Why is this considered altered?

[Hordfest]

Well my first R303-A came back through the portal and it was given an altered grade. The only thing I could possibly think of is the two tape residue marks on the top. Just seems ridiculous though to punish my grandpa for altering his cards for hanging them up 80 years ago and taking them down.

Would it be worth submitting to SGC instead? I wasn't expecting a high grade. Maybe a 1 or 1.5, or even Authentic. But definitely didn't see this coming.

(Note that the blotchy look on front and back is due to protective covering, it is not damage)

Edit: I have taken a few deep breaths now... I'm very thankful that it is an authentic card at least and am just happy to have it preserved. I'm not really mad or upset at this point, more just confused

Edit: SGC has been grading my 1939s 1.5 to 2.0 range. Probably going to move Ted to SGC

Final Edit: SGC graded it a 1.5.

[NiceDocter]

According to their website, Altered “may” include evidence of trimming recoloring restoration or trimming. Looks more like your basic damage rather than any of these to me…. All that said , collectors for the most part are getting to where they are smart enough to “buy the card not the holder” on ones like these so I’m not sure you’d be any better off with a straight 1 or 1.5 value wise. Great card by the way…. Grandpa did good!!!

[perezfan]

I'm usually not a proponent of this...

But with that one, I would crack out and re-submit to SGC. And not just because of the questionable grade.

I don't like the blotchy filmy look that these PSA slabs create, either. I would honestly rather display this gorgeous card in a large sized beveled edge screw-down holder or a rigid toploader.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by NiceDocter

According to their website, Altered “may” include evidence of trimming recoloring restoration or trimming. Looks more like your basic damage rather than any of these to me…. All that said , collectors for the most part are getting to where they are smart enough to “buy the card not the holder” on ones like these so I’m not sure you’d be any better off with a straight 1 or 1.5 value wise. Great card by the way…. Grandpa did good!!!

Plus 1 agree.

Great Card

[Hordfest]

Here's a scan of the card I did on my flatbed copier before I submitted it, for a better view of the top corner damage and what it looks like without the film

It's just confusing. Hard to make sense of the decision. Thanks for the help so far though. I appreciate it

[HercDriver]

You got robbed...I would definitely send to SGC, if you want a slabbed grade. It can't get any worse, and their slabs look nicer. That's an awesome card that deserves way better than that.

Cheers,
Geno

[JeremyW]

Welcome to the wild world of grading. If you're looking to sell, I would post that scan in the Net54 BST & request offers.

[tschock]

Another example of a card I would definitely buy at the "holder" price.
VERY nice card!

[JustinD]

How did you remove the tape?

[Snowman]

All 4 borders look way too narrow to me for this issue. Whether it's trimmed or factory miscut, who knows. But they probably flagged it for that reason.

[rjackson44]

Who cares beautiful card enjoy

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by rjackson44

Who cares beautiful card enjoy

I agree! It always seems that if something seems off, it's automatically assumed it's trimmed or altered. If it is a factory issue, does that make it altered or trimmed? I say no! Beautiful card!

[MikeGarcia]

Originally Posted by JustinD

How did you remove the tape?

.. the lack of any visible tape stain might mean that the actual surface came off with the tape ??....the dreaded " missing surface"...... and since it's on the front the grader may have gone overboard with that "A" grade.... we all probably have " 1 "s and "2"s with missing paper on the back of what is otherwise a decent card......

..

[Hordfest]

So...I wanted to get a second opinion on cards from my grandpas Goudeys, so I sent 4 HOFers to SGC to see if they got an A grade from SGC or an actual numbered grade.

As expected, they graded right where they should with tape damage. Just continues to frustrate me that PSA graded Ted, who was in this same collection, an AA.

[ValKehl]

Brandon, there is a simple solution - send Ted to SGC! BTW, nice cards!

[commishbob]

These are just terrific pieces made even cooler by the fact that they came from your grandfather. My suggestion…send it to SGC so you have matching holders and come up with a nice way to display them. Maybe with a pic of your grandpa.

[refz]

Terrific card! You should not be ashamed of having it, regardless of the grade in your collection. You got robbed on the backside of the card not the front. I have all the big cards from the 1941 double play set, numerically graded by sgc 1.5 - 2. With paper loss + residue on the back other wise they look near mint. You know what? I don’t care! I love the cards.

