So who was better ( Kaline or Clemente) ?

[insidethewrapper]

Kaline Clemente

WAR 92.9 94.8
Hits 3007 3000
HR 399 240
Bave .297 .317
R 1622 1416
RBI 1582 1305
SB 137 83
OBP .376 .359
SLG .480 .475
OPS .855 .834
AB 10,116 9,454

Some stats may favor Kaline because he batted 662 more times. But they seem very close in WAR,OBP,SLG and OPS. Both were very great defensive players.
I'll take both on my team.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's interesting that the common perception is that Clemente was significantly better. Ask most people, I think, where they rank both players and I bet on average you would get Clemente 40-50 (or even higher, a poster here had him on his all time starting team) and Kaline 90-100. But the numbers suggest much more of a dead heat.

[G1911]

I’d pick Kaline, by just a hair though. They are very close by any honest assessment.

Clemente was great, and greatly overrated. The emotional narrative is strong, and he fits into a contemporary narrative, as a victim of his times and a great humanitarian with a heroic death. It doesn’t change actual performance, where one may reasonably come down on either side.

What really surprised me is that their slugging is only .005 apart.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I’d pick Kaline, by just a hair though. They are very close by any honest assessment.

Clemente was great, and greatly overrated. The emotional narrative is strong, and he fits into a contemporary narrative, as a victim of his times and a great humanitarian with a heroic death. It doesn’t change actual performance, where one may reasonably come down on either side.

What really surprised me is that their slugging is only .005 apart.

Even leaving aside his death, Clemente had a LOT of charisma and was really a presence at the plate, my brothers and I as kids saw him in the 71WS in Baltimore and we thought we were watching God. There is also something to the notion that Forbes Field kept his HR numbers down some. Also, I think a lot of people (not Topps) admired him for being the first truly great (all respect to Minoso) Latin ballplayer, if I can still use that term.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Even leaving aside his death, Clemente had a LOT of charisma and was really a presence at the plate, my brothers and I as kids saw him in the 71WS in Baltimore and we thought we were watching God. There is also something to the notion that Forbes Field kept his HR numbers down some. Also, I think a lot of people (not Topps) admired him for being the first truly great (all respect to Minoso) Latin ballplayer, if I can still use that term.

Not Topps? I was hoping to get a dozen posts in before it became about race, but when did Topps say or do anything negative about the man? He went by Bob a lot and was not offended by it, as I recall from other threads.

[D. Bergin]

I think it’s more a case of Kaline being under-rated, rather than Clemente being over-rated.

[Rad_Hazard]

I’d say Kaline was better, but we are splitting hairs. Their defense was similar with Clemente having a better dWAR.

Fun fact: kaline won the Roberto Clemente award in 1973

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Not Topps? I was hoping to get a dozen posts in before it became about race, but when did Topps say or do anything negative about the man? He went by Bob a lot and was not offended by it, as I recall from other threads.

https://fourcrickets.wordpress.com/2...emente%20hated.

This Bob vs. Roberto thing was always a point of contention for Clemente, whose Major League debut was in 1955. As a black person whose first language was Spanish, he faced a double dose of discrimination. The media and, obviously, the baseball card company Americanized his given name, calling him “Bob” or “Bobby” or even “Robby,” nicknames that Clemente hated. He had the audacity to insist on being called by his given name, Roberto.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://fourcrickets.wordpress.com/2...emente%20hated.

This Bob vs. Roberto thing was always a point of contention for Clemente, whose Major League debut was in 1955. As a black person whose first language was Spanish, he faced a double dose of discrimination. The media and, obviously, the baseball card company Americanized his given name, calling him “Bob” or “Bobby” or even “Robby,” nicknames that Clemente hated. He had the audacity to insist on being called by his given name, Roberto.

