Red Cross - Is it really a Louisiana exclusive?

[G1911]

The Sets

Red Cross issued a number of sets.

T60 Flags - only issuer, larger size versions of selected T59 cards. Unknown date.

T207 - A handful of cards known. c. 1912

T215 - T206 partical clone in 2 types, c. 1910-1913.

T219 - One of 3 brand issuers, in a physically smaller size than the other 2. T219 is a shrunk version of T218, with a selection of 50 prize fighters drawn from all three series. 1911 or later issue.

All 4 are very tough.

In the N card era, 3 other sets were released by Red Cross Long Cut Tobacco, as a Lorillard brand. All 3 of them are physically large cards.

N264 - Actresses in multiple types from multiple lithographers, including Bien.

N266 - Set of 25 pairs of boxers demonstrating different moves and tactics. 1893 copyright date; in 2 varieties with 1 probably from an album or similar

N268 - Set of 25 circus scenes.



The Authorities
The T60 and T219 are usually ignored because they do not picture ballplayers. T215 is typically listed as a Louisiana exclusive in most sources, and cited as such. louisianacards.com lists it as the only Louisiana tobacco issue that wasn’t produced in Louisiana, observing the New Jersey factory number (which was the only evidence for Red Cross, and debunked as the factory does not dictate the geographic distribution of packs to that state). It is regularly and routinely cited as a Louisiana exclusive, like a number of others sets.



The evidence I have found

In the 19th century, Red Cross is one of Lorillard’s brands. Lorillard’s dates to the 1760’s, Red Cross I have not found a record of its registration or debut.

In the 1890’s, around the time of it’s N cards, they have advertisements in the New York area. For example, here’s one advertising the brand in 1895, that appears in a volume from the New York Protective Associations of the 49th District. Clearly, it was not a Louisiana regional brand in its initial form as a Lorillard brand, and I don’t think anyone really claims it was. Most sources saying it is a Louisiana brand address no history, and no cards beyond T207 or T215.


In 1899, Lorillard ceases to be an independent company. Their stock is bought out by the Continental Company, which is really just a front for the ATC, and also has Duke as it’s President. Lorillard continues to operate, like some others owned by the ATC, as a subsidiary instead of having its brands consumed and the corporate shell itself disappearing. https://web.archive.org/web/20100518...6.118.119.html. Red Cross thus becomes a subsidiary of the ATC.

In 1911, of course, American Tobacco is broken up for restraint of trade, and Lorillard becomes independent again. This was evidently a very confusing period for everyone in the industry, as the trust was broken up and production continued throughout this difficult period. On December 9, 1911 the Journal has an ATC ad including Red Cross on its list of brands it is soliciting orders for. One week later, the brand is back on Lorillard’s list of brands it is soliciting orders for. Both ads strongly indicate this brand was not limited to Louisiana in 1911.

In 1916, Red Cross Plug Chewing Tobacco is included in a sample of tobacco brands in a report by the New Hampshire State Board of Health, testing nicotine levels. An unlikely selection if it was a regional brand not available outside Louisiana.
https://www.google.com/books/edition...sq=red%20cross

Conclusion and request
So we can show that in the 1890’s, it wasn’t a Louisiana exclusive brand, nor was it in 1911 when the T219’s were issued and around the T69, T207 and T215 cards time, nor was it several years later. This calls into question the traditional hobby claim, of which I have not been able to find an evidentiary basis for. I am looking for evidence either to support or contradict hobby tradition. Is there evidence this is a Louisiana brand or Louisiana only cards? If so, what is this evidence? I am a collector of the boxing cards only for Red Cross, with no interest in a particular outcome, if the tradition is true or false.

[RCMcKenzie]

I have not associated the N cards with T215. I have not heard that the N226 cards are found in LA.

T215 are so rare, that it's hard to say there are a lot from LA. I have always heard that T215 are found in LA. T219 RC are also rare. I think gfg recently bought a large collection from a guy in LA. I think we both grabbed some from that sale.

For T213, even today, they pop up in LA and East Texas, and were certainly originally offered there.

A board member found more than half the known T207 RC from a guy in Baton Rouge around 2010. REA sold them as the "Louisiana Find".

[G1911]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I have not associated the N cards with T215. I have not heard that the N226 cards are found in LA.

T215 are so rare, that it's hard to say there are a lot from LA. I have always heard that T215 are found in LA. T219 RC are also rare. I think gfg recently bought a large collection from a guy in LA. I think we both grabbed some from that sale.

For T213, even today, they pop up in LA and East Texas, and were certainly originally offered there.

A board member found more than half the known T207 RC from a guy in Baton Rouge around 2010. REA sold them as the "Louisiana Find".

The N cards were issued by the same brand that issued T215; it's the same Red Cross. I have not heard regional claims for them; in large part I suspect because less claims are made and become hobby fact about sets that do not feature base ball players.

