1951 Vets Benefit- Giants VS Red Sox ticket stub- PSA Disappointment!!!

[VintageHoarder]

I own this 1951 exhibition vets Benefit ticket stub of Giants VS Red Sox I bought awhile back ago. This particular ticket would mark Willie Mays' Fenway Park debut. He would not appear again in the park until allstar break in 1961. However, PSA never labeled this as such, and even failed to mention this as Mays' Rookie season. In fact, not a word is mentioned of Mays. Bothered by this, I emailed PSA if they could relabel. They said they would at no additional charge if they did indeed make a mistake.
They finally email me back after research and said they would have to charge me, due to me not being the original submitter. I argued they made the mistake and I shouldn't have to pay for that. They argue back that they made no mistake, but when you miss significant details of a game, this can and does in fact lead to it being a mistake. In their defense, the ticket does read accurately....except there's no mention of Willie Mays. For me and many collectors, that's a big deal.
I go back and forth with PSA on this and they say they don't acknowledge exhibition games and that they don't count. Why bother grading them then? Here's the biggest kicker:customer relations supervisor, Angel, begins trying to contact me. We finally get in touch and she talks like she is there to help resolve the issue. She then begins to tell me how wrong I am and how right they (PSA) are!!! I said "So, even if I paid to have this relabled, you won't relable it the way I want?" She says "No, because it's not an official game. It is not a debut."
I get it....it's only an exhibition game. But seriously?!?! This was still Mays' debut into Fenway!! PSA is going to tell customers they are wrong now?!?! I told them I had evidence to prove this is what it is and they told me it didn't matter. They refused to acknowledge and hear about it. They would not relabel it! She then said that maybe it meant something to me and some Mays collectors. Isn't that any collectible, though? I couldn't believe my ears!!! PSA is telling their customers that they are WRONG?!?! This is the service everyone is paying for?!?! Absolutely mind blowing!!
Sure this game counts! Maybe not towards stats, but it meant something to the vets and those who attended; it meant something to the players who gave their all for this good cause; and it meant something for Mays stepping foot into Fenway park for the first time; it meant something to that one fan who perhaps was unknowingly seeing his one and only ballgame with Mays during his rookie season. This game MEANT something. Allstar games are also exhibition games, so it doesn't matter when a player does his first allstar appearance? PSA refuses to see any significance. Anyone else have any similar problems?

[VintageHoarder]

This game didn't count? Tell that to the veterans this game supported!!!! PSA has got to be the most arrogant and egotistical grading company.

[vthobby]

Pathetic Systematic Arrogance

P.S.A.

That sucks tbh, not a big deal to add "Mays Fenway baseball debut", how does that hurt anyone? It also is informative. Any collector knows that this was a benefit game but facts are facts. If Mays played in the game and they have the "expertise" and I use that lightly to slab it then they can and should add that line about Mays.

My 2 cents.

[VintageHoarder]

Ha-Ha! I have to remember that one. This wasn't a big deal to add. They refuse to, because it's not an "official" game MLB recognizes. Obviously, MLB does (or did) recognize it, or the game would've never occured. In my opinion, this is much more important than any regular game, because it was played for a good cause. This game was also Karl Olson's very first game as a Red Sox. They also refused to acknowledge that, because it was not "offocial".

Originally Posted by vthobby

Pathetic Systematic Arrogance

P.S.A.

That sucks tbh, not a big deal to add "Mays Fenway baseball debut", how does that hurt anyone? It also is informative. Any collector knows that this was a benefit game but facts are facts. If Mays played in the game and they have the "expertise" and I use that lightly to slab it then they can and should add that line about Mays.

My 2 cents.

[VintageHoarder]

PSAs excuse is that they didn't want to "confuse" anyone.

[VintageHoarder]

It's like PSA is deliberately trying to make exhibition games inferior to MLB regular games for some reason.

[VintageHoarder]

But for what reason? Exhibition games are still a part of history and shouldn't be ignored, especially any that hold some historical significance.

[mrmopar]

Stop paying for their services. Enough of that and it will change attitudes. Until then, they know the masses will continue to pay.

[VintageHoarder]

Originally Posted by mrmopar

Stop paying for their services. Enough of that and it will change attitudes. Until then, they know the masses will continue to pay.

I told them that they deserved to be boycotted. They have all that power gone to their heads and just decide they can treat customers however they please. Thats when you know it's time for people to start waking up and boycotting any and all businesses that don't do right by the customer. Thankfully, they haven't seen a penny of my money, and after this experience, they likely never will. They would have to drastically change for the better before I ever even thought to submit anything to them.

