Ethics Question...OK or Crazy

[jingram058]

Recently I bought 4 t205 and 2 t206 cards. One of the t205s was Hal Chase. In looking all these fellows up, I did not like what I read about Chase. He made Cicotte, Gandil, Weaver, et al, look like kindergarten. Not a very likeable guy at all. So I took that card and cut it up, and flushed it. I ask you, was that crazy? Have any of you gone and done something extreme like that? In putting my 53 Bowman color set together, I came across Solly Hemus and Enos Slaughter. I don't like those guys either, and the only reason I am keeping them is in order to have a complete set.

[butchie_t]

to each their own.

Personally, no, I would not do that if they were mine. But they are not and it does not matter.

Cheers,

[jjp3rd]

I am not sure I understand cutting up the cards...if everyone did that, eventually their cards would increase in value and become even more sought after, which would seem to be counter to your motivation.

There are a number of players (and teams) whom I don’t collect, but I don’t trash their cards, I simply avoid buying them unless, as you suggest with your 50’s cards, I am building a set.

You have the right to do whatever you want with your stuff, but I am not sure creating more scarcity is a good way to de-emphasize a player’s cards.


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[ALBB]

Yes, I agree... Id cut it up and burn it..along with any other T cards of unsavory characters

[zoomfest]

Ty Cobb was a major jerk and not well liked as well. As such, feel free to give me all of your Cobb cards and I will make sure that you will never have to see that ass again.

[butchie_t]

Honus Wagner ate babies for lunch. It is a little known fact.......so.......Bring'em.

[christopher.herman]

Originally Posted by zoomfest

Ty Cobb was a major jerk and not well liked as well. As such, feel free to give me all of your Cobb cards and I will make sure that you will never have to see that ass again.

+1

[chadeast]

Chase was certainly an unsavory character, but not sure why it compelled you to destroy the card. It's a picture of someone from 100+ years ago on a piece of cardboard after all. I'm guessing it must have given you some kind of catharsis. It is your card, so to each his own.

[wazoo]

Nope. No. Never. I think your heart is in the right place but feels like destruction of a piece of history.

[BabyRuth]

The question was OK or Crazy?
I vote for Crazy

[brianp-beme]

Please in the future read up on players before you purchase vintage cards so as to avoid feeling like you have to destroy a piece of history to have peace of mind.

Brian

[rholmes]

So what's next? You going to march off to burn some books?

And by the way, there are guys on N54 who actually COLLECT Hal Chase. I mean, they actively seek out his cards and photos and memorabilia, and pay money for them. Imagine that horror. This board is a freakin cesspool of maniac devil lovers!

[rats60]

Andrew Jackson wasn't very likeable. Do you burn all of your $20 bills? I can understand not wanting his card. Sell it or give it to someone else. Destroying cards that others collect is wrong.

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by rholmes

So what's next? You going to march off to burn some books?

And by the way, there are guys on N54 who actually COLLECT Hal Chase. I mean, they actively seek out his cards and photos and memorabilia, and pay money for them. Imagine that horror. This board is a freakin cesspool of maniac devil lovers!

LOVE the devil??? No, make a pact with the devil......it depends.

[JollyElm]

He that is without sin among you, let him be the first to cut up the cardboard.

[jingram058]

I did it in a total loss of self-control over what a jerk this guy was, a total extreme over-reaction. All together, I paid $500 for 6 cards, none in pristine condition. Yes, I guess I should have sent the Chase card to someone who would want it. I now regret that I went all over the top and destroyed it. I won't ever do it again. Needless to say, I did not cut up Gabby Street, Jack Quinn or Art Fletcher.

[Leftyndv10]

So when do you plan on destroying example of like 400 other subjects in the T sets? The set is full of drunkards, thieves, racists, adulterers, and basically any other negative social namesake you can think of, sorry to burst whatever bubble you’ve been collecting in haha.

Guy cuts up card of a jerk but overlooks the dudes who fixed games on the reg and caused the biggest stain in the sports history? Laughable

Honestly the dumbest thing I’ve read in years if this isn’t a troll post.