Does anyone have any kind of primary source? I’ve read it both ways now. This blog seems awfully odd (“The card company printed “Bob” but his autograph says “Roberto,” and he’s wearing a triumphant look, and I imagine it all as Roberto’s small act of defiance against the purveyors of cardboard gods and stale, lethally-sharp sticks of pink bubblegum. Right on, Roberto.”) with an agenda. It was commonplace to use “bob”, if Clemente minded and was offended and needed to defiantly resist Topps, why did he keep signing contracts with Topps? Is there any primary source for Topps alleged racism and slandering of him?

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://fourcrickets.wordpress.com/2...emente%20hated.

This Bob vs. Roberto thing was always a point of contention for Clemente, whose Major League debut was in 1955. As a black person whose first language was Spanish, he faced a double dose of discrimination. The media and, obviously, the baseball card company Americanized his given name, calling him “Bob” or “Bobby” or even “Robby,” nicknames that Clemente hated. He had the audacity to insist on being called by his given name, Roberto.

You are absolutely right. I was watching an MLB game the other day and they were talking about cards and they mentioned the "Bob" name (put up example pics of the cards during the telecast) and how Clemente was offended by it and both announcers called it disgraceful.

[Peter_Spaeth]

From the Hall of Fame website.

Another practice of the media also upset Clemente. It did not involve his teammates, but rather had to do with his heritage and ethnicity. A number of writers and broadcasters insisted on calling Clemente “Bob” or “Bobby,” instead of his given name of Roberto. Even Clemente’s baseball cards listed him as “Bob Clemente,” a practice that persisted through the 1969 Topps set. Clemente did not like this practice, an effort at Americanizing him. He felt that it was disrespectful to his Puerto Rican and Latino heritage. When members of the media interviewed him and called him Bob or Bobby directly, he would correct them. “My name is Roberto Clemente,” he said repeatedly. In spite of his complaints, the practice of referring to Clemente as Bob, especially in print, would continue throughout the 1960s.

https://baseballhall.org/discover/ba...o-superstardom

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I think it’s more a case of Kaline being under-rated, rather than Clemente being over-rated.

I think that's probably right, although Bill James makes an interesting case that Clemente was somewhat overrated.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://fourcrickets.wordpress.com/2...emente%20hated.

This Bob vs. Roberto thing was always a point of contention for Clemente, whose Major League debut was in 1955. As a black person whose first language was Spanish, he faced a double dose of discrimination. The media and, obviously, the baseball card company Americanized his given name, calling him “Bob” or “Bobby” or even “Robby,” nicknames that Clemente hated. He had the audacity to insist on being called by his given name, Roberto.

I have never read that Roberto was okay with being called "Bob"
I'd be interested to see where that idea came from.

As for who was the better player--I think it is difficult to make the case that Kaline was a better all-around player. Clemente is arguably the greatest fielding right-fielder ever. Tim McCarver was right when he said about Clemente "some right fielders have rifles for arms, but he had a howitzer."

Clemente led the league in assists by a right fielder five times (1958, 1960, 1961, 1966 & 1967, finishing in the top ten six more times), in putouts by a right fielder twice (1958 & 1961, finishing in the top ten 14 more times), double plays by a right fielder three times (1955, 1961 & 1967, finishing in the top ten 9 more times). Clemente won 12 gold gloves, the most of any RF ever, and tied with Willie Mays as the most by an Outfielder. He is also tied with Jesse Barfield with the highest dWar for a right-fielder with 12.2 (yes I know dWar is flawed, but still).

Clemente was a fantastic hitter, maybe just a hair below Kaline. As someone already pointed out, Clemente's career slugging was only 5 points below Kaline's (.480 to .475) and they were similarly close in OPS and OPS+. Although Kaline clearly had an edge on Clemente in power and walks (Clemente was a bad ball hitter), Clemente's lifetime batting average was 20 points higher than Kaline's.

Let's not discount Clemente having put the Pirates on his back and winning the World Series MVP in '71.

If baseball was only about hitting, Kaline would probably have the edge. But Clemente was a much better fielder than Kaline, and overall a better player.