[doug.goodman]

Well, I'm the last guy anybody would expect to come to the defense of an opinion seller, but they have a hard enough time figuring out when the most famous card in the hobby is trimmed, do you guys really expect them to be able to research some weird little fact about game that didn't count in the standings?

Yes, I called it a weird little fact.

To me it's not their mistake, it's a mistake by the guy who paid them money to slab it in the first place, when he didn't mention it to them to put on the label.

Oh, wait, now I get it, the main concern here isn't really the ticket, it's the label of the slab!

Oh, ok, now it all makes sense to me.

Doug



PS :

Originally Posted by VintageHoarder

It's like PSA is deliberately trying to make exhibition games inferior to MLB regular games for some reason.

Maybe it's because MLB considers them inferior, that's why they don't count in the standings.

[VintageHoarder]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

Well, I'm the last guy anybody would expect to come to the defense of an opinion seller, but they have a hard enough time figuring out when the most famous card in the hobby is trimmed, do you guys really expect them to be able to research some weird little fact about game that didn't count in the standings?

Yes, I called it a weird little fact.

To me it's not their mistake, it's a mistake by the guy who paid them money to slab it in the first place, when he didn't mention it to them to put on the label.

Oh, wait, now I get it, the main concern here isn't really the ticket, it's the label of the slab!

Oh, ok, now it all makes sense to me.

Doug



PS :


Maybe it's because MLB considers them inferior, that's why they don't count in the standings.

Yes, theyre expected to research that....that's why they have a research team. It really doesn't even matter if it's considered inferior or not neither. PSA is simply refusing to do their job for their customers: that's the bottom line here. The game still happened and there was still signifigance to that game. Why bother stabbing it if it's going to be missing significant info?Whether they felt it was a weird request or not, They are a PAID service that WE (the collectors) are relying upon. Customers decide what they would like slabbed and how they prefer it labeled, NOT PSA. They are paid to do a job and are arguing with customers and trying to justify not doing their job. You are right in the fact that it is the original sellers fault to get it slabbed, but we don't know if he mentioned it to them or not. He might have, and PSA refused to label it. They straight out told me they would not relabel it the way I wanted, even if I PAID THEM. Isn't the entire purpose of their existence to please their customers? Yes, but they don't care. They have plenty of them in the masses. They can afford to piss them all off, because they keep going back.This is what happens when a company has a monopoly on the entire hobby: they can treat all their customers however they please without and repercussions. They won't see a penny of my money.

[VintageHoarder]

I mean, if PSA doesn't "count" them, then why even bother grading any of them to begin with? It makes zero sense.

[Snapolit1]

I think PSA will eventually move away from adding this sort of language to tickets altogether. I've submitted tickets and got them to add language like this and I was very happy. But, in their defense, with the volume they are doing, are they going to research every request now that comes in the door. Or are people just going to rip them mercilessly everytime they get something wrong. Not commenting on the OP, but if you see some of the tickets now being sold at auctions . . ."Tom Brady's First Complete Pass at Giants' Stadium" kind of stuff. "Michael Jordans first 15 point college game." Sure, I made those up as examples, but there is a ton of that now. How much time can they possibly spend confirming this stuff. And for exhibition games? Coming soon "Dwight Gooden's First 10 Strikeout Game." In jr. high. I mean they are a grading company not SABR.

[VintageHoarder]

Handling the volume is very simple: with the help of owners willing to submit info of their own personal findings, then that will make PSAs job easier. State where they found the info and let research team confirm it. How hard is that? PSA doesn't want to do their job. If it's too much for them to accurately grade/label tickets and refuse to take any info from owners, then they simply don't need to grade them. They have a job to do and tickets require research...exhibition game or not

[VintageHoarder]

They could always limit the number of submissions they're willing to take. It's not hard to figure this out. Again, they are being PAID to do a job. It's like ordering a dressed cheeseburger from Wendys and getting back a plain burger, then when you complain, you get told to live with it. This is not how customer service works.

[VintageHoarder]

And what if PSA told you they didn't want to relabel your tickets the way you wanted, though? I'm sure you wouldn't be so happy with them. Sure, you got what you wanted, but what if you didn't? See, its easy to dismiss someone else's misfortune and defend PSA when you are one of the ones that got lucky and wasn't rejected. Of course it's easy to defend them...you got treated right.

[Snapolit1]

You can’t order a hamburger at Wendy’s that is gong to take someone 25 minutes to make.