Danny

[JollyElm]

Just an FYI: wasn't sure if you knew, but your title actually says "alerted." To edit the spelling, hit the "edit" button in the lower right and then hit the "Go Advanced" button. That will allow you to correct the spelling in the thread title.

It goes without saying, but very cool stuff!!!!

[Hordfest]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Just an FYI: wasn't sure if you knew, but your title actually says "alerted." To edit the spelling, hit the "edit" button in the lower right and then hit the "Go Advanced" button. That will allow you to correct the spelling in the thread title.

It goes without saying, but very cool stuff!!!!

Thank you!!! The title was bothering me so much but I had no idea how to edit titles.

[Hordfest]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Brandon, there is a simple solution - send Ted to SGC! BTW, nice cards!

That's my plan although I'm a bit nervous about breaking open a slab. I might buy a few cheap slabs at a local card store to practice on first and watch some videos online.

[JollyElm]

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Houston...er, I mean, Leon...we have a problem. Looks like a scammer/spammer slipped in.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Houston...er, I mean, Leon...we have a problem. Looks like a scammer/spammer slipped in.

Had already PMed him Darren.

Don't advise anyone to contact or open links in such posts.

Also wouldn't advise quoting such posts so the links/contact info show up in more than one place in the thread. Leon will remove the original scam post. Hopefully he'll remove yours as well with the copy of the scam post and link.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by BobC

Already PMed him Darren.

Me too.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Houston...er, I mean, Leon...we have a problem. Looks like a scammer/spammer slipped in.

Taken care of.....they usually don't post in the middle of thread. Kind of ballsy
.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Leon

Taken care of.....they usually don't post in the middle of thread. Kind of ballsy
.

Thanks as always Leon.

By the way, Darren's post #21 in this thread includes a copy of the scam post and link. I would advise removing that copied post and link as well.

[glchen]

The paper loss on the top corners may be due to the premium previously having been taped to something. Maybe there is still some tape residue in the corners which would have led to the Altered qualifier?

[Hordfest]

The saga is finally over. SGC has returned Mr. Williams and I figure it is fitting on his birthday to share this! What PSA saw I will never know, but I'm thankful SGC realized the truth that it was not an altered card.

The Trinity is complete! Now to find an auction house...

[fkm_bky]

Congratulations and good luck with the sale! They're beautiful cards!

Bill

[luciobar1980]

Why is this even a thing with cards? With comic books the graders will more-or-less tell you exactly what the alteration is. Why shouldn't card graders tell their customers the reason for such an assessment? It boggles my mind.

I think SGC did a great thing by at least now telling you the basic alteration they've detected.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by luciobar1980

Why is this even a thing with cards? With comic books the graders will more-or-less tell you exactly what the alteration is. Why shouldn't card graders tell their customers the reason for such an assessment? It boggles my mind.

I think SGC did a great thing by at least now telling you the basic alteration they've detected.

In my jaded opinion it is about them avoiding being challenged on their findings. I would not expect them to take the time to inform us at the $30 level subs but think we are entitled to knowing their findings paying anything more than that.

SGC used to indicate on the card saver with a sharpie the area that resulted in a card being rejected, if they were returning in unslabbed.

Now TPG can just hide behind the fact that they are too busy to take the time. Again this all leads to less transparency, less value for your dollar and one more missed chance at being educated thereby making us better buyers and better submitters.

[ClementeFanOh]

Brandon- first off, GREAT cards! I'm glad you finally got it in a proper holder.
I have also noticed recently, on our beloved site, a couple of PSA T206s that
were given "MC" qualifiers because a microscopic portion of the player's name
and team were cut (by the factory) off at the bottom. This is insane, it just
cripples the value of wonderful cards, and utterly fails to take into account
the inexact nature of less sophisticated printing techniques from 100+ years
ago. It's the work of small minds- Trent King

[Snowman]

Regardless of what BODA would like you to believe, PSA does not consider tape removal to be an alteration, so it shouldn't have been because of that.

The truth is that most of the time the graders are guessing with respect to alterations (at every grading company and even with the most experienced senior graders). Yes, some are obvious, but most are not. This is why you can send the same card in 3 times and get a different opinion every time. It's also why you can send in pack pulled cards and have them returned with "evidence of trimming".