[Peter_Spaeth]

As mentioned, I was at the WS games that were played in Baltimore in 1971. Obviously a small sample size, but his greatness was truly on display. My dad who had grown up a fan in New York and saw lots of DiMaggio and then Mantle was very enthusiastic about him.

[insidethewrapper]

A much better fielder ? Did you ever see Kaline play Right Field ? His arm was unbelievable, a line drive throw to Home Plate. Again I think they were both great outfielders. Clemente had 100's of outfield assists. I was surprised that Kaline had more SB's.

[mrreality68]

great thread and great conversation.

This thread has opened my eyes more about Kaline and everyone is right Clemente and his personality was larger than life.

It is real close but I would probably give it to Clemente.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

A much better fielder ? Did you ever see Kaline play Right Field ? His arm was unbelievable, a line drive throw to Home Plate. Again I think they were both great outfielders. Clemente had 100's of outfield assists. I was surprised that Kaline had more SB's.

Agreed. Al had 10 gold gloves and a great arm. I tend to like Kaline better simply because I grew up an American League guy. And yes Clemente had an awesome 1971 World Series, but don't forget that Kaline hit .379 with 2 HR and 8 RBI in his only World Series--in the last season of the higher mound during the year of the pitcher.

[ClementeFanOh]

Folks- my ID should give my vote away Truth is they are both incredible. Someone above said RC was “overrated”- right, good call (sarcasm font)…One additional Roberto stat that was true a decade ago, was that he is the only player to appear in at least 14 World Series games, and to hit safely in all of them. Don’t know if recent history has changed that. In other words, clutch…Roberto was great, absolutely NOT overrated, and same for Al Kaline. Trent King

[cgjackson222]

One point that seems fairly obvious, but I don't know if it has been mentioned is Clemente's longevity.

Kaline played in 4 more seasons than Clemente, but was not a a very productive player after 1967. He never got above a WAR of 3 from 1968 through 1974, from age 33 through 39. In his final year, despite having over 600 plate appearances, Kaline slugged .389 and had a WAR of less than 1.

Clemente on the other hand had many of his best years from age 33 and onward. His average WAR from age 33 thru his last year at age 37 was 6.66.
If he could have just gotten over 4 for the next couple years, he would have ended up with a career war over 100, probably right behind Christy Mathewson with the 29th highest WAR ever.

Yes, Kaline was a more productive player than Clemente before age 25. But if Clemente hadn't passed away in 1972, his career stats could have been a lot stronger.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Folks- my ID should give my vote away Truth is they are both incredible. Someone above said RC was “overrated”- right, good call (sarcasm font)…One additional Roberto stat that was true a decade ago, was that he is the only player to appear in at least 14 World Series games, and to hit safely in all of them. Don’t know if recent history has changed that. In other words, clutch…Roberto was great, absolutely NOT overrated, and same for Al Kaline. Trent King

That someone was Bill James. I'll see if I can find his analysis. He rated Roberto somewhere in the 70s (as of 2003 so it would be lower now no doubt).

[Peter_Spaeth]

This may be hard to read given the format but this is James' general discussion of why he thinks people place too much importance on a right fielder's throwing arm.

https://books.google.com/books?id=3u...mente&f=falseI

Still looking for his Clemente specific thoughts.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Folks- my ID should give my vote away Truth is they are both incredible. Someone above said RC was “overrated”- right, good call (sarcasm font)…One additional Roberto stat that was true a decade ago, was that he is the only player to appear in at least 14 World Series games, and to hit safely in all of them. Don’t know if recent history has changed that. In other words, clutch…Roberto was great, absolutely NOT overrated, and same for Al Kaline. Trent King

That was me. He is. His reputation and fame and iconic player status are divorced from his actual performance. Which I called "great". Kaline is rated about right I think; Clemente is generally overrated. His actual production is not near his renown and reputation, where he's become probably a top 10 player. He has many fans, but fans are not the same as performance. I don't think a streak trivia stat is particularly relevant to honest analysis of career performance.

