Wanted: 1936 Goudey Wide Pen Premiums R314 Hank Greenberg Type 5 Only!

[holybull]

Still looking....thanks, Michael.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by holybull

Still looking....thanks, Michael.

There is no such thing as Goudey Type 5 wide pen premium of Hank Greenberg. The Type 5 cards are a creamy color, have borders but no "LITHO IN U.S.A." line printed on them, and only include players from the Montreal and Toronto teams of the International League. They are considered by many as solely a Canadian issue because of that. You should scratch this from your Greenberg search/want list because you aren't finding something that doesn't exist.

[BobC]

Sorry, double post.

[Zan]

Originally Posted by BobC

There is no such thing as Goudey Type 5 wide pen premium of Hank Greenberg. The Type 5 cards are a creamy color, have borders but no "LITHO IN U.S.A." line printed on them, and only include players from the Montreal and Toronto teams of the International League. They are considered by many as solely a Canadian issue because of that. You should scratch this from your Greenberg search/want list because you aren't finding something that doesn't exist.

That actually isn't true. Type 5 cards do exist for some Detroit players, maybe all of them (not sure because I only pay attention to the Greenberg checklist). There is at least one board member who has a Greenberg.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Zan

That actually isn't true. Type 5 cards do exist for some Detroit players, maybe all of them (not sure because I only pay attention to the Greenberg checklist). There is at least one board member who has a Greenberg.

Hmm, had not heard that before. I'll have to do some checking. Thank you if that is the case and I've been wrong. I've always gone off the old SCD catalogs and Bob Lemke descriptions, which were up published up until around 2017 I believe. So if there were any changes to what I previously remember, they must have been found/made in just the past few years.

Alright, did my checking. My understanding was that the Type 4 Goudey wide pen premiums were also of the exact same/similar cream colored stock as the Type 5 cards, also the exact same borders like the Type 5 cards, and likewise did not have the line "LITHO IN U.S.A." on them, just like they also were not on the Type 5 cards. In fact, from what I'm seeing, the only difference between the Type 4 and Type 5 Goudey wide pen premium cards was that the Type 4 cards were all of major league ballplayers, including Greenberg and other Detroit players, along with many other MLB players from other teams as well, and all the Type 5 cards were just the Toronto and Montreal players from the International League. It was thought by many that BOTH the Type 4 and Type 5 sets may well have been a single Canadian issue then, but the people responsible for listing them, like Bob Lemke and the SCD catalogs, separated them into Type 4 and Type 5 cards and checklists based solely on whether they were in the major or minor leagues. And for the record, I have over half the Type 4 set myself, including a Greenberg portrait, along with a single Type 5 card of Henry Erickson, as part of my own type card collection. But by having an example of both Types 4 and 5, I can personally verify that both Types have all the exact same previously described attributes, so the only real seeming difference between the two Types is as Bob Lemke/the SCD catalogs put it, whether they were on the majors or the minors. And in 1937, Hank Greenberg was most definitely NOT in the minors.

So, where did you find your definitive proof from that there is a Type 5 Goudey wide pen premium of Greenberg, and other Detroit players, out there, and what is this proof? If there is a second/different pose/version other than a Greenberg portrait wide pen Goudey premium on creamy colored stock, with a border, but no "LITHO IN U.S.A." line, then I believe what you have is just a recently discovered, second Type 4 Greenberg pose, not a Type 5 card. I would assume that a large majority of experienced collectors would fall in line and agree with a Bob Lemke/SCD catalog definition of what comprises a Type 4 or Type 5 Goudey wide pen premium over pretty much anyone else who had/has a different thinking or opinion. Looking forward to hearing what you have as contrary info/proof. Thanks.

[Zan]

Originally Posted by BobC

Hmm, had not heard that before. I'll have to do some checking. Thank you if that is the case and I've been wrong. I've always gone off the old SCD catalogs and Bob Lemke descriptions, which were up published up until around 2017 I believe. So if there were any changes to what I previously remember, they must have been found/made in just the past few years.

Alright, did my checking. My understanding was that the Type 4 Goudey wide pen premiums were also of the exact same/similar cream colored stock as the Type 5 cards, also the exact same borders like the Type 5 cards, and likewise did not have the line "LITHO IN U.S.A." on them, just like they also were not on the Type 5 cards. In fact, from what I'm seeing, the only difference between the Type 4 and Type 5 Goudey wide pen premium cards was that the Type 4 cards were all of major league ballplayers, including Greenberg and other Detroit players, along with many other MLB players from other teams as well, and all the Type 5 cards were just the Toronto and Montreal players from the International League. It was thought by many that BOTH the Type 4 and Type 5 sets may well have been a single Canadian issue then, but the people responsible for listing them, like Bob Lemke and the SCD catalogs, separated them into Type 4 and Type 5 cards and checklists based solely on whether they were in the major or minor leagues. And for the record, I have over half the Type 4 set myself, including a Greenberg portrait, along with a single Type 5 card of Henry Erickson, as part of my own type card collection. But by having an example of both Types 4 and 5, I can personally verify that both Types have all the exact same previously described attributes, so the only real seeming difference between the two Types is as Bob Lemke/the SCD catalogs put it, whether they were on the majors or the minors. And in 1937, Hank Greenberg was most definitely NOT in the minors.