QUOTE=VintageHoarder;2353548]They could always limit the number of submissions they're willing to take. It's not hard to figure this out. Again, they are being PAID to do a job. It's like ordering a dressed cheeseburger from Wendys and getting back a plain burger, then when you complain, you get told to live with it. This is not how customer service works.[/QUOTE]

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by VintageHoarder

And what if PSA told you they didn't want to relabel your tickets the way you wanted, though? I'm sure you wouldn't be so happy with them. Sure, you got what you wanted, but what if you didn't? See, its easy to dismiss someone else's misfortune and defend PSA when you are one of the ones that got lucky and wasn't rejected. Of course it's easy to defend them...you got treated right.

Not dismissing your experience. I’m just saying that the proliferation of graded ticket I can see why this is running into problems. Everyone wants a label making their ticket pop. Including me.

Honestly I can see a reasonable basis for them to say we are not going to treat an exhibition game as an official marker of any kind of performance based stat.

[Snapolit1]

Here's an example unrelated to your situation. My 1943 War Bonds game ticket. Widely hailed as "Babe Ruth's final homerun". Was it? Well, it was his last homerun in a major league park. In an exhibition game. And PSA does not say "Babe Ruth's Final Homerun" on the flip.

Would "Babe Ruth's Final HR" be deceiving? I'd say yes. Babe Ruth's "final" hometun was in an official MLB game.
And Jackie Robinson's last game was in Brooklyn, not Japan.

[VintageHoarder]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Not dismissing your experience. I’m just saying that the proliferation of graded ticket I can see why this is running into problems. Everyone wants a label making their ticket pop. Including me.

Honestly I can see a reasonable basis for them to say we are not going to treat an exhibition game as an official marker of any kind of performance based stat.

Of course everyone wants their labels to read what they want. Thats why PSA is getting paid. It's not even about them not even labeling it anymore at this point, it's about how they handled the entire situation. To turn down a customer and tell them they're wrong when they're offering legit information for their ticket is arrogant and completely uncalled for. The ticket obviously was never about stats, it was about the first and only game that Mays played at Fenway. A regular season ticket does not exist of this, so all in all, this ticket should be an exception.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by VintageHoarder

I mean, if PSA doesn't "count" them, then why even bother grading any of them to begin with? It makes zero sense.

Why bother grading?

That my friend is a very good question.

I would be perfectly happy if the opinion sellers didn't exist. I believe that they have hurt the hobby far more than helped it.

Doug

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by VintageHoarder

Handling the volume is very simple: with the help of owners willing to submit info of their own personal findings, then that will make PSAs job easier. State where they found the info and let research team confirm it. How hard is that? PSA doesn't want to do their job. If it's too much for them to accurately grade/label tickets and refuse to take any info from owners, then they simply don't need to grade them. They have a job to do and tickets require research...exhibition game or not

Never going to happen.

They couldn't even "research" the most famous card in the world properly.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by VintageHoarder

They could always limit the number of submissions they're willing to take. It's not hard to figure this out. Again, they are being PAID to do a job. It's like ordering a dressed cheeseburger from Wendys and getting back a plain burger, then when you complain, you get told to live with it. This is not how customer service works.

All of your comments are based on an initial assumption that the opinion sellers "care".

They do not care about you.

They do not care about your card.

They do care about your wallet, but only in a shortsighted "give us as much money as you can today" sort of way.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

You can’t order a hamburger at Wendy’s that is gong to take someone 25 minutes to make.

That's pretty quick at my local Wendy's drive thru...

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by VintageHoarder

The ticket ... the first and only game that Mays played at Fenway.

If I was the opinion seller, I would ask that you prove your statement, IF I cared about you or your ticket.

Doug "they are not Faith No More" Goodman

[rand1com]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Here's an example unrelated to your situation. My 1943 War Bonds game ticket. Widely hailed as "Babe Ruth's final homerun". Was it? Well, it was his last homerun in a major league park. In an exhibition game. And PSA does not say "Babe Ruth's Final Homerun" on the flip.

Would "Babe Ruth's Final HR" be deceiving? I'd say yes. Babe Ruth's "final" hometun was in an official MLB game.
And Jackie Robinson's last game was in Brooklyn, not Japan.

Nice to know at least two of us understand the PSA quandary.

Are we an independent arbiter who make our own objective determinations or do we let our customers dictate our opinions and verbiage?

Easy call every time.