[Peter_Spaeth]

James rated Clemente 74th of all time in 2003. 20 years later, I imagine he would rate him 10 places lower. I wish I could find what he said, I don't have the book any longer. We could then have a meaningful discussion beyond the outraged declarations of how great he was. I am surprised no one has attempted a new take on James' 2003 book in the intervening years.

[G1911]

James 2003 book was what got me into the statistical side of baseball. I don’t agree with everything, but he is always insightful and unique in the approach. The amount of amusing trivia and anecdote in that volume is at least as good as the math.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

James 2003 book was what got me into the statistical side of baseball. I don’t agree with everything, but he is always insightful and unique in the approach. The amount of amusing trivia and anecdote in that volume is at least as good as the math.

Yes, for sure his views are just one more data point, although a pretty informed one.

I LOVED his explanation of why he was confident rating Josh Gibson so high despite the relative lack of reliable stats. It basically came down to, who in history has ever LOOKED more like a hitter. Brilliant, and probably true. Check out some of those great photos of Gibson in his flannels and it's hard to disagree.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This may be hard to read given the format but this is James' general discussion of why he thinks people place too much importance on a right fielder's throwing arm.

https://books.google.com/books?id=3u...mente&f=falseI

Still looking for his Clemente specific thoughts.

In the Bill James book you linked to, Bill James ranks Clemente as the 8th best Righfielder of all-time. He ranks Al Kaline as 11th, so not quite in the top 10.

It is very difficult to find a source that ranks Kaline ahead of Clemente (other than this thread).

The Athletic top 100: Clemente at 40, Kaline at 51

Baseball Egg Top 100: Clemente 32, Kaline 42

ESPN Top 100: Clemente at 27, Kaline at 71 (the gap clearly shouldn't be that big, but I do think you can make a case for Clemente in the top 30).

SABR (from 1999) has Clemente 20, Kaline 59.

The Sporting News Top 100 (from 1998) has Clemente at 20, Kaline at 71

The one source I did find was this Bill James article from 2000 which ranks Kaline as 9 and Clemente as 11 for right-fielders. The fact that it lists Paul Waner ahead of both them though is a bit troubling.

One could say that top 100 lists are typically popularity contests, and to a certain extent they may be. But the Baseball Egg article follows a more quantitative formula. Note that Dan Holmes, the guy that runs the Baseball Egg site mentioned that he is going to be re-ranking the top 100 soon though, so the current ranking of Clemente at 32 and Kaline at 42 could change. I personally would rank them with Clemente around 35 and Kaline around 40.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

In the Bill James book you linked to, Bill James ranks Clemente as the 8th best Righfielder of all-time. He ranks Al Kaline as 11th, so not quite in the top 10.

It is very difficult to find a source that ranks Kaline ahead of Clemente (other than this thread).

The Athletic top 100: Clemente at 40, Kaline at 51

Baseball Egg Top 100: Clemente 32, Kaline 42

ESPN Top 100: Clemente at 27, Kaline at 71 (the gap clearly shouldn't be that big, but I do think you can make a case for Clemente in the top 30).

SABR (from 1999) has Clemente 20, Kaline 59.

The Sporting News Top 100 (from 1998) has Clemente at 20, Kaline at 71

The one source I did find was this Bill James article from 2000 which ranks Kaline as 9 and Clemente as 11. The fact that it lists Paul Waner ahead of both them though is a bit troubling.

One could say that top 100 lists are typically popularity contests, and to a certain extent they may be. But the Baseball Egg article follows a more quantitative formula. Note that Dan Holmes, the guy that runs the Baseball Egg site mentioned that he is going to be re-ranking the top 100 soon though, so the current ranking of Clemente at 32 and Kaline at 42 could change. I personally would rank them with Clemente around 35 and Kaline around 40.

