Happy Bobby Bonilla Day

[cammb]

Today Bobby Bonilla receives another 1.19 mil from the Mets. 13 more years to go.

[Leon]

I read an article about this yesterday. Interesting.
.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by cammb

Today Bobby Bonilla receives another 1.19 mil from the Mets. 13 more years to go.

Meh. In 12 years that'll be the cost of general admission tickets for a family of 4 with maybe a hot dog and a drink.

[mrreality68]

Do not forget Baltimore is also paying him $500,000 thru 2029


https://fansided.com/2021/07/01/mets...a-day-orioles/

[ClementeFanOh]

Never cared for the player. Gotta hand it to him/his agent, though.
Remarkable big picture thinking- and I didn't know about the 2nd team owing
him as well. Well played Bobby Bo!

Trent King

[mrreality68]

Actually I wonder does his agent get a percentage of it every year also?

[commishbob]

Copied from another site here’s a partial list of deferred salaries in baseball at the moment. It’s a long list.



The Atlanta Braves paid Bruce Sutter 1.12mil/yr from 1989 through 2021 and a lump sum balloon of 9.1mil in 2022. This has been going since 1985 and with the lump sum will be both a longer and more expensive deferred contract than Bobby Bonilla’s
The Baltimore Orioles will ALSO pay Bobby Bonilla 500k/yr through 2028
Orioles also paying Chris Davis 3.5mil/yr each July 1 from 2023-2032, and $1.4mil/yr from 2033-2035
Orioles also paying Darren O’day 1mil/yr from 2020-2023
Orioles also paying Alex Cobb 5mil/yr from 2022-2025.
Orioles also paying Mark Trumbo 1.5mil/yr through 2022
Orioles also paying Andrew Cashner 1.5mil/yr through 2022
Orioles also paying Ubaldo Jimenez 2.25mil/yr through 2022
The Boston Red Sox will pay Dustin Pedroia 2mil/yr from 2021-2024 and 2.5mil/yr 2025-2028
Red Sox also paying Chris Sale $10mil/yr from 2035-2039, add’l 5mil in 2040 if they exercise 2025 option
Red Sox also paying Manny Ramirez 1.9mil+2.5% interest through 2026
Red Sox also paying Adam Ottavino 3mil in 2022
The Cincinnati Reds will pay Bronson Arroyo 1.3mil/yr through 2021
The Reds also paying Ken Griffey Jr. 3.5mil/yr through2024
The Colorado Rockies will pay Todd Helton 1.3mil/yr with 3% interest through 2024
Rockies also paying Vinny Castilla 106k/yr from 2015-2029
The Chicago Cubs will pay Jason Heyward 5mil/yr from 2024-2027
The Houston Astros will pay Zack Greinke 12.5mil/year from 2022-2026 (Deferral traded with Grienke from the Dbacks.)
The Los Angeles Angels will pay Albert Pujols 10mil/yr for 10 years upon either his retirement or the end of his contract.
The Los Angeles Dodgers paying Freddie Freeman 4.75mil/yr from 2028-2040
The Miami Marlins will pay Wei-yin Chen an average of 12mil/yr through 2022
Marlins will also pay Giancarlo Stanton $10mil/yr from 2026-2028
The Milwaukee Brewers will pay Ryan Braun 1.8mil/yr from 2022-2031
The Brewers also paying Lorenzo Cain 1mil/yr from 2023-2027
The Brewers also paying Matt Garza 2mil/yr through 2021
The Brewers also paying Christian Yelich 2.5mil/year from 2031-2042, more if mutual option exercised.
The New York Mets will pay Bret Saberhagen 250k/yr through 2028
The Mets also paying Bobby Bonilla 1.19mil/yr through 2035
The Mets also paying Jeurys Familia 2mil in 2022
The Mets will also pay Jacob DeGrom an average of 13.5mil/yr from 2035-2039, less if 2024 option declined.
The Mets would have paid David Wright 2mil/yr from 2021-2023, 2.5% interest also due 2023 but renegotiated as part of his retirement.
The Mets also paying Francisco Lindor $5mil/yr from 2032-2041.
The Mets also paid Johan Santana $5mil/yr from 2014-2020.
The Oakland A’s will pay Trevor Rosenthal $3mil/yr from 2022-2023.
The San Francisco Giants will pay Mark Melancon 1mil/yr from 2021-2028.
Giants also paying Anthony DeSclafani $3mil in 2022.
The Seattle Mariners will pay Ichiro 25mil total through 2032 with 5.5% interest (exact details unknown.)
The St. Louis Cardinals will pay Matt Holliday 1.4mil/yr through 2029
The Cardinals also paid Jim Edmongs 3mil/yr from 2010 through 2019
The Texas Rangers are still paying Alex Rodriguez through 2025, but exact terms are unknown due to their 2010 bankruptcy. He was due $26mil at time of the bankruptcy.
The Toronto Blue Jays will pay Troy Tulowitzki 500k+3% interest from 2025-2034
The Washington Nationals will pay Rafael Soriano 2mil/yr through 2024
Nationals also paying Matt Wieters 5mil in 2021
Nationals also paying Stephen Strasburg 10mil/yr from 2024-2030
Nationals also paying Daniel Murphy 3mil in 2020
Nationals also paying Max Scherzer 15mil/yr from 2022-2028
Nationals will pay Ryan Zimmerman 10mil/yr for 5 years from whenever his playing career ends
Nationals also paying Patrick Corbin 3.3mil/yr from 2024-2026
Nationals also paying Brian Dozier 2mil in 2020
Nationals also paying Anibal Sanchez 2mil in 2021
Nationals also paying Brad Hand 2.167mil from 2022-2024