[VintageHoarder]

Look at spring training rookie photographs of players like Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays: are those insignificant, because those photos were taken during an exhibition period of their career? Lets look at this from PSAs point of view; According to PSA, these also would be insignificant collectibles, because they are not "official". Yes, that would include the first time Mantle truly dressed in a Yankee uniform...it is unofficial and doesn't "count". A rookie is a rookie and a game is a game....no matter how you slice it. You can't discriminate against exhibition games and refuse to label them accurately, while grading the photographs taken during the same type of games and labeling them accurately. If it's known to be a photo taken during an exhibition period, the photos would have been taken at an "unofficial" time in their career. Therefore,, photos are just as insignificant and inferior as the game tickets themselves. This is the ludricous double-standard that PSA has created, and I'm honestly not even sure they're smart or professional enough to realize it.

[VintageHoarder]

And the flip at least mentions Babe Ruth. The one I own of Mays says no mention of him and PSA refuses to fix it.

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Here's an example unrelated to your situation. My 1943 War Bonds game ticket. Widely hailed as "Babe Ruth's final homerun". Was it? Well, it was his last homerun in a major league park. In an exhibition game. And PSA does not say "Babe Ruth's Final Homerun" on the flip.

Would "Babe Ruth's Final HR" be deceiving? I'd say yes. Babe Ruth's "final" hometun was in an official MLB game.
And Jackie Robinson's last game was in Brooklyn, not Japan.

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

All of your comments are based on an initial assumption that the opinion sellers "care".

They do not care about you.

They do not care about your card.

They do care about your wallet, but only in a shortsighted "give us as much money as you can today" sort of way.

[VintageHoarder]

That's fine, Doug...I can choose to not care about them by voting with my wallet.

[rand1com]

Originally Posted by VintageHoarder

Look at spring training rookie photographs of players like Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays: are those insignificant, because those photos were taken during an exhibition period of their career? Lets look at this from PSAs point of view; According to PSA, these also would be insignificant collectibles, because they are not "official". Yes, that would include the first time Mantle truly dressed in a Yankee uniform...it is unofficial and doesn't "count". A rookie is a rookie and a game is a game....no matter how you slice it. You can't discriminate against exhibition games and refuse to label them accurately, while grading the photographs taken during the same type of games and labeling them accurately. If it's known to be a photo taken during an exhibition period, the photos would have been taken at an "unofficial" time in their career. Therefore,, photos are just as insignificant and inferior as the game tickets themselves. This is the ludricous double-standard that PSA has created, and I'm honestly not even sure they're smart or professional enough to realize it.

Easy solution. Send it to Beckett. Maybe they will do what you want. They need ticket business.

[VintageHoarder]

Originally Posted by rand1com

Easy solution. Send it to Beckett. Maybe they will do what you want. They need ticket business.

Looks like that will be my next stop. If PSA can't do their job, I'm sure Beckett wouldn't mind picking up their slack.

[rand1com]

Originally Posted by VintageHoarder

Looks like that will be my next stop. If PSA can't do their job, I'm sure Beckett wouldn't mind picking up their slack.

I would not count on Beckett labeling it Willie Mays Fenway Park Debut. They may well list Mays on the flip but anything more would be unlikely unless he hit a home run or went 4/4.

[bigfanNY]

Originally Posted by VintageHoarder

I told them that they deserved to be boycotted. They have all that power gone to their heads and just decide they can treat customers however they please. Thats when you know it's time for people to start waking up and boycotting any and all businesses that don't do right by the customer. Thankfully, they haven't seen a penny of my money, and after this experience, they likely never will. They would have to drastically change for the better before I ever even thought to submit anything to them.

Reading through this I notice you refer to yourself as PSA's customer but you didn't really spend any money grading this ticket with PSA. So since you haven't spent any money with a business are you really their customer?
Maybe if you had just cracked the slab and submitted it with your research and asked nicely this would have gone your way.

You started your relationship with PSA by contacting them and claiming they made a mistake labeling your stub and you would like them to fix it for no charge. Which was at best a stretch. Doing business with a corporation or a local contractor or shop is a choice both parties need to benifit from the transaction or the side that is on the short end has every right to choose not to do business.
Example guy buys a car, then sells the car to owner 2 a lady we will call Karen. Karen calls vehicle manufacturer and says I wanted a blue car but when I got it the was red. Please repaint the car blue and make me your customer happy. Customer svs says they will research your issue and get back to you. ( now manufacturer has to spend time to research and respond to you on their dime) they come back say car was ordered red by the original owner, who by the way is not you. Karen says this is unacceptable she wants a blue car and if she has to pay...she is not happy but she will pay. Oh and you must change the VIN and all records to reflect that her car is Blue and not Red. Customer service says hold on I will escalate this. Gabriel from cust service calls Karen and says we are not going to do this for you Karen it is too many unpaid man hours to do what you ask and our repainting fee will not make us whole we will lose money on this one off. Karen is not happy she cannot understand why this business will not make her happy how do they stay in business letting people walk away unhappy. When the fact is sometimes you need to say no to customer requests when they are outside the normal parameters. Just a business decision.