I need to check Hall of Stats. Hmmmm, Clemente 35 Kaline 39.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I think, and it's merely conjecture, that Kaline having his career year at age 20 and then never quite sustaining that level of greatness, where Clemente scuffled a little his first few years and then became a model of consistency even into, what are for many players, his twilight years.

It just leaves you with a different feeling. Kaline was, for all intents and purposes done at 38. Nothing to be ashamed about, but those two last years tarnish how people remember him. Clemente died after his age 37 season hitting .312.

If Kaline had died after his age 37 Season, in which he hit .313, the "what ifs" would've been a huge part of our memory of him. Instead we know what happened. He got old.

[Shoeless Moe]

Man that is close. I never saw either. Looking at stats I'd give the very slight edge to Clemente.

If you compare both from about age 32 on Clemente was still going strong Kaline best years were behind him.

Clemente - Kaline
AGE BA BA
32 .357 .308
33 .291 .287
34 .345 .272
35 .352 .278
36 .341 .294
37 .312 .313

Not that Kaline's BA is bad, he right around .300 for the most part......but Clemente at 32 and older puts up those All Time Greats (Williams, Cobb, Ruth) BA's .357, .345, .352, .341. Not once but 4 times.

To me that gives the edge to Clemente, as they were both great in their 20's.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I need to check Hall of Stats. Hmmmm, Clemente 35 Kaline 39.

I now see the Hall of Stats website with Clemente as 34 and Kaline as 38.

Sounds about right to me

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I think, and it's merely conjecture, that Kaline having his career year at age 20 and then never quite sustaining that level of greatness, where Clemente scuffled a little his first few years and then became a model of consistency even into, what are for many players, his twilight years.

It just leaves you with a different feeling. Kaline was, for all intents and purposes done at 38. Nothing to be ashamed about, but those two last years tarnish how people remember him. Clemente died after his age 37 season hitting .312.

If Kaline had died after his age 37 Season, in which he hit .313, the "what ifs" would've been a huge part of our memory of him. Instead we know what happened. He got old.

Hey, not get all racist on everyone, but Clemente was Puerto Rican, and was aging like a fine wine, much like Jennifer Lopez.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

I now see the Hall of Stats website with Clemente as 34 and Kaline as 38.

Sounds about right to me

Was I on an archived version? Odd. Not making it up.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Was I on an archived version? Odd. Not making it up.

I think the difference is your list has Pujols at 31, and the list I saw doesn't have any active players.

By the way, Hall of Stats ranks Clemente as the 5th best RF ever and Kaline just behind at 6:
http://hallofstats.com/position/rf

In other news, regarding another recent discussion about best catcher ever, Hall of Stats' top 20: 1) Bench 2) Carter 3) Fisk 4) I Rod 5) Piazza 6) Berra 7) Dickey 8) Hartnett 9) Buck Ewing 10) Mauer 11) Ted Simmons 12) Torre 13) Cochrane 14) Campanella 15) G. Tenance 16) Wally Schang 17) Posey 18) Charlie Bennet? 19) Munson 20) Bresnahan (Note that they rank Negro League catchers separately)

[insidethewrapper]

They were very even in the World Series also:

Kaline HR - 2, RBI -8, Bave . 379 OPS 1.055 In 7 games.

Clemente HR - 2, RBI - 7 ,Bave .362 OPS .918 In 14 games.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

They were very even in the World Series also:

Kaline HR - 2, RBI -8, Bave . 379 OPS 1.055 In 7 games.

Clemente HR - 2, RBI - 7 ,Bave .362 OPS .918 In 14 games.

They played chess against each other 8 times and each won 4.

[Casey2296]

Dont know if I could choose between them both of them were loaded with class.
_

[clydepepper]

I think Clemente is the most obvious example of pure stats not showing everything...in his case not nearly everything.


The big difference, IMO, between Kaline's power numbers and Clemente's can be attributed to Clemente playing in Forbes Field for so long. If I'm remembering correctly (and that's a coin flip these days), Roberto was a line-drive, spray hitter and left-center and right-center in Forbes would be quite a poke!