[jingram058]

Not a troll post, and I couldn't care any less what you think, Lefty. Who cares what you think. And I am not laughing.

[Leftyndv10]

You literally asked the internets judgements of your actions, therefore quite literally, you do care what people think....

[wazoo]

Originally Posted by Leftyndv10

You literally asked the internets judgements of your actions, therefore quite literally, you do care what people think....

+1

[egri]

George Washington, Andrew Jackson, and Alexander Hamilton all have skeletons in their closets for things far worse than what Chase did, and I'm sure if we dug deep enough we could find something on Ben Franklin, Ulysses Grant and Abraham Lincoln as well. Anyone who doesn't want to look at their pictures is free to send me all their money, and I'll make sure they never have to see their likeness again.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Leftyndv10

You literally asked the internets judgements of your actions, therefore quite literally, you do care what people think....

You are right, I do care, just not you and your antagonistic, smug, condescending comments. That is my final word on it to you.

It was an act of bad judgement, irresponsible even. But it's done. I can't put the card back together again.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by egri

George Washington, Andrew Jackson, and Alexander Hamilton all have skeletons in their closets for things far worse than what Chase did, and I'm sure if we dug deep enough we could find something on Ben Franklin, Ulysses Grant and Abraham Lincoln as well. Anyone who doesn't want to look at their pictures is free to send me all their money, and I'll make sure they never have to see their likeness again.

As a Relative of William T Sherman, burn ME! Collecting is hell

[realbigfatdog]

Originally Posted by BabyRuth

The question was OK or Crazy?
I vote for Crazy

+1. I actually thought this was a joke thread at first. This might have been the stupidest thing I've ever read.

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[doug.goodman]

How is this an ethics question?

[Bobbycee]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

As a Relative of William T Sherman, burn ME! Collecting is hell

Funny use of history. I'm a distant relative of his as well.

I wouldn't have cut up the card. Always remember to step back and cool off before making a decision stemming from anger.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by realbigfatdog

+1. I actually thought this was a joke thread at first. This might have been the stupidest thing I've ever read.

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You must be new to n54! Stick around

[philliesfan]

I vote crazy.

Nothing was gained with cutting it up.

Would you cut up and flush a T3 or any other card of Chase?

[todeen]

While I wouldn't cut up the card, I don't think this is a stupid thread. We've had this conversation about collecting cards of unsavory people. Quite often someone says, "I am collecting 1970 Topps fb, but I don't want to buy the OJ Simpson card...." As has been stated, there are other unsavory characters that some of us don't want in our collections.

Cutting up the card was poorly thought out, but wanting to feel consciously clean about collecting sports cards is perfectly fine.

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by egri

I'm sure if we dug deep enough we could find something on Ben Franklin, Ulysses Grant and Abraham Lincoln as well.

Uhh, you don't need to dig very deep in regard to Franklin. He was reputedly quite the libertine during his time as ambassador to France.

Having said that, I don't get destroying a card.

I mean, do get not wanting to reward despicable characters. In terms of those that still alive, this would normally take the form of a boycott with the intent of not having your hard earned dollars ending up in their pocket. In terms of historical figures, like Chase or someone like Nathan Bedford Forrest, you obviously can't harm/withhold reward from them, but you can refuse to participate in their celebration and work to balance the hagiography with truth. Destroying a card being held in a private collection really doesn't do any of that. It just seems...performative.

[chadeast]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Please in the future read up on players before you purchase vintage cards so as to avoid feeling like you have to destroy a piece of history to have peace of mind.

Brian

+1. My thoughts exactly.

[Casey2296]

One must be careful of Presentism or the Nunc Pro Tunc fallacy where one does not depict the past in objective historical context but instead views history only through the lens of contemporary beliefs.

History should not be sugar coated nor vilified, it's history, it's what happened. You (not you) may have been a "worse" person than Mr. Chase if you were raised in his environment, one never knows.