[mrreality68]

Thanks Bob

Amazing list

Never knew about the Bruce Sutter one. Amazed that it was not in the media more especially going on long before Bonilla’s

[ValKehl]

Some of these deferred salary payments appear to have ended in 2019, 2020, and 2021. I wonder why these are still being listed.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Some of these deferred salary payments appear to have ended in 2019, 2020, and 2021. I wonder why these are still being listed.

I think the list maker decided to defer updating it.

Brian

[BobC]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Some of these deferred salary payments appear to have ended in 2019, 2020, and 2021. I wonder why these are still being listed.

Even though some have recently ended, such a list highlights just how many such deferred deals have been entered into over the years, and how more common they may be (and/or becoming) than many would have ever realized.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by BobC

Even though some have recently ended, such a list highlights just how many such deferred deals have been entered into over the years, and how more common they may be (and/or becoming) than many would have ever realized.

I assume some of those were/are designed to avoid the luxury salary tax tiers.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I assume some of those were/are designed to avoid the luxury salary tax tiers.

Probably. Also allows players to push and extend earnings for much longer in the future and ultimately make more in total on a contract. And aside from possibly helping to get some relief from the luxury salary tax, teams also recognize there's a time value to salary money. Instead of agreeing to pay an extra $10M to sign a player, if the team can instead pay that $10M out to a player as an extra $1M a year for 10 years, the team will likely view that as costing them less than it would seem. With inflation and such, $1 paid a year from now is going to be worth less than that same $1 were it paid today. And the $1 paid two years from now will be worth even less than the $1 paid after year one, and so on all the way out to year ten.

[brianp-beme]

It's the Wimpy principle in action...I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today.

Brian

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by BobC

Probably. Also allows players to push and extend earnings for much longer in the future and ultimately make more in total on a contract. And aside from possibly helping to get some relief from the luxury salary tax, teams also recognize there's a time value to salary money. Instead of agreeing to pay an extra $10M to sign a player, if the team can instead pay that $10M out to a player as an extra $1M a year for 10 years, the team will likely view that as costing them less than it would seem. With inflation and such, $1 paid a year from now is going to be worth less than that same $1 were it paid today. And the $1 paid two years from now will be worth even less than the $1 paid after year one, and so on all the way out to year ten.

Not only that, if you can avoid paying the government 20-80 cents on the dollar and give it to the player instead you’ve just cut your offer by that same percentage.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Not only that, if you can avoid paying the government 20-80 cents on the dollar and give it to the player instead you’ve just cut your offer by that same percentage.

And that tax factor can possibly work to the player's benefit as well. You get $10M in one year, you get so much taxed at 10%, then so much taxed at 12%, and so on per the federal tax brackets in place up to where the balance of that $10M salary all gets taxed at the current top federal tax rate of 37%. Break that into ten years of $1M of salary though, and now you have 10 times the amount of salary being taxed at 10% instead of 37%, 10 times the amount taxed at 12% versus 37%, and so on. Unfortunately some of that savings is offset by the additional social security tax the player will also have to pay each of 10 years, but I believe the player still comes out ahead federal tax-wise by extending their salary through deferral.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by BobC