I'll take Clemente eight-days-a-week and thrice on Sunday!



.

[Mike D.]

Loving the Hall of Stats love (my brother runs that site).

Also, a Clemente:

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

Loving the Hall of Stats love (my brother runs that site).

Also, a Clemente:

Very cool! Great website! And great card.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Very cool! Great website! And great card.

Thanks! Most people are shocked to find out that I'm only the SECOND biggest baseball geek in my family.

[Mark17]

They were born in the same year, so about the same age throughout their careers. What I remember is that when the Tigers finally got into the World Series in 1968, Kaline wasn't even going to get regular playing time. He'd hit just .287 during the season, playing in 102 games (he never played in more than 133 games, from 1967 to 1973.) Manager Smith had to take the extraordinary gamble of moving his centerfielder, Mickey Stanley, to play shortstop, to manufacture a spot in the outfield for Al.

Meanwhile, Clemente, in the 1971 Series, hammered out 12 hits, batted over .400, and was the Series MVP.

I'll take Clemente.

By the way, despite his objections, he did sign his name "Bob" for Topps, at least once:

[ClementeFanOh]

To G1911-

Your entire reply to my comment is circular. How can a "great" player be
overrated? Ummm..he can't. And his "actual production" is a large part of
his HOF status- FOUR National League Batting Titles, .317 lifetime average,
defensive prowess, on and on (even the "trivia" about that little thing
called excellence in the World Series). When a player is being ranked by
various entities as somewhere between the 35th and 70th best players of
all time(!), out of a 5 figure pool of players, his "actual production"
MUST be incredible- we aren't discussing E sports heroes here.The renown
and reputation are just icing on a magnificent cake. Nice try, but you're
cornered by your own post. A player simply cannot be "great" with HOF
numbers, and somehow be "overrated". Trent King

PS- And Al Kaline was a bad man as well, no doubt.

[ClementeFanOh]

Almost forgot Mark17- I'm with you all the way! Trent King

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

To G1911-

Your entire reply to my comment is circular. How can a "great" player be
overrated? Ummm..he can't.

This is false. It appears you are looking for "contradictory" (that claims are in complete discord) more than "circular" (that the argument leads into itself), which would be the case if I said "great" and "not great". A player can obviously be great, and overrated. There are levels to it. Babe Ruth is great, Frank Thomas is great. That does not make them the same, it does not mean that a player cannot be under or over rated. Everyone in the top 100 is great; they are not the same.

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

And his "actual production" is a large part of
his HOF status- FOUR National League Batting Titles, .317 lifetime average,
defensive prowess, on and on (even the "trivia" about that little thing
called excellence in the World Series).

Obviously. That's why I called him great.

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

When a player is being ranked by
various entities as somewhere between the 35th and 70th best players of
all time(!), out of a 5 figure pool of players, his "actual production"
MUST be incredible

For the "actual production", yes. That's why I said he was great. Obviously. I do not subscribe to appeals to authority, something is not true or false because an authority says so. Otherwise, we would just take 1 of these rankings and nobody could disagree with it. This fallacy is not compelling.

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

- we aren't discussing E sports heroes here.

What are you even talking about?

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

The renown and reputation are just icing on a magnificent cake. Nice try, but you're
cornered by your own post. A player simply cannot be "great" with HOF
numbers, and somehow be "overrated". Trent King

You are surely capable of being aware that this is not true. A player can be great and overrated. Like Jeter. Like Ryan. Like Clemente. His level of fame is not in acclaim with the math. It doesn't mean he wasn't a great player, but he's not at the very tip top as his popularity would suggest.

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

PS- And Al Kaline was a bad man as well, no doubt.

What are you even talking about?