I have no doubt T215 and T219 were issued in Louisiana. I have some doubts they were issued exclusively in Louisiana, or very close to its borders, as is normally said, as it is not a regional branding in 1911 as has always been said. I bought most of the cards from Dave's find that were sold; I think every card you didn't. I know I talked with Dave about it on the phone for awhile but I don't remember the state of origin of the walk-in. May well have been LA.

T213 I have never researched. ATC's brand managers do not own all brands at X factory; so they may or may not be related in the organization.

The T207 may well be a very small geography if even issued properly at all. This one I think is much more likely to be a weird ATC 'rule-breaking' distribution.

[RCMcKenzie]

Call Dave and ask him. Maybe I misunderstood what he said to me.

Here's why I brought up T213 when you talk about Red Cross. T213-2, T215-2, and T214 have blue captions. What do you make of that. Why aren't the Tri-state East Coast old-timers jumping in and saying, "Rob is wrong, Red Cross, Coupon, and Victory with the blue cations were always there at the Philly Show."

[jingram058]

I used to smoke, rather heavily before I went into the Navy and early on in the Navy. My first ship, USS Midway CV-41, I think EVERYONE on that ship smoked, officers and enlisted. Hell, if you didn't smoke, and drink on liberty, you were looked on very carefully. "What's wrong with that guy?" You lived for the "smoking lamp" to be re-lit. It was out throughout the ship while transferring fuel, during unreps alongside an oiler. There were no women on that ship, or any other ship in the Navy other than tenders, at that time, early 1980s. Because of working during flight ops, it was pretty much impossible to get to the mess decks for chow. My healthy diet consisted of coffee, "Cup Noodles" ramen, and cigarettes. The cigarettes of choice were Marlboro reds, 35 cents a pack, $3.50 a carton, in the aft smoke shop or main deck ship's store.

Shift gears to the early 1990s, Operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm and Operation Southern Watch in the Persian Gulf on USS Independence CV-62. You could still smoke, but while I was serving on that bird farm, the smoking policy changed from all authorized spaces to only designated places outside, i.e., sponsons. I now saw women occasionally; aviators who would fly out for "car quals" (arrested landings and cat launches) and sometimes have to remain on board overnight. Because I was now a 1st Class Petty Officer, a supervisor, I could now eat regular meals. And I cut way back on my smoking.

Now shift again to USS George Washington CVN-73. A new ship, and women all over the ship. The policy now is the smoking lamp is out. Now I am an officer, LT(jg), and I stand bridge watches and qualify as OOD (officer of the deck) underway. Now I have to set the example. Everything the enlisted people have to do, I have to do, only better. Otherwise, how can they have any real respect? My smoking and drinking days are far behind me. Now, instead of smoking, physical fitness is the thing during hours not on watch; running laps on the flight deck, push-ups, sit-ups, etc.

At some point before I quit "cold turkey" smoking altogether, I changed from strictly Marlboros to the occasional pack of Newports. Those cigarettes were made by Lorillard. Still around since the days of t205, t206, t210 and t211.

[Pat R]

I'm not sure what cards they would be but these ads are from 1891

Red Cross The_Times_Democrat_Tue__Sep_1__1891_.jpg

Red Cross The_Times_Picayune_Tue__Sep_1__1891_.jpg

[G1911]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Here's why I brought up T213 when you talk about Red Cross. T213-2, T215-2, and T214 have blue captions. What do you make of that.

I make of it that the lithographer who did these and had one of the sets or the set of printing material from the original T206 runs made an aesthetic choice. I would think these are probably all from the same lithographer; ALC or the same partner.

If you are suggesting these blue caption cards are all related at a business level, I am not sure how a L&M brand and a Lorillard's brand would be working together as a department post-breakup, or how the color of the caption serves as a geographic key. During the ATC days (t213-1, T215-1) we know that all brands at a factory are not grouped together in the internal structure, nor does it relate to geographic end distribution. Grouping does not seem to relate to the production system much. For example, Mecca, Tolstoi and Lenox, at the time recently expanding from its launch in the Chicago territory (this is when we find geographic limits on ATC brands - when new brands are being launched and tested, not after decades of distribution), are a department in late 1910 with a shared manager.

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Why aren't the Tri-state East Coast old-timers jumping in and saying, "Rob is wrong, Red Cross, Coupon, and Victory with the blue cations were always there at the Philly Show."

I would suspect this crowd by and large agrees with you that it is a Louisiana regional exclusive - it is the conventional narrative precisely because the old-timers believe this. That, of course, is not evidence.

I have no real opinion as of yet. Primary source material strongly suggests that this was not a regional Louisiana brand, which would make it unreasonable not to examine the traditional claim. I hope to learn the evidentiary basis for the traditional claim. Wherever evidence leads, one should go.