The reason PSA fails to provide an explanation for cards they slab as altered is evidence of their hubris. They know they have a strong hold over the market and they don't care about customer service. At all. I also think they don't want to put their opinions out there on record because then they could be held to account for it later on after someone resubmits the card and gets a different opinion the next time. They have to know that their consistency is all over the map these days. They just can't admit it publicly. They want to conceal this fact you whatever extent possible, and not giving you an explanation for your grades is likely a key component of that strategy.

[Hordfest]

Originally Posted by Snowman

The reason PSA fails to provide an explanation for cards they slab as altered is evidence of their hubris. They know they have a strong hold over the market and they don't care about customer service. At all. I also think they don't want to put their opinions out there on record because then they could be held to account for it later on after someone resubmits the card and gets a different opinion the next time. They have to know that their consistency is all over the map these days. They just can't admit it publicly. They want to conceal this fact you whatever extent possible, and not giving you an explanation for your grades is likely a key component of that strategy.

I think what frustrated me the most as I alluded to above is the fact that they graded my Joe DiMaggio and Bob Feller and did not find alterations.

All three cards have similar tape damage. All three cards came from the same collection owned by one owner. Doesn't PSA have specialist graders to handle sets like this? I would hope these were assigned to some old timer at PSA who really understands vintage oversized Goudeys and has graded many of them, and that these cards aren't going to random new junior graders who spend 95% of their time on modern cards. But based on the inconsistency i feel like these cards didn't go to the same couple of graders who know the set well.

[Vintagedeputy]

Reason # 4,774,321 why I will never give PSA a dime.

Those cards look amazing in SGC slabs.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Hordfest

I think what frustrated me the most as I alluded to above is the fact that they graded my Joe DiMaggio and Bob Feller and did not find alterations.

All three cards have similar tape damage. All three cards came from the same collection owned by one owner. Doesn't PSA have specialist graders to handle sets like this? I would hope these were assigned to some old timer at PSA who really understands vintage oversized Goudeys and has graded many of them, and that these cards aren't going to random new junior graders who spend 95% of their time on modern cards. But based on the inconsistency i feel like these cards didn't go to the same couple of graders who know the set well.

It’s extremely frustrating. I'm with you there. Three of my last five high-end submissions were handled by graders who simply could not have had any vintage grading experience whatsoever. Turned my SGC 3.5 with no creases or surface flaws into a PSA 1, and SGC 5s into PSA 3s. Just mind-numbing levels of incompetence. And it was every card in those orders too. Then, in my most recent submission I get fair and accurate grades and a $1000 upcharge. It's a complete crapshoot. I have lost all confidence in PSA. The only reason I send them cards at all is because the market is too stupid to figure out that they're actually the least competent graders of any of the big 4.

[Hordfest]

Originally Posted by Snowman

It’s extremely frustrating. I'm with you there. Three of my last five high-end submissions were handled by graders who simply could not have had any vintage grading experience whatsoever. Turned my SGC 3.5 with no creases or surface flaws into a PSA 1, and SGC 5s into PSA 3s. Just mind-numbing levels of incompetence. And it was every card in those orders too. Then, in my most recent submission I get fair and accurate grades and a $1000 upcharge. It's a complete crapshoot. I have lost all confidence in PSA. The only reason I send them cards at all is because the market is too stupid to figure out that they're actually the least competent graders of any of the big 4.

Good morning.

I would love nothing more than to see the hobby move on from PSA, but I'm just not sure how we can drive that change without accepting some monetary loss in the short term. The path dependency is strong and PSA is just so entrenched....

[bass37]

Yes, this is an altered card. You can tell just by looking closely. It's worth 10 bucks.

[Vintagedeputy]

Seeing those cards in SGC slabs, I just cannot understand why anyone would send anything to PSA.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Vintagedeputy

Seeing those cards in SGC slabs, I just cannot understand why anyone would send anything to PSA.

They send for one reason and one reason only, Money. Many collectors love SGC until they sell. Then they start attempting crossing and or cracking.

[babraham]

Originally Posted by bass37

Yes, this is an altered card. You can tell just by looking closely. It's worth 10 bucks.