Toughest 20th Century Pre-War Player to Collect?

[bcbgcbrcb]

I just did a search this evening on eBay for the most recent 200 cards sold of Rogers Hornsby. Unless I missed something, there was exactly one career contemporary card included in there, a PSA 1 Diamond Stars. The other 199 were all post playing days cards. A search for Hornsby cards within active listings generates some examples, albeit very sparse compared to just about any other 20th Century player and those that are out there are primarily way overpriced (I know, no surprise there). So who is tougher to buy career contemporary cards of than Hornsby?

My thought is that advanced collectors and highly knowledgeable dealers realize that his stuff is so scarce and underpriced at the same time that rarely is anyone willing to part with any quality cards in hopes of future value escalating. Am I right or way off base here?

[bcbgcbrcb]

Just thought of one myself, Ross Youngs is probably a good answer.

[Leon]

Hornsby is undervalued but the reality is, the market sets the prices. A lot of top level HOF'ers don't get the respect, value-wise.

[Casey2296]

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Off the top of my head anything non-T206 Matty is tough.
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[packs]

I find Joe D hard to collect. I just don’t like the cards issued during his career other than the 1941 Play Ball but it’s been hard to find one with decent registration.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by packs

I find Joe D hard to collect. I just don’t like the cards issued during his career other than the 1941 Play Ball but it’s been hard to find one with decent registration.

I would agree, by far the best DiMaggio card but super hard to find not only registered but centered, and also with the correct purple color background.
My other favorite is his 4 on 1 with Gehrig, passing of the torch and all that.

[Misunderestimated]

I guess the ones I think of as a HOF collector include :
Jesse Burkett (he played mostly in the 19th Century but the only card one is ever likely to obtain is his T204)
Ross Youngs (referenced above)
Stanley Coveleski (sp?) and George "High Pockets" Kelly
Outside the HOF:
Jim Thorpe and Joe Jackson and the Black Sox players (other than Cicotte and Gandil)...
To widen the search HOF managers Wilbert Robinson and Joe McCarthy and HOF umpires Klem and Evans (who are in the 1922 Exhibit set).

[Exhibitman]

Honus Wagner. His career-issued cards are just really expensive throughout, and he missed the strip card era where you can get relatively inexpensive cards of many other top tier HOFers.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Just thought of one myself, Ross Youngs is probably a good answer.

Phil,

For your viewing pleasure.

[brianp-beme]

Below is a related post (pasted below) I made in a thread 9 years ago that had some of the same parameters as what is seen in the OP, but strictly involving Hall of Famers.

Brian


I will approach this question from a narrowed perspective, because it is within the following guidelines that I have always collected, which is based upon availability of prewar cards.

When I set my self-imposed guidelines, I eliminated all players whose careers were mostly in the 19th century, due to expense. I also eliminated almost all of the executives, broadcasters, etc. due to the lack of availability. Also due to the lack of availability I removed all of the Negro League players. What remains are 20th century HOF players whose careers were mostly before World War 2. The following are the ones I always considered tougher to track down Pre-WW2 cards due to the player being in fewer popular sets during their playing/managing careers.

Big Names:

Honus Wagner - in a decent amount of sets, but less frequently seen because of his absence in almost all the tobacco issues

Eddie Plank - not in that many sets, and incredibly tough in the most popular (T206)

Lou Gehrig - in some more commonly issued earlier 1930's sets, but still not as many as you would think based upon his status


Others:

Willie Keeler: 1910 era cards at the end of his career

Jimmy Collins: in fewer sets than Keeler

Jake Beckley: thankfully in T206 set, otherwise not much available

Elmer Flick: in fewer sets than Keeler

Hugh Duffy: at end of playing career during 1910 era

Joe Kelley: at end of playing career

George Davis: not in many sets

Joe McGinnity: at end of career in 1910

Addie Joss: untimely death in 1911

Jack Chesbro: thankfully in T206 set, otherwise not much available

Gabby Hartnett: in E120, and 1933 Goudey, otherwise surprisingly not in many of the prominent 30's issues (other Goudey, Diamond Star, Play Ball)

Ross Youngs: short career, mostly featured in strip sets

Casey Stengel: not in many of the common sets

Wilbert Robinson: surprisingly in MORE sets than expected

Stan Coveleskie: career falls in the 1917-1932 'dead zone' card era

Bill Southworth: seems to be overlooked in most sets

Charles Comiskey: executive, but featured in prominent sets like Cracker Jack and Sporting News

Branch Rickey: fortunately featured in Cracker Jacks and V100 sets

Bill McKechnie: in limited sets

Ducky Medwick: missing from early 30's sets, and most Goudey issues

Luke Appling: mostly mid to late 30's sets

Billy Herman: besides 33 Goudey, not in many sets

Fred Lindstrom: overlooked in most 30's sets

Al Lopez: not in many sets

Dizzy Dean: short career cut short his card appearances

[jsfriedm]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

I just did a search this evening on eBay for the most recent 200 cards sold of Rogers Hornsby. Unless I missed something, there was exactly one career contemporary card included in there, a PSA 1 Diamond Stars. The other 199 were all post playing days cards. A search for Hornsby cards within active listings generates some examples, albeit very sparse compared to just about any other 20th Century player and those that are out there are primarily way overpriced (I know, no surprise there). So who is tougher to buy career contemporary cards of than Hornsby?

My thought is that advanced collectors and highly knowledgeable dealers realize that his stuff is so scarce and underpriced at the same time that rarely is anyone willing to part with any quality cards in hopes of future value escalating. Am I right or way off base here?