Ty Cobb was salty as hell and not well liked, he was also raised in a pretty brutal environment, he also financed a Memorial Hospital in Georgia that is now part of the St. Mary's Healthcare System. He also helped a lot of teammates who were down on their luck. It's just history.

We learn from our past so we hopefully don't repeat the mistakes we may have made.

[ullmandds]

Call it what u will...but it was the op’s card so he can do whatever he wants with it.

[realbigfatdog]

For what it's worth, I love this "despicable" player, personally. I would have been happy to take that card and give it a living home. Reading the OP brought a tear to my eye.....

#FreeHalChase


(I have no idea why these photos wont upload properly)

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by realbigfatdog

For what it's worth, I love this "despicable" player, personally. I would have been happy to take that card and give it a living home. Reading the OP brought a tear to my eye.....

#FreeHalChase


(I have no idea why these photos wont upload properly)

You better never invite the OP (jingram058) over for dinner.

[FrankWakefield]

Impulsive, that's what it was...

OK, because you owned it.

A bit of momentary craziness for cutting the card up...


I'm no fan of Kirby Puckett. I think the Hall should have never put him in. Numbers aren't strong enough, played to short a time, numbers he has are a bit skewed because of that trash bag ball park... and then there is the domestic violence. (And I know there are fanatical fans who adored his play and that ball park.) With that in mind, I just don't gather / collect KP cards. I understand that you didn't know about him until after you got the card.

So, I think that 'real crazy' would be to keep buying Chase cards so they could be cut up.


Maybe, next time, when you start hating on a player who's card you have, sell the card and then buy other cards or donate the card proceeds to a charity.

I think I've got an early OJ Simpson card, I have a Ben Chapman premium; I don't wanna cut them up. And I actually like Enos Slaughter, primarily because he was a Cardinal. He has stuff to say in When It Was A Game. I don't doubt that he didn't do a few things that would make me cringe today. Truly, we are all products of our times. Golly, I did stuff 55 years ago of which I'm not proud. I don't like to completely judge someone by the solitary one worst thing they ever did (maybe Chase did more that one thing). I think the better approach has such judgement being done with a totality of what a person has done.

Find an old time collector who knows the story about TCMA cards... Maybe it goes like this: Michael Aronstein collected ball cards and was wanting cards of old teams without spending a fortune. MA got some help from an uncle who had artistic skills. Then MA got together with Tom Collier, and the two of them would spend weekends going to card shows far and wide. They started producing cards, TCMA... They also collected and traded old cards. As the story might go, at one point the wife of one of them was fed up with her husband going to card shows on weekends instead of being with her. She knew her husband loved his cards. He returned home after a long weekend trip to find that his wife had dug out his valuable old cards and cut each card in half, leaving the halves laying on their bed... maybe.

Just didn't want anyone to not know about other ways cards could get cut, if a bit of momentary craziness sets in.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Recently I bought 4 t205 and 2 t206 cards. One of the t205s was Hal Chase. In looking all these fellows up, I did not like what I read about Chase. He made Cicotte, Gandil, Weaver, et al, look like kindergarten. Not a very likeable guy at all. So I took that card and cut it up, and flushed it. I ask you, was that crazy? Have any of you gone and done something extreme like that? In putting my 53 Bowman color set together, I came across Solly Hemus and Enos Slaughter. I don't like those guys either, and the only reason I am keeping them is in order to have a complete set.

In my opinion, committing an intentionally outlandish act and then telling everyone here about it has nothing to do with ethics.

Ethics are defined by what one does when nobody else will know.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Eric72

In my opinion, committing an intentionally outlandish act and then telling everyone here about it has nothing to do with ethics.

Ethics are defined by what one does when nobody else will know.

Well, for me there is some form of penitence in getting it off my chest, and to me, that is ethical. Nobody had to know, I just thought it was the right thing to do to get it out in the open on this forum. I don't really think I need to wallow in insults, though, but I guess that is how it is. And I will be honest, while I had heard of Hal Chase before buying these cards, I knew nothing of his wilful and open throwing of games.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Please in the future read up on players before you purchase vintage cards so as to avoid feeling like you have to destroy a piece of history to have peace of mind.