And that tax factor can possibly work to the player's benefit as well. You get $10M in one year, you get so much taxed at 10%, then so much taxed at 12%, and so on per the federal tax brackets in place up to where the balance of that $10M salary all gets taxed at the current top federal tax rate of 37%. Break that into ten years of $1M of salary though, and now you have 10 times the amount of salary being taxed at 10% instead of 37%, 10 times the amount taxed at 12% versus 37%, and so on. Unfortunately some of that savings is offset by the additional social security tax the player will also have to pay each of 10 years, but I believe the player still comes out ahead federal tax-wise by extending their salary through deferral.

very good point.
In the end it was a two decided agreement between the team and player so at the time it was good for each.
Potentially looking back maybe not

[Snapolit1]

Only reason this story even exists is because of financially unsophisticated people piling on the “same old Mets” for what they believe was an insanely stupid deal. The fact that this becomes a huge story every year is a testament to the degree of financial illiteracy in the country.

They basically gave him an annuity. The same thing state lotteries give you if you hit Powerball or a Vegas casino does if you are lucky enough to hit a massive slot machine. Or a structured settlement in a catastrophic injury law suit. It’s almost like there’s some advantage somewhere to holding on to the money you owe someone.

[Oscar_Stanage]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Only reason this story even exists is because of financially unsophisticated people piling on the “same old Mets” for what they believe was an insanely stupid deal. The fact that this becomes a huge story every year is a testament to the degree of financial illiteracy in the country.

They basically gave him an annuity. The same thing state lotteries give you if you hit Powerball or a Vegas casino does if you are lucky enough to hit a massive slot machine. Or a structured settlement in a catastrophic injury law suit. It’s almost like there’s some advantage somewhere to holding on to the money you owe someone.

its actually was a good deal for the team even though it gets press as if it were stupid. They paid 8% interest on the deal.. At the time (2000), 30yr Treasuries were 6-6.5%. Based on this data point, if they went to a bank for a 30-year loan to pay Bonilla the original $6mm, they would likely have had to pay more than 8% (Treasuries + 3-4%) and pledge collateral (which they did not have to with Bonilla) In addition, I am sure there are other benefits dealing directly with the player.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Only reason this story even exists is because of financially unsophisticated people piling on the “same old Mets” for what they believe was an insanely stupid deal. The fact that this becomes a huge story every year is a testament to the degree of financial illiteracy in the country.

They basically gave him an annuity. The same thing state lotteries give you if you hit Powerball or a Vegas casino does if you are lucky enough to hit a massive slot machine. Or a structured settlement in a catastrophic injury law suit. It’s almost like there’s some advantage somewhere to holding on to the money you owe someone.

A lot of those state lotteries give the winner the option of taking either a lump sum amount today, or spreading the payments out over a number of years as an annuity, like you said. The amount of money the person gets if they take the up front, lump sum, is a LOT less than they eventually get if they elect to take the deferred annuity, due to taxes?

Also, I've read where an estimated 90%+ of Powerball winners elect to take the lump sum option, and then about 70% of them end up broke within 7 years. Talk about financial illiteracy!

[Snapolit1]

I was amazed once in Vegas to read the fine print on a slot machine. I think it said something like any jackpot over $150,000 will paid off in 20 annual payments. what a buzz kill that is.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Oscar_Stanage

its actually was a good deal for the team even though it gets press as if it were stupid. They paid 8% interest on the deal.. At the time (2000), 30yr Treasuries were 6-6.5%. Based on this data point, if they went to a bank for a 30-year loan to pay Bonilla the original $6mm, they would likely have had to pay more than 8% (Treasuries + 3-4%) and pledge collateral (which they did not have to with Bonilla) In addition, I am sure there are other benefits dealing directly with the player.

I thought the reason the Mets did this was because their owners were big investors with Bernie Madoff at the time, and they expected to earn a lot more from the money they didn't pay Bonilla in the lump sum than what they agreed to pay him over so many years.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I assume some of those were/are designed to avoid the luxury salary tax tiers.

I think that the average annual value (AAV) of the contract is what is used for calculating a team's salary for purposes of the luxury tax tiers so a 5 year contract for $100 million counts as $20 million toward the team's salary total for the year regardless of how many years money is deferred over. The deferred payment just helps give teams some cash flow flexibility along with some of the other tax benefits others have listed.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by jayshum

I think that the average annual value (AAV) of the contract is what is used for calculating a team's salary for purposes of the luxury tax tiers so a 5 year contract for $100 million counts as $20 million toward the team's salary total for the year regardless of how many years money is deferred over. The deferred payment just helps give teams some cash flow flexibility along with some of the other tax benefits others have listed.

Thanks for the clarification Jay. I'm wondering where the salary tax penalty goes, does it sit in mlbs governing body bank account? When a team pays 80 cents of every dollar over 290 mil it adds up fast.

