Elite 11 or 12 question

[Johnny T]

Was looking through the new REA Auction items when I noticed that they were promoting the fact that one particular lot was a Piedmont 350/460-42 back and is described as the 12th most difficult back out of the 39 (according to T206 resource).

That got me thinking, where do the elite 11 (or 12 if you will) fall???? Does it have nothing to do with the back (I know they are either Piedmont 350 or EPDG) or is it the player/back combo that makes these 11 or 12 cards scarce?

Finally, where would the experts on this panel Elite 11/12 cards in order of scarcity with the other cards/backs. I looked on T06 Resource and couldn't find the answer.

Thank you in advance to the experts on the forum for the answers!!!!

[Luke]

It's really just a pattern for those poses. The scarcity of say Tom Jones with a p350 back would be hard to compare to any other back in a general sense. You could look up all the pop numbers for these poses with p350 and then compare them to say, the average pop numbers for AB350 no frame if you wanted. I would guess those numbers would be pretty similar.

Also, for the most part, these poses are not any tougher with EPDG back than other 150-350 series poses (for instance Ganley EPDG is not any harder to find than say O'Leary portrait with an EPDG back. They just get a bump in demand because these 11 poses don't have as many mid-tier backs to pick from.

[Johnny T]

Originally Posted by Luke

It's really just a pattern for those poses. The scarcity of say Tom Jones with a p350 back would be hard to compare to any other back in a general sense. You could look up all the pop numbers for these poses with p350 and then compare them to say, the average pop numbers for AB350 no frame if you wanted. I would guess those numbers would be pretty similar.

Also, for the most part, these poses are not any tougher with EPDG back than other 150-350 series poses (for instance Ganley EPDG is not any harder to find than say O'Leary portrait with an EPDG back. They just get a bump in demand because these 11 poses don't have as many mid-tier backs to pick from.

Thank you for the explanation...much appreciated!

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by Johnny T

Was looking through the new REA Auction items when I noticed that they were promoting the fact that one particular lot was a Piedmont 350/460-42 back and is described as the 12th most difficult back out of the 39 (according to T206 resource).

That got me thinking, where do the elite 11 (or 12 if you will) fall???? Does it have nothing to do with the back (I know they are either Piedmont 350 or EPDG) or is it the player/back combo that makes these 11 or 12 cards scarce?

Finally, where would the experts on this panel Elite 11/12 cards in order of scarcity with the other cards/backs. I looked on T06 Resource and couldn't find the answer.

Thank you in advance to the experts on the forum for the answers!!!!

Remember that the back list rarity scale is just based on the most common cards with those backs. Each back has common cards and super rare and difficult cards. Take Old Mill backs for example. They are listed as not a rare or difficult back, and when dealing with the common Old Mill's, the rarity scale is pretty much accurate. But if you factor in Print Group One Old Mill's, Some of the easier ones could be compared to an American Beauty 350. The much more difficult ones could be compared to a Brown Hindu to a Red Hindu. Then there are the 12 Old Mill's from the 460 only Print Group. Those are comparable to a Broad Leaf 350 to a Lenox Black. This type of thing happens with many of the back types.

There are hidden gems everywhere. Where common backs are actually very difficult, when they fall into a certain sub group of a Print Group back, just like the Elite 11 Piedmont 350's. Without the knowledge of them being shared, most T206 collectors would look at them as one of the most common T206's. Those Piedmont 350's are really the only cards that carry the "Elite" name. Luke is right about the fact that there is a limited group of backs for those cards, so sellers will usually mention the "Elite" name to grab more attention and possibly more money. The EPDG's of those 11 cards are usually treated as the Piedmont 350's cousin, because it's the only other back that covers the same 11 cards, and the existence of those EPDG's is what confirmed those 11 Piedmont 350 cards to be in a group of their own. That's why the Piedmont 350 Schulte card is not an official "Elite" card. Because a Schulte has never been found with an EPDG back. All 11 can be found with a Piedmont 150 back as well, but that's not factored into the group requirements. None of the other backs have all 11 cards. Just Piedmont 150, Piedmont 350, and EPDG. The Sovereign 150's only have 10 cards, and the Hindu Brown's have only 7 of the 11. Both Sweet Caporal 150's with Factory 25 and 30 have 10 cards of the 11. The Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint has just 3 of the 11 cards. It would be difficult to put the Piedmont 350 Elite 11 cards into the rare back scale, because like everything else T206, not all Piedmont 350 Elite 11 cards are created equally. Some are much more difficult, while a few others are easier to come by.

The Piedmont Factory 42's are a completely different topic. Within that list of cards, most of the Print Group 4 (460 Only) cards tend to be more difficult to come by. Other than that, the cards were printed with a light blue ink or a darker blue ink thats similar to other Piedmont backs. There has been a few studies on the ink shade differences, that can be found within Net54. Some cards can be found with one or the other, and some cards can be found with both ink variances. I have 11 Factory 42's, with the majority being of the light blue ink type.

I hope this information was helpful and not too confusing to understand. The T206 set is probably the most collected pre-war set, while still being the most studied and still has many unknown mysteries. But there is a decent group of us that continues to study and break down the basic Print Groups into smaller sub groups for each of the backs, along with sheet sizes and individual card locations on those sheets. I sometimes compare the study of the T206 set to one of the largest algebra math problems. Because you are always trying to figure out what card equals x.