PSA has just expanded their Ticket grading department according to their website. They are trained on how to authenticate tickets and stubs and how to research using a very specific set of approved resources. Since the first professional game in 1871 records and boxscores have been collected and verified. PSA has I assume chosen a number of sites and books to help identify Games Boxscores Debuts significant events. If you ask them to go outside the regulated and verified games in these collections it is going to cost money in research timeand verification. Doesn't PSA have the right to look at any customer request and decide weather or not it makes business sense to comply with the request?

[Leon]

Vintagehoarder wouldn't put his name out here per the rules. He said I was bullying him.....

Here our our last few comments...


Me- I don't care what you say. Say what you want to. But you have to put your name next to it. That's it.


Him- Obviously, you do care or we wouldn't be having this discussion. Listen: just delete my account. I'm over it. You can't tell me who I bullied and you are still calling me out on an opinion I made. Truly, I'm done with all of this. We clearly don't agree on our viewpoints, so this isn't the board for me.


And that is after I continually told him he needs his full name out here. He kept talking about other stuff. Obviously, he wanted to not abide by the rules and be another anonymous troll as there are on other forums. So, he is now gone.

.

[gonefishin]

Originally Posted by Leon

Vintagehoarder wouldn't put his name out here per the rules. He said I was bullying him.....

Here our our last few comments...


Me- I don't care what you say. Say what you want to. But you have to put your name next to it. That's it.


Him- Obviously, you do care or we wouldn't be having this discussion. Listen: just delete my account. I'm over it. You can't tell me who I bullied and you are still calling me out on an opinion I made. Truly, I'm done with all of this. We clearly don't agree on our viewpoints, so this isn't the board for me.


And that is after I continually told him he needs his full name out here. He kept talking about other stuff. Obviously, he wanted to not abide by the rules and be another anonymous troll as there are on other forums. So, he is now gone.

.

Leon - Jim Hoskins here - good job. I don't know how often you do this kind of stuff but I for one, very much appreciate your efforts.

[perezfan]

VintageHoarder, if you're still reading this...

Why not just do what Scott G. does with his "best collection of No-hit ticket stubs on the planet". He simply inserts the ticket in a nice rigid toploader, and labels it himself. What a novel concept... it saves a bunch of money and says exactly what you desire!

No need to rely on any rip-off 3rd Party to "validate" the obvious. Perhaps Scott will see this thread and post an example for you.

[ooo-ribay]

As the OP asked in his first post, “Why bother grading them then?” Why, indeed?

[commishbob]

Originally Posted by Leon

Vintagehoarder wouldn't put his name out here per the rules. He said I was bullying him.....

Here our our last few comments...


Me- I don't care what you say. Say what you want to. But you have to put your name next to it. That's it.


Him- Obviously, you do care or we wouldn't be having this discussion. Listen: just delete my account. I'm over it. You can't tell me who I bullied and you are still calling me out on an opinion I made. Truly, I'm done with all of this. We clearly don't agree on our viewpoints, so this isn't the board for me.


And that is after I continually told him he needs his full name out here. He kept talking about other stuff. Obviously, he wanted to not abide by the rules and be another anonymous troll as there are on other forums. So, he is now gone.

.

Standing by your opinion with your name seems like a dumb thing to get triggered about. Especially when it’s a forum rule.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by VintageHoarder

That's fine, Doug...I can choose to not care about them by voting with my wallet.

Welcome to a very small club

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by perezfan

VintageHoarder, if you're still reading this...

Why not just do what Scott G. does with his "best collection of No-hit ticket stubs on the planet". He simply inserts the ticket in a nice rigid toploader, and labels it himself. What a novel concept... it saves a bunch of money and says exactly what you desire!

No need to rely on any rip-off 3rd Party to "validate" the obvious. Perhaps Scott will see this thread and post an example for you.

VintageHoarder, here is an example of what I do with my own collection.
FWIW, I prefer to spend my money on vintage tickets, not slabs

[perezfan]

Beautiful Scott...

If I had a decent Ticket Collection, that's exactly how I would do it!

[doug.goodman]

Scott -

That is a beautiful for about 19 different reasons.

Doug

[Scott Garner]

Thanks Doug & Mark,
I hope to see you both at the National later this month!