[GeoPoto]

Scherzer's deal with Washington was $210M/7yrs. The whole $210M counted against their luxury tax computations over the 7 years. But, it was paid $15M/yr for 14 years. Lerner figured the deferred money could stay in real estate partnerships and pay for itself. Scherzer figured he could skinny by on $15/yr. Strasburg also has deferred money. Harper turned down a 10-yr partially deferred deal that would have paid him an expected value (at a 3% discount rate) equal to the 13-yr deal he took from Philly. 10% inflation makes Harper look smart.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[BobC]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

Scherzer's deal with Washington was $210M/7yrs. The whole $210M counted against their luxury tax computations over the 7 years. But, it was paid $15M/yr for 14 years. Lerner figured the deferred money could stay in real estate partnerships and pay for itself. Scherzer figured he could skinny by on $15/yr. Strasburg also has deferred money. Harper turned down a 10-yr partially deferred deal that would have paid him an expected value (at a 3% discount rate) equal to the 13-yr deal he took from Philly. 10% inflation makes Harper look smart.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

From a player's standpoint, you're probably weighing the potential tax savings by deferring your salary against the cost of inflation, as to which ends up being the overall better option. And you also have to recognize and factor in the potential earnings you may forego by taking the deferred salary and not having invested at least some of that money you would have otherwise received a lot earlier. And you also need to factor in other sources of income in later years during your receipt of the deferred payments, the potential tax implications of such, and so on. It is not exactly an easy and forthright calculation to make as to which is always going to be the best option, and will vary from player to player depending on their specific situation, facts, and circumstances.

[FrankWakefield]

Bernie Madoff is a big reason the story exists today.

It was a combination of the economy at the moment The structure was set, the economics of MLB salary restrictions at the time, the money the Mets' owner thought he was getting from investments with Madoff... It's a bunch of stuff.

And ballpark food was gonna go way up anyway.

In 2001 A-Rod's pay goes from about 4 mil a year to 22 mil a year, as he joins Texas. I'm thinking there's 81 home games for Texas. If Texas was paying him out of ticket money from home games, and the Rangers averaged right at 35,000 a game.

22 mil / 81 games = $271.6k a game.

$271.6k / 35,000 = about $7.75 per each butt in a seat.


1981 average ticket price about $5
1994 average ticket price about $10
1999 average ticket price about $15
2004 average ticket price about $20
2021 average ticket price passes $35

By the early 1970s I had a car and could drive 300 miles to St. Louis to the the Cardinals. I'd write off, send a SASE, and get a pocket schedule. I could pick a few games, and mail a check, and would get back in the mail 4 tickets for each of the several games I had picked. I was lifeguarding and DJing in the summer, as a game got close I'd ask friends about going, and once there were 4 of us I'd quit asking. We'd drive to St. Louis, watch a game (or two if a double header) then we'd drive back, getting home about 2:30 or 3:00 am. I remember going when there was the oil embargo / gas shortage, the national guard flew armed helicopters along the Interstate highway, because there was occasional trouble with truckers and others. A ticket was maybe $2.75, gas was maybe $18 and we'd divide that, food and drink was $7 to $10... I could go see a ball game for under $20.

I recall filling up our Suburban at lunch on a Thursday work day, the day before we were leaving early Friday morning. This was around 2001... It cost just over $100 to fill the tank. That annoyed me a bit. Tickets were $37.50 each, 6 tickets for me, wife, 3 kids and daughter in law. I'd gotten 2 rooms at a hotel close to the ballpark, that was just under $900 for 2 nights. After getting the gas and back to work that Thursday, someone asks me if I'm excited to be going to see baseball games the coming weekend. I looked at them and said "no." Surprised, they asked why. I told them as a teenager I could drive 300 miles to St Louis and see a game for about $20; but now, I've already spent about $1000 and I haven't even left the driveway.

It's a lot of stuff... stuff costs more now, the economy, greater ticket prices, beer (for the cost of a nowadays beer I could have bought 2 cases back in the 70s)... and on top of all of those factors there's the Bernie Madoff factor with Bonilla, the Mets owner thought he'd be getting money there that would more than pay the future Bonilla payments.

[FrankWakefield]

Winning over $150k and waiting for those annual payments would give me a bit of a buzz...

[Snapolit1]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...-new-york-mets

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Bernie Madoff is a big reason the story exists today.

It was a combination of the economy at the moment The structure was set, the economics of MLB salary restrictions at the time, the money the Mets' owner thought he was getting from investments with Madoff... It's a bunch of stuff.