So, where did you find your definitive proof from that there is a Type 5 Goudey wide pen premium of Greenberg, and other Detroit players, out there, and what is this proof? If there is a second/different pose/version other than a Greenberg portrait wide pen Goudey premium on creamy colored stock, with a border, but no "LITHO IN U.S.A." line, then I believe what you have is just a recently discovered, second Type 4 Greenberg pose, not a Type 5 card. I would assume that a large majority of experienced collectors would fall in line and agree with a Bob Lemke/SCD catalog definition of what comprises a Type 4 or Type 5 Goudey wide pen premium over pretty much anyone else who had/has a different thinking or opinion. Looking forward to hearing what you have as contrary info/proof. Thanks.

I know that member MikeGarcia has one. I got my information regarding his and other Tigers inclusion in this sunset from Frank (fkw) on the forums years ago when I was still begining my Greenberg vintage collection.

The screenshot below is what I believe to be a Type 5 Greenberg that exists in Jefferson Burdick's collection side by side with a Type 4. Notice the differences in the image and saturation of the blacks.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Zan

I know that member MikeGarcia has one. I got my information regarding his and other Tigers inclusion in this sunset from Frank (fkw) on the forums years ago when I was still begining my Greenberg vintage collection.

The screenshot below is what I believe to be a Type 5 Greenberg that exists in Jefferson Burdick's collection side by side with a Type 4. Notice the differences in the image and saturation of the blacks.

Uh, Zan, you do know that the Type 2 Goudey wide pen cards are also bordered and also without the "LITHO IN U.S.A." line as well, right? The only real difference between the Type 2 and Type 4/5 cards is that the Type 4/5s are printed on what is described as a creamy colored cardboard/paper material. Did it ever occur to you that maybe what you are showing in those images are actually a Type 2 and a Type 4 Goudey wide pen premium of Greenberg, and not a Type 4 and Type 5 after all?

Also, as the Standard Catalog describes BOTH the Type 4 AND Type 5 wide pens as having the exact same creamy colored cardboard/paper, that would also tend to disprove that your images are of Type 4 and Type 5 wide pens of Greenberg as well. If they were, they should both be on the same creamy colored cardboard/paper, which your images show they clearly aren't. I don't know what else to tell you, but I believe in the accuracy and descriptions of the SCD catalogs, and the late Bob Lemke, much more than just someone posting on an online forum, with no real hard evidence or other info/sources to back up what they're saying. I'm not trying to demean anyone else or put them down, but the long-term, accepted SCD checklists and set descriptions seem pretty clear. There is a Type 1, Type 2, Type 3, and Type 4 Goudey wide pen premium of Hank Greenberg, and all are of his portrait, but no Type 5. Good luck in finding all the Hank Greenberg cards you're looking for. But if you already have his portrait in each of the Type 1 through Type 4 wide pens, I think you're good to go on having all the Goudey wide pens you need. Good luck.

[BobC]

Oh, and as for the color saturation and other differences you pointed out, that could also be a printing anomaly, aging, fading, or other issues as well. It could also be that the images are from different scanners/sources and not exactly the same either and it makes one look different than the other. Bottom line I think still is that both the Type 4s and 5s came on the exact same creamy colored stock, and those two images don't look to be of that same stock. So once again, is it not possible your images are of Type 2 and Type 4 Goudey wide pen premiums of Greenberg instead?

[Zan]

Originally Posted by BobC

Uh, Zan, you do know that the Type 2 Goudey wide pen cards are also bordered and also without the "LITHO IN U.S.A." line as well, right? The only real difference between the Type 2 and Type 4/5 cards is that the Type 4/5s are printed on what is described as a creamy colored cardboard/paper material. Did it ever occur to you that maybe what you are showing in those images are actually a Type 2 and a Type 4 Goudey wide pen premium of Greenberg, and not a Type 4 and Type 5 after all?

