flaws on any other brand. The missing ie flaw is found on
three different subjects, any other back printing flaws are found on one or two
different subjects. There are 50+ examples of the exact same plate scratch
that is found on two different subjects but no examples of the exact same
scratch found on more than two and there are other types of back flaws found
on different series and brands that are all one or two subject flaws.

[Jantz]

Good information Pat!

Griffith (batting) could probably be another example since multiple backs have been found.

I also agree with that its not about the money. These errors/print flaws add more in research value.


Jantz

[Pat R]

First I want to say it's hard to believe Jantz has been gone for over 4 years it doesn't seem like it was that long ago we were talking about meeting up at the Cleveland National.

In the 7 years since I posted this thread and well over 100 print flaws later all of the new print flaws reinforce what I found back when I originally posted this thread that the print flaws track with the backs that were printed at the same time or very close together.

If you look at the McBride you can see the A-B-C-D pattern in the print flaws (McBride is confirmed with Drum but I haven't found a scan)

Also since I posted this Bryan has confirmed a MURR'y on a Sovereign 460.

I just finished the numbers on two new Polar Bear flaws and it still shows convincing evidence (along with other evidence) that they weren't printed with the other T206 backs.

So far without exception if a print flaw is a found on an off back that flaw is also found on Piedmont or Sweet Caporal backs and it's usually found on both but that's not the case with the Polar Bears until you get all the way to print group 4 460 only subjects like this Schlei

Schlei (Batting) Red Mark Group.jpg

Here's a recent Moriarty flaw I found this flaw is found on Sovereign 350 and both PD350 and SC350

0 Moriarty stats.jpg

here's the stats on the two new Polar Bear flaws I found

0 Stats.jpg

0 Nattress stats.jpg

With the Polar Bears you have Demmitt and O'hara St Louis, the fact that they're not in the Ledger pages while all the other backs are, add the print flaws to that and to me it all points to them being printed separate from the other T206's either in another ALC facility or after the other T206's.

[Directly]

So per this speculation is it possible the T206 Polar Bear cards were printed and distributed from a St Louis Printing location--being the O'Hara and Demmitt are St Louis variations ?

[atx840]

Pat, noticed this Print Group 4/Super Print flaw a few years ago between Lenox, PB and OM.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by atx840

Pat, noticed this Print Group 4/Super Print flaw a few years ago between Lenox, PB and OM.

Hi Chris,

I haven't done any research on any flaws with the super prints but with the backs on the Cobb flaw I would say this was towards the end of the T206 printing like the Schlei's I posted.

Here's a Piedmont 42 have you seen it on any other backs?

Cobb PD42.jpg

[Leon]

Nice work, Pat.

That's very interesting on the mark on the Red Cobbys guys.

That said, not a fan of the "mark" look LOL
.

[Pat R]

At some point I still need to do the numbers on all of the different print flaw images that I have saved. Here are two new ones that I did do the numbers on.

0 stats - Copy.jpg

Black Background - Copy - Copy.jpg

With the Jordan you can see that at some point the Old Mills and the Piedmont 42's were either printed at the same time or very close to the same time.

[jggames]

This is awesome Pat, thank you for sharing

[Leon]

That's interesting...

Originally Posted by Pat R

At some point I still need to do the numbers on all of the different print flaw images that I have saved. Here are two new ones that I did do the numbers on.

Attachment 601356

Attachment 601357

With the Jordan you can see that at some point the Old Mills and the Piedmont 42's were either printed at the same time or very close to the same time.

[jggames]

Hey Pat, I know that Jordan isn't from Print Group 1 but given the Blue Old Mills out there, it's interesting to see this example of them being printed together. Thanks again for sharing your findings here.