And ballpark food was gonna go way up anyway.

In 2001 A-Rod's pay goes from about 4 mil a year to 22 mil a year, as he joins Texas. I'm thinking there's 81 home games for Texas. If Texas was paying him out of ticket money from home games, and the Rangers averaged right at 35,000 a game.

22 mil / 81 games = $271.6k a game.

$271.6k / 35,000 = about $7.75 per each butt in a seat.


1981 average ticket price about $5
1994 average ticket price about $10
1999 average ticket price about $15
2004 average ticket price about $20
2021 average ticket price passes $35

By the early 1970s I had a car and could drive 300 miles to St. Louis to the the Cardinals. I'd write off, send a SASE, and get a pocket schedule. I could pick a few games, and mail a check, and would get back in the mail 4 tickets for each of the several games I had picked. I was lifeguarding and DJing in the summer, as a game got close I'd ask friends about going, and once there were 4 of us I'd quit asking. We'd drive to St. Louis, watch a game (or two if a double header) then we'd drive back, getting home about 2:30 or 3:00 am. I remember going when there was the oil embargo / gas shortage, the national guard flew armed helicopters along the Interstate highway, because there was occasional trouble with truckers and others. A ticket was maybe $2.75, gas was maybe $18 and we'd divide that, food and drink was $7 to $10... I could go see a ball game for under $20.

I recall filling up our Suburban at lunch on a Thursday work day, the day before we were leaving early Friday morning. This was around 2001... It cost just over $100 to fill the tank. That annoyed me a bit. Tickets were $37.50 each, 6 tickets for me, wife, 3 kids and daughter in law. I'd gotten 2 rooms at a hotel close to the ballpark, that was just under $900 for 2 nights. After getting the gas and back to work that Thursday, someone asks me if I'm excited to be going to see baseball games the coming weekend. I looked at them and said "no." Surprised, they asked why. I told them as a teenager I could drive 300 miles to St Louis and see a game for about $20; but now, I've already spent about $1000 and I haven't even left the driveway.

It's a lot of stuff... stuff costs more now, the economy, greater ticket prices, beer (for the cost of a nowadays beer I could have bought 2 cases back in the 70s)... and on top of all of those factors there's the Bernie Madoff factor with Bonilla, the Mets owner thought he'd be getting money there that would more than pay the future Bonilla payments.

Frank, your story makes me thank the baseball gods that we have a minor league park within driving distance. Haven't been there since Covid but tickets were 7 bucks, 14 if you wanted front row, parking was less than 10, "Beer Batter" specials where if a chosen opposing batter struck out beers were .25 cents until the start of the next inning, we sang Neil Diamond "Sweet Caroline" for the 7th inning stretch, kids can run the bases after the game, my sons little league team could run them between innings, you can catch a fly ball in your 12 dollar BBQ plate off the left field line, my kid can wait outside the locker room door and get the signature of some guy who will never see the bigs but who cares, that's baseball, and it gets harder to find every day.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Thanks for the clarification Jay. I'm wondering where the salary tax penalty goes, does it sit in mlbs governing body bank account? When a team pays 80 cents of every dollar over 290 mil it adds up fast.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_...all_luxury_tax

Allocation of taxes paid
On December 2 in each contract year, the Commissioner's Office notifies every team that exceeded the tax threshold that they must pay their tax by January 21 of the following calendar year. The Commissioner's Office then redistributes this money in a standard manner. The first $13 million will be used to defray clubs' funding obligations under the MLB Players Benefits Agreements. Of the remaining sum, 50% of the remaining proceeds collected for each Contract Year, with accrued interest, will be used to fund player compensation as described in the MLB Players Benefits Plan Agreements and the other 50% shall be distributed to clubs that did not exceed the Base Tax Threshold in that Contract Year.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by jayshum

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_...all_luxury_tax

Allocation of taxes paid
On December 2 in each contract year, the Commissioner's Office notifies every team that exceeded the tax threshold that they must pay their tax by January 21 of the following calendar year. The Commissioner's Office then redistributes this money in a standard manner. The first $13 million will be used to defray clubs' funding obligations under the MLB Players Benefits Agreements. Of the remaining sum, 50% of the remaining proceeds collected for each Contract Year, with accrued interest, will be used to fund player compensation as described in the MLB Players Benefits Plan Agreements and the other 50% shall be distributed to clubs that did not exceed the Base Tax Threshold in that Contract Year.

Thanks again Jay, seems an equitable arrangement to keep parity in the league.

[irishdenny]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XGAmPRxV48