Also, as the Standard Catalog describes BOTH the Type 4 AND Type 5 wide pens as having the exact same creamy colored cardboard/paper, that would also tend to disprove that your images are of Type 4 and Type 5 wide pens of Greenberg as well. If they were, they should both be on the same creamy colored cardboard/paper, which your images show they clearly aren't. I don't know what else to tell you, but I believe in the accuracy and descriptions of the SCD catalogs, and the late Bob Lemke, much more than just someone posting on an online forum, with no real hard evidence or other info/sources to back up what they're saying. I'm not trying to demean anyone else or put them down, but the long-term, accepted SCD checklists and set descriptions seem pretty clear. There is a Type 1, Type 2, Type 3, and Type 4 Goudey wide pen premium of Hank Greenberg, and all are of his portrait, but no Type 5. Good luck in finding all the Hank Greenberg cards you're looking for. But if you already have his portrait in each of the Type 1 through Type 4 wide pens, I think you're good to go on having all the Goudey wide pens you need. Good luck.

Bob, I have all Types 1-4. Type 2 is cropped completely differently than Type 1 and 4 (at least for Greenberg, can speak only to that card because I am most familiar with it). Type 2 and Type 3 share the same image but Type 2 has a border. The card on the left owned by Jefferson Burdick is not a Type 2. I've attached a photo of it for your reference.

[NiceDocter]

Below is a photo of what I THINK is a Type 4 bought by me in a large group of Type 4s about 40 years ago ( it was at an auction at a show ..... another bidder offered to split the lot with me and so we did..... probably got 150 total cards EACH. Anyhow, it seems to me in reading the SCD catalog Type 5s by definition are only the teams of Toronto and Montreal. About 12 of the 36 Type 4s are listed with an asterisk meaning they are slightly different projections of Type 1. Greenberg is among these 12.

[Zan]

Originally Posted by NiceDocter

Below is a photo of what I THINK is a Type 4 bought by me in a large group of Type 4s about 40 years ago ( it was at an auction at a show ..... another bidder offered to split the lot with me and so we did..... probably got 150 total cards EACH. Anyhow, it seems to me in reading the SCD catalog Type 5s by definition are only the teams of Toronto and Montreal. About 12 of the 36 Type 4s are listed with an asterisk meaning they are slightly different projections of Type 1. Greenberg is among these 12.

Yes that is a Type 4

[BobC]

OK Zan, I did some additional checking, and I think I see what the issue/question is. And I don't know if there is a right or wrong answer after all.


https://oldcardboard.com/r/r314/r314.asp?cardsetID=872


The Old Cardboard site also lists a description of the various Goudey wide pen Types. They say the Type 5 cards do include some Detroit players, as well as all the International League players that the SCD catalogs says make up the Type 5 cards alone. Now the SCD catalogs say the Type 4 and Type 5 cards both have a similar creamy colored stock that those two Types alone use, and Types 1-3 use a different, more white stock. Which is true. The Old Cardboard site makes no direct mention of the creamy colored paper/cardboard stock differences, and specifically which Type(s) it relates to, but instead just mentions that the Type 1-4 cards have a glossy front surface finish, while the Type 5 cards have more of a matte front surface finish, which also appears to be true. The SCD catalogs show all five Types as being Goudey cards, whereas the Old Cardboard site shows Types 1-3 definitely as Goudey cards, but then shows Type 4 and 5 as possibly not being Goudey cards, but World Wide Gum cards instead, a Canadian issue. But the Old Cardboard site puts questions marks after the WWG designations, so they obviously aren't certain either. What is also interesting is that the SCD catalogs show the Type 4 wide pen card set as having 36 cards of 34 different major league players listed in it (two versions each for Pete Fox and Schoolboy Rowe), while the Type 5 International League cards have exactly 39 different players/managers/trainers that make it up. However, in obvious contrast/contradiction, the Old Cardboard site shows there are only 26 cards that make up the Type 4 set, while they list the Type 5 set as having 47+ cards in it. Why the big discrepancy in the number of cards in each of the two Type sets between SCD and OBC, and especially why does the OBC list the Type 5 set as 47+ cards, meaning they don't really know how many cards are in the set? And to make things even more confusing, the OBC site doesn't list what cards make up the Type 4 and Type 5 checklists. So that is no help. But what it does seem to do is indicate that maybe the OBC site is suggesting that they completely removed some of the cards off the Type 4 checklist entirely, and switched them over to the Type 5 checklist. So does that mean if you want to consider there is a Type 5 Greenberg card after all, that also means there is no longer a Type 4 Greenberg card then? And if not, then what cards did the OBC site take from the Type 4 checklist and apparently add onto the Type 5 checklist after all then?

