Carl Horner Cabinets

[Cmount76]

How many original Carl Horner mounted cabinets exist, on average, per player? Were these widely distributed? How would you obtain one? Any and all information would be helpful.

Oh, and DEFINITELY, show 'em if ya got 'em!

(I just got my first from a fellow board member- scans forthcoming)

[packs]

Here's my cabinet of Harry Barton of the 1905 Athletics:

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by packs

Here's my cabinet of Harry Barton of the 1905 Athletics:

I had no idea Peter Fonda was an Athletic as a young man.

[sb1]

Although multiple cabinets probably were made or could have been if desired, most players have only one it seems. Once in a great while you will find two of the same player. This pertains to images on original mounts.

There are multiples of some of the more prominent players of day in photo only format, which were likely used by newspapers and other sports publications of the day in their print materials. That being said, some of the current day photographs that are offered, are ones that show evidence of being pulled from their mounts.

[detroitbaseball]

sb1 ... awesome Carl Horner cabinet of Charles "Boss" Schmidt.

[sb1]

Thanks, here's another Detroit player, a little more unknown...

[terjung]

Horner cabinets are probably the most underrated collectible in the hobby, IMO. They suffer from a lack of having an ACC number and that probably keeps their price down. When you have them in hand, they are absolutely gorgeous!

[detroitbaseball]

Originally Posted by sb1

Thanks, here's another Detroit player, a little more unknown...

Another beauty. You have me stumped on who this guy is.

[sb1]

Kid Speer, he only played in the Majors in 1909. Pitched in 12 games with a 4-4 record.

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by terjung

Horner cabinets are probably the most underrated collectible in the hobby, IMO. They suffer from a lack of having an ACC number and that probably keeps their price down. When you have them in hand, they are absolutely gorgeous!

Totally agree. Horner’s cabinets are absolutely memorizing. I like the sets that utilize his portraits too, but nothing beats the clarity of Horner’s originals.

[packs]

This one was cut from a larger premium:

[detroitbaseball]

Originally Posted by sb1

Kid Speer, he only played in the Majors in 1909. Pitched in 12 games with a 4-4 record.

Thanks for the info. I've never heard of him so naturally I had to look him up on Baseball-Reference.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...peerki01.shtml

[detroitbaseball]

Ty Cobb
Kid Elberfeld
Rube Kisinger
Charles Schmidt
Kid Speer

Does anyone know of any other Detroit Tigers Carl Horner cabinets? Is there a checklist of known cabinets?

The Kid Elberfeld & Rube Kisinger cabinets are not mine. I found these pics on the internet.

[Bpm0014]

I have a George Mullin. Just the Horner pic; sans cabinet.

[bgar3]

My information on the Horner cabinets is dated, mostly from the the 80’s and 90’s, and my memory may be faulty, but here are some random recollections
They were always considered to be among the best if not the best photographs.
There are many different types and colors of mounts.
There are several presentation team pieces, the earliest I remember are the 1903 Pirates and Boston, (possibly 1904 also), and the entire American League from 1903 (I think Leon owns this)
In light of the above, I think all the Detroit team from that time period exist
I have seen multiple cabinets of stars and regular players
Hornets seemed to really begin to be more recognized and popular during and after the Baseball Magazine Christie sale where I think Walter Johnson was the first lot and blew past all the estimates. There were so many Horners in the sale they were included in lots.
The “premimium” above is most likely cut from one of the presentation pieces. I have seen several of the A’s over time.

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by bgar3

Horners seemed to really begin to be more recognized and popular during and after the Baseball Magazine Christie sale where I think Walter Johnson was the first lot and blew past all the estimates. There were so many Horners in the sale they were included in lots.

There were many Horner cabinets in the 1996 Chrisite's sale of the Photographic Archives of the Baseball Magazine. Some were sold as individual lots and many others were included in larger lots. Walter Johnson was sold individually, but it was lot 243. Wager was also, but was part of the Sports Memorabilia sale the following day. The Famous T206 Wagner was lot 717 and the Horner of Wagner was lot 718. Other lots featuring individual Horner cabinets included Collins, Young in a unique pitching pose, Walsh, Joss, Tinker, Chance, Griffith, Brown and Chance.

Most sold in the $1,000 to $2,000 range. Johnson was $3,450 and Wagner $23,000.

[drcy]

They are rare. For most players, I would imagine the population report is 1-3.

Follow the auctions and you will see them for sale. While each image is rare, there is a wide variety out there.

[bgar3]

Thanks for filling in the facts Kevin. I was there and the buzz in the room was incredible when the Johnson sold, not sure what the estimate was, but it was way below that number. Was I correct that it was the first lot?
I also know there were Horners that were not even listed in lots.

[sb1]

Another Tiger for your checklist Couhglin

[sb1]

And a Mullin I also have, that's all the Tigers for me...

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by bgar3

Thanks for filling in the facts Kevin. I was there and the buzz in the room was incredible when the Johnson sold, not sure what the estimate was, but it was way below that number. Was I correct that it was the first lot?
I also know there were Horners that were not even listed in lots.

Johnson and the rest of the individual Horners (except Wagner) were in the middle of the first session on Saturday. Johnson sold for $3,450 vs an estimate of $1,000 to $1,500.

The Wagner was in the middle of the second day and sold for $23,000 - 10X the estimate of $2,000 to $3,000.

The #1 lot in the sale was the photo used for Mantle's 1951 Bowman card.

And yes, there were quite a few Horner cabinets included in lots where they were not even specifically listed.

[bgar3]

Thanks Kevin, I said my memory bight be faulty.

[detroitbaseball]

sb1,

Thanks for taking the time to post pics of your Detroit Tigers Carl Horner cabinets. I really appreciate it. Those are awesome. I've never seen any of those before. The George Mullin pose is especially cool.

[Leon]

Great looking cards in this thread. How can anyone not love Horner photos? If I branched out, and had more money, I would collect them.

.

[Bpm0014]

If you look closely, George Mullin is giving the finger (on the bat). I just noticed that.

[Bpm0014]

And has a smirk on his face haha.

[detroitbaseball]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

If you look closely, George Mullin is giving the finger (on the bat). I just noticed that.

Maybe that's where Billy Martin got the idea for his 1972 Topps #33.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Baseball Rarities

Johnson and the rest of the individual Horners (except Wagner) were in the middle of the first session on Saturday. Johnson sold for $3,450 vs an estimate of $1,000 to $1,500. The Wagner was in the middle of the second day and sold for $23,000 - 10X the estimate of $2,000 to $3,000. The #1 lot in the sale was the photo used for Mantle's 1951 Bowman card. And yes, there were quite a few Horner cabinets included in lots where they were not even specifically listed.

I was the underbidder on the WaJo Horner. I actually thought I would get it, being prepared to go up to 3K. But when I saw that Bill Mastro was leaving his hand up for whatever it took to win the HOFers, I realized it wasn't going to be. I drove him up to my final bid, then bowed out. It turned out Bill was bidding for legendary collector Marshall Fogel on all the prominent Horners, and I first met Marshall when he came over and apologized for outbidding me on the Johnson. I said that if he was really sorry, he'd sell it to me, and we both laughed. Probably everything that sold in that auction would be regarded as a fantastic bargain today, none more so than the large team lots that turned out to be full of Conlons, Thompsons, Van Oeyens, etc. Of course that was 25 years ago, one of the great events in hobby history.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I was the underbidder on the WaJo Horner. I actually thought I would get it, being prepared to go up to 3K. But when I saw that Bill Mastro was leaving his hand up for whatever it took to win the HOFers, I realized it wasn't going to be. I drove him up to my final bid, then bowed out. It turned out Bill was bidding for legendary collector Marshall Fogel on all the prominent Horners, and I first met Marshall when he came over and apologized for outbidding me on the Johnson. I said that if he was really sorry, he'd sell it to me, and we both laughed. Probably everything that sold in that auction would be regarded as a fantastic bargain today, none more so than the large team lots that turned out to be full of Conlons, Thompsons, Van Oeyens, etc. Of course that was 25 years ago, one of the great events in hobby history.

No doubt those all would have been steals today. When I see numbers like that I equate it to some stocks. What if we bought Amazon or Apple 10 yrs ago?

Interestingly the only relatively valuable thing I kept from my first collection sale (shown before) is a Horner photo. I still remember the large trade deal I did to acquire it as I had very little cash but lots of cards!!

[lumberjack]

I was at that auction as well, sitting between two dead ball era collectors. Mastro was bidding on everything at the beginning of the auction. He was just blowing everybody out of the water. My friend to my left said, "I was afraid of this...."

The man to my right just collected 1912 Sox. He got into a bidding war with someone calling on the phone re. a lot of Thompson head shots of Red Sox. When it was over, the price came out to a little over $100 a photo, which was an insane amount of money. We later discovered he had been bidding against the management of the Red Sox.

The team lots were a pretty good deal, but they included too many photos that had been marked up by the art department at BB Mag.

Not going after the Horners was our great regret. The HOFers went for big bucks, but there were lots that included marked up shots and unmounted cabinets that went for reasonable prices.

That was a great couple of days. You could preview the photos on Thursday and the auction began the following day. The staff would bring you a binder filled with a particular lot. Christie's East was the venue the house used for material they considered to be of lesser value, but it was a publicity goldmine and was written up in The New York Times. I believe that George Steinbrenner attended the second day. The artist Richard Merkin was sitting across the aisle from me, which was kind of cool. He was the only guy in the building who had been on the cover of Sergeant Pepper.

The auction house got in trouble with the federal government over the way they had been conducting auctions and about a year or so later I received a small check from Christie's. Al Taubman, who was running the place when he wasn't building shopping malls, later went to prison for his role in all of that.

It seems as though everyone (almost everyone) I have purchased photos from has gone to jail.

This is getting off track but does anybody care to start a new thread about that '96 BB Mag auction?
lumberjack

[bgar3]

Michael,
Holy crap, that idiot was me. Thank you for not ridiculing me. Yes, it was the Red Sox. I did manage to average my expense by picking up some lots that were chock full of great things. I think I even sold the Jimmy Collins that was in the 1912 Red Sox lot to someone right there. Was that you? I can’t believe we were sitting next to each other. Still a great memory.
I am not sure what else I could contribute to the auction thread, but I would love to read it.

[lumberjack]

Bruce,
Actually, we all thought it was pretty astounding, although the five of us sitting in that row all looked as though we had been hit in the head with shovels. Maybe you don't recall, but you purchased another lot of Thompson Sox and sold me about five of them as they were either dupes or things you didn't focus on. In all, it was the smart move.
mike

[bgar3]

Mike, you all felt sorry for me and made me feel a little better. The lots were gold mines. Thank you.

[Kris19]

I did not attend the Christie's auction in 1996, but I do have the photo that was used for the catalog cover. This may bring back some memories.

[lumberjack]

Okay, this is the shakedown for Horner photos in the 1996 auction.

Lot # 14 was a mounted cabinet of Vic Willis which sold below estimate @ $500.

Lots 241 and 242 thru 252 featured mounted cabinets of the Eddie Collins,
Charles Barnard, T.J. Lynch, Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Ed Walsh, Joss, Tinker,
Billy Hamilton, Griffith, Three-Finger Brown and Chance. They all went for around the house estimate of 8 hundred to 1200 dollars. Johnson was the most expensive at three grand. The civilians and Billy Hamilton went way below estimate.

There were four lots of cabinets, all but two being Horners, which sold on the second day.
#432 that featured 21 near mint mounted non HOFers went for $3800. The house didn't place an estimate on this lot.

#433 were described as damaged or altered cabinets (pin holes, painted up).
there were 20 non HOFers that went for $1100. That was way below the estimate.

#434 had five cabinets, with three being Horners. They were HOFers that were inked up of McGinnity, Waddell and Speaker. They sold for $1000, which was in the middle of the estimate.

#435 consisted of 18 unmounted Horners, all non-HOFers and sold for $1100, which was within the low end of the estimate.

One bidder picked up most of the Saturday Horner lots.

Yeah, lemmie do that one over, okay?

RMY has sold a number of Horners. He could fill you in on the prices realized.
lumberjack

[bgar3]

Yes, Kris, that is a great one. I think there was a lot that had a number of diffent players with the magazine also.