Brian

That cards traveled and survived 110 years just for that ending? ugh

[frankbmd]

Hitler died in 1945. Okay

Chase died in 1947. Crazy

I doubt that I would have to think very long about whether to cut up a holocaust architect or a baseball player, and neither would feel my knife.

Consider therapy.

[toledo_mudhen]

Hilarious thread!

Been messin with cards for 30+ years now and can honestly say that I have never purposely destroyed one - so my vote is for "crazy" on this one.

Possible "covid lockdown" temporary insanity?

[JustinD]

I feel as though this entire thread lends itself nicely into a soliloquy on the current thought of today’s society and reverence of the past.

[Compsella]

I actually destroyed a card once. I was 12. Was with my mom at the mall. Had just bought an '88 Donruss rack pack. And my mom dragged me to JCPenney as she quite literally tried on every blouse in the GD store. I was bored as hell and my hair was a mess. Being a pubescent pre-teen I was very self-conscious of my appearance so I took a card (I think it was either Juan Berenguer or Jeff Reardon), and tore little triangles out of one side. So I created my own makeshift '88 Donruss comb. Wish I still had that thing.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I feel as though this entire thread lends itself nicely into a soliloquy on the current thought of today’s society and reverence of the past.

What is "the current thought of today's society" ?

[cammb]

Don't believe a word!!

[One 'ol Cat]

It is yours to do with what you will. But collectibles are sort of a different artifact. I mean, if you collect old coins, or stamps, or old baseball cards, they have been owned and preserved by perhaps generations of collectors. We owe a debt, for example to all of the 8 and 10 year old boys who first collected and then preserved the early issues of cards from the nineteenth and early 20th century. To them, they must have held a special place in their memories, because they certainly (to a large extent), held on to them into their adult years.
I mean, people have stamps with Adolf Hitler pictured on them. If I felt that strongly about the person depicted, I would have auctioned it off to someone who (for whatever reason) collects Hal Chase, and then given the proceeds to your favorite charity. But that was me. And that probably sounds like moralizing. But you asked...

[jingram058]

Yes, it was clearly a stupid thing to do. But it's off my chest, and I won't do anything like that again.

And now, on a positive note, my daughter asked me what I would like for Father's Day. Yes, I do have other t201, t202, t205, t206 cards and even an n284 Buchner Gold Coin card. No, I did not cut them up. Not enough to start an album with, but I saw an empty cigarette box on eBay from 1909. Perfect for storing my small stash of tobacco cards.

[topcat61]

Why not do research on the players first and not make the purchase instead of cutting up a 110 year old card? This problem you might have going forward is that the majority of ball players and those in the Hall of fame might not be people you would want to have a beer with if you knew what they've done on or off a field. Reading this post I felt crazy; I've never heard of such a thing, and what's more, why are you judging someone of another era to today's standards?

Hal Chase is permanently banned from the Hall of Fame and for good reason, but he's still a significant player in the history of the game. I would read more on the players and probably start with "The Glory of Their Times: The Story of the Early Days of Baseball Told by the Men Who Played It" by Lawrence Ritter. Hope you dont do that with a Ruth, Cobb or Ted Williams?

[jjp3rd]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Yes, it was clearly a stupid thing to do. But it's off my chest, and I won't do anything like that again.

And now, on a positive note, my daughter asked me what I would like for Father's Day. Yes, I do have other t201, t202, t205, t206 cards and even an n284 Buchner Gold Coin card. No, I did not cut them up. Not enough to start an album with, but I saw an empty cigarette box on eBay from 1909. Perfect for storing my small stash of tobacco cards.

That’s sounds like a great way to store them!!


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[topcat61]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

As a Relative of William T Sherman, burn ME! Collecting is hell

Ted I had no idea your relatives were John and William T? Very cool! I just read John Sherman's two volume autobiography for my articles on him - a very interesting and equally historically important guy, especially in the rarity of tobacco cards.