Then in looking at other sites, like the Pre-War Cards site, for info on the Goudey wide pen sets, they also confirm the five different Types, and that the Type 5 cards are to also only be Canadian, International League players, just like the SCD catalogs do. They also agree with the SCD catalogs that the Type 4 set is made up of 36 cards, while the Type 5 set is made up of 39 cards. The Pre-War Cards site also speculates about the printing of some of those wide pen cards by the World Wide Gum company, and goes even further to speculate that the Type 4 and Type 5 cards may therefore be incorrectly classified as R314 cards to begin with, and should be considered as part of a separate V352 set, as identified by Jefferson Burdick in his American Card Catalog.


https://prewarcards.com/2016/10/04/1...premiums-sets/


https://prewarcards.com/2016/09/07/1...and-checklist/


You had made a reference to Burdick earlier as well. But if the Type 4 and 5 cards really should be in a separate Canadian issued set per Burdick, then there is no Type 5 (or Type 4 for that matter) Goudey wide pen Greenberg card at all, just a V352 version. But if you choose to ignore Burdick's own classification and list the creamy colored wide pen cards as R314 Goudeys, I believe you have to then follow the SCD catalogs as the most authoritative source, and only consider the International League Canadian players as Type 5 cards, and the major league players as only Type 4 cards. Now both the Type 4 and Type 5 cards have the same creamy colored paper/cardboard they were printed on, but then there is apparently another difference in that all the International League player cards had more of a matte front surface finish, while some of the major league player (Detroit) cards can apparently be found with both a glossy and matte front surface finish? If that is the case, that may be the result of having a switch in the stock or printing process at some point when printing the major league player cards. Regardless, I think you still have to recognize that the International League Canadian players are to be considered a separate set/Type, as the SCD catalogs have put forth, and that if there are two different versions of a Greenberg card, a glossy and matte version, then those are Type 4 variations, not a Type 4 and separate Type 5 card.

And the same would hold true I believe if you consider the Type 4 and Type 5 cards are actually part of a V352 set. They would all be the creamy colored paper/cardboard material, but possibly a matte and glossy version for at least some of the major league players.



And in doing a quick look at pop reports, I noticed that neither PSA nor SGC has any Type 5 graded Greenberg cards. In fact, the only PSA graded Type 5 cards are all just of International League players. Oddly though, SGC does have some major league player's wide pens (both Detroit and other teams) labeled as "Canadian" instead of Type 4 or Type 5. I would guess these are all of the creamy colored Type 4. Now there were some other SGC graded Goudey wide pen cards labeled as Type 5, not many, and all but two of them were also of just International League players. However, one of those SGC graded cards labeled as a Type 5 was of Charlie Gehringer, from the Detroit Tigers, which would tend to prove the idea that there are Type 5 cards of Detroit players recognized after all. But then I looked and saw the other SGC graded card also labeled as a Goudey wide pen Type 5 card as well, of Jake Mooty. Thing is though, Mooty was just a very minor relief pitcher who did play some in the majors in 1936 and 1937, but he did so for Cincinnati, not Detroit. Also, though he did play some minor league stints in '36 and '37 as well, Mooty was in the AA and never played in the International League in his career. And lastly, Mooty never appeared on any of other the Type 1-4 Goudey wide pen card issues either, so why in the world would he suddenly have a Type 5 Goudey wide pen card......the answer is, he wouldn't! So, it is pretty clear that this SGC graded card is completely mislabeled as a Type 5 Goudey wide pen card, which makes me way more easily suspect the Type 5 labeled Gehringer card is likely in error as well.

If someone else wants to believe the OBC site, and the reference to a 2006 article as the source of their reference to Type 5 Goudey cards including some Detroit Tigers players, then why did the SCD catalogs prior to that article, and for at least a decade after it, continue to list the Type 5 cards as only including International League players? Bob Lemke and his staff would have most likely heard/seen/found something about this alleged difference in thinking, and vigorously investigated it. And the fact that they did not see fit to change their checklists and descriptions, nor even make mention of any potential issues or questions, to me is more than telling and compelling that there are no Type 5 Greenberg wide pen premiums. Maybe a glossy and matte version Type 4, or a glossy and matte version V352, but not a separate Type 5. But if some people still want to ignore the SCD Catalogs and their recognized authoritative history, along with the support from other like thinking sites, I guess they can call them Type 5s if that is what they really want to do. But it still goes against authoritative sources out there, and makes little logical sense on its own Good luck with your collecting.

[BobC]

Sorry, double post.

[holybull]

Why don't you guys ask Mike Garcia to post a picture?

[holybull]

Screenshot_20230210-102552_Chrome.jpg

[holybull]

still looking

[BobC]

Originally Posted by holybull

still looking

For what, a mislabeled Type 5 Greenberg, or a Type 4 Greenberg variant with a more matte than glossy front surface?

[holybull]

Did you see the previous photo? Call it a type 4 variant or type 5....I need it....thanks

[holybull]

still looking.....

[MikeGarcia]

Originally Posted by BobC

For what, a mislabeled Type 5 Greenberg, or a Type 4 Greenberg variant with a more matte than glossy front surface?

..

.. You can show this pair of mislabelled '37's ( Type 5 on the left) to Bob C)

..

These are finally labelled correctly.






..

[holybull]

already did...lol....see posts earlier in thread......so you ready to sell that Hank yet? haha!

[holybull]

still looking!

[holybull]

bump