People really need to grow up and stop getting upset and making absurd claims anytime they encounter an opinion that does not worship their idol. I love Gaylord Perry, he's probably my favorite of the 60's. That doesn't mean I have to overrate him and pretend he was the best in a matchup with another. That I like him doesn't stop me from being cognizant of the math and reality. I am confident others are capable of this simplistic realization.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Of course a great player can be overrated. I am not arguing Clemente is, just pointing out some have made that claim. If the objective evidence points to a player ranking (hypothetically) 50-60, yet public perception is 20-30, that great player is clearly overrated by many. I don't see any circular argument here. And yeah, I don't get the emotional defense either, nobody is insulting Roberto for god's sake, we're just trying to look at his career objectively and to contextualize it.

[ClementeFanOh]

G1911- since you brought up the word “simplistic” and the notion of acting grown up, I’ll point out that you’ve provided your own shovel and dug the hole you are standing in. You’ve also (figuratively) provided a mirror to gaze into, when making snide comments about other people needing to grow up…people like you work hard to make distinctions without differences, parse words, and otherwise strain like mad to extricate themselves from foolish comments they made in a silly effort to appear erudite. In short, there’s a fair chance you’re not as clever as you believe you are. (By the way, the “E sports” comment was about gamers. You know, guys who are great at Madden but can’t actually throw a football. It meant that your commentary was an exercise in mental self gratification rather than legitimate reasoning. I’m stunned someone of your brilliance missed the reference). Trent King

[Jewish-collector]

I was always wondering how to compare these outfielders, because I could never figure out who the hell was better: (not listed in any particular order)

Frank Robinson
Roberto Clemente
Al Kaline
Carl Yastrzemski
Lou Brock
Hank Aaron

How much better was Aaron than Frank ? How much better was Frank than Kaline or Clemente ?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

I was always wondering how to compare these outfielders, because I could never figure out who the hell was better: (not listed in any particular order)

Frank Robinson
Roberto Clemente
Al Kaline
Carl Yastrzemski
Lou Brock
Hank Aaron

How much better was Aaron than Frank ? How much better was Frank than Kaline or Clemente ?

I think Brock and then Yaz bring up the rear there. I would rank Aaron very comfortably in first but no question Frank Robinson was a very great player, I would call him a tier ahead of Clemente and Kaline.

[ClementeFanOh]

Peter Spaeth- I must point out, a bit tongue in cheek, that your defense of
G1911 is essentially a point in my favor. A couple pesky facts:

1) The original post was "Clemente vs Kaline", a compelling question.
G1911 went the "overrated" route, which was NOT the debate. I'm sure
one of you will provide superficial circumlocution to explain it away, of
course. The fact remains HE strayed, and I corrected him.

2) You won't get away with explaining away my reaction as "emotional". I
don't have a nurse handy, so I guess you'll have to decide whether to
believe me when I say my blood pressure hasn't risen one point during
this ridiculous exchange. For Roberto (and Al), the stats and facts speak
for themselves. Their career achievements are stupendous by any
measure.

And one observation:

I've noticed a cadre of folks on this site who really lack perspective on
player "greatness". If the rest of us mere mortals accepted their divine
logic, I'm fairly certain only Babe Ruth would be "rated" properly. Shleps
like Aaron and Mays should just be forgotten, they aren't number one.
Nolan Ryan? His trillion strikeouts and 7 no-nos are trifles, he isn't
actually "great". Rod Carew certainly can't be great, right? I mean, he
did get those SEVEN batting titles with a lifetime .328 average and 3000+
hits, but gosh darn it he never appeared in a Series. He MUST be overrated.

And a conclusion:

Maybe guys who wear tube socks up to their knees and couldn't hit a
pitched beach ball with a wash board, should save the sermons about
"overrated" Hall of Fame players for table talk during fantasy drafts.

Too mean? Who cares.

Trent King

[ClementeFanOh]

Jewish Collector- also an intriguing debate! I'd have to put Hank on top, he
was a production beast. One thing is sure though- I won't call any of them
"overrated" (yep, that was the hoop and the harm!). Trent King