I sold a raw 1933 Goudey Hornsby #188 on eBay in December.

[alywa]

Not an exclusively 20th Century Player (1890-1905), but as far as I know only two 20th C cards as a manager. By far the toughest MLB HOFer from the 20th C.

T204ToughCards.jpg

[Exhibitman]

Youngs' 1922 Exhibit:

[tjisonline]

Non-HOF - moonlight graham & non- 1940 Play Ball Joe Jackson.

HOF - pretty much everyone has already mentioned. Players are either extremely expensive to collect (Wagner. Each has some combo of low supply w/ high (or low) demand. E.g. Josh Gibson high demand with extremely low supply.

[DeanH3]

Originally Posted by packs

I find Joe D hard to collect. I just don’t like the cards issued during his career other than the 1941 Play Ball but it’s been hard to find one with decent registration.

This is so true. So glad I was able to land a nice example.

[nat]

For hall of fame MLB players it's got to be someone from the 20s. My pick is Coveleski. Nobody who is in Goudey/Diamond Stars or T206 is that hard (obvious exceptions excepted) just because the supply is so high.

[paul]

From the Negro Leagues, Willie Foster and Pete HIll.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Right on, Paul. Don’t forget Biz Mackey too, only one card known and only two or three examples at that.

[oldjudge]

Not 20th century, but almost, and Burkett as a player

[sbfinley]

I think the answer has to be Joe Jackson. I can’t think of a period card of him where the cheapest entry isn’t the low to mid 5 figures unless you can find a beat to hell T200. He’s arguably the key card in almost every set he’s in. I can remember years ago Leon had a Jackson game card (either Polo Grounds or National Game) on his website for a couple hundred bucks and a couple times when I made a purchase I thought about adding it but never did. Been kicking myself. Wagner, Ruth, and Cobb are all in the “you’re going to have to pay up” category but at they are in enough sets that if you have some options. With Jackson it’s game card/Play Ball or take out a second mortgage.

[packs]

I wonder how long the Joe Jackson and Wagner run up is here to stay though. I agree that under current conditions, Wagner and Jackson are very difficult to collect.

But will it sustain itself? I find it hard to believe that anyone will continue to spend thousands of dollars on Tom Barker game cards. It has a nice image but is akin to a deck of playing cards and I think was appropriately priced in the past. Even the E91 Hans Wagner card is selling for thousands of dollars. But how much sense does it make to pay thousands for a card with a generic image? The Joe Jackson blanket also has a generic image and sells for a reasonable price still.

When I say generic image I mean the image on your Hans Wagner card is the exact same image on Joe Tinker's card, except the team names have been changed.

[Touch'EmAll]

Some of Wagner's cards come with the name "Hans". Personally, I would rather own a Wagner card with printed name on card and slip label as "Honus".

[packs]

I could live with Hans as long as the image on the card depicted the player.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

Some of Wagner's cards come with the name "Hans". Personally, I would rather own a Wagner card with printed name on card and slip label as "Honus".

If you search "Honus Wagner" on Newspapers dot com during his career, you will find 26,000 papers that call him Honus.

If you search "Hans Wagner" during that same time period, you will get 96,000 results.

So it should be more likely that you find a "Hans Wagner" item than a "Honus Wagner" item.

Post career until his death, Hans and Honus were basically used the same amount of times. Both coming in just over 80,000 examples. In reality, we should probably know him better as Hans Wagner, but from 1956 until now the usage is 140,000 Honus, 10,000 Hans, with many of them after the 1950s not being him.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Burkett has 3 20th Century cards, W600, T204 & Koester Bread.

[bcbgcbrcb]

I think you can still pick up a low-grade W514 or possibly even lower-grade M101-2 of Jackson for high 4-figures. Might not be the nicest looking example but you get what you pay for. I’ve also seen a trimmed down W601 of 1908/09 Philadelphia sell for mid 4-figures not too long ago.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by z28jd

If you search "Honus Wagner" on Newspapers dot com during his career, you will find 26,000 papers that call him Honus.

If you search "Hans Wagner" during that same time period, you will get 96,000 results.

So it should be more likely that you find a "Hans Wagner" item than a "Honus Wagner" item.

Post career until his death, Hans and Honus were basically used the same amount of times. Both coming in just over 80,000 examples. In reality, we should probably know him better as Hans Wagner, but from 1956 until now the usage is 140,000 Honus, 10,000 Hans, with many of them after the 1950s not being him.

I can do either Honus or Hans...Wagner's given first name was Johannes, so the Hans nickname makes just as much sense as Honus, and perhaps even slightly more. What I object to is this!:

pc796cobbwagner.jpg

Brian (not my PC796 postcard, because I am obviously a Honus/Hans man...see above)

[doug.goodman]

m113 posters of Honus (released Sept 1909) and Hans (released Dec 1913)

[ValKehl]

Cards from their playing days of the HOFers, such as Mack and Griffith, who are in the HOF because of their time as managers/executives are generally tough to find.

[Leon]

I am not sure he is difficult to collect but, I don't think Foxx gets the accolades he deserves. Trying to get one of each of his playing days cards would be nearly impossible.

[Exhibitman]

Gotta be Honus; Heinous Hans isn't as elegant.

If I am going to spend on a Wagner I want one with the Horner portrait.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by packs

I find Joe D hard to collect. I just don’t like the cards issued during his career other than the 1941 Play Ball but it’s been hard to find one with decent registration.

His features didn't help. Don Drysdale practically couldn't take a bad photo, but some of Joe D's card images could chase a dog up the tree. I do like this one: