Hof

[conor912]

I don’t know what I’m more surprised by, Walker getting in or the fact that it’s been 5 years since Jeter retired. Where that half a decade went, I have no idea.

[mattsey9]

Originally Posted by conor912

I don’t know what I’m more surprised by, Walker getting in or the fact that it’s been 5 years since Jeter retired. Where that half a decade went, I have no idea.

Delighted for Walker. Well deserved.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by conor912

I don’t know what I’m more surprised by, Walker getting in or the fact that it’s been 5 years since Jeter retired. Where that half a decade went, I have no idea.

i actually feel like jeter has been gone for 10 years..

[Stampsfan]

So happy to see Walker get in. A full five tool player.
I once saw him throw out Tony Fernandez from right field on a ground out.

Canada is happy, and so are us Expos fans. Congrats.

[triwak]

Got 'em!! (Including the Frick Award winner).

(Sorry for the sideways pics. No idea why that happened)?

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by conor912

I don’t know what I’m more surprised by, Walker getting in or the fact that it’s been 5 years since Jeter retired. Where that half a decade went, I have no idea.

Yeah, and it means that Walker has been retired for 15 years now... that seems even crazier to me!

[CMIZ5290]

How in the Hell is Dale Murphy not in? Back to back MVP's for a shitty Braves team.....How many back to back MVPs in the N.L. have there been anyway? Mike Schmidt? Bonds...

[bmattioli]

2,160 career hits and 383 HR's gets you in now for a outfielder/1st baseman..

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by bmattioli

2,160 career hits and 383 HR's gets you in now for a outfielder/1st baseman..

Unless you have 2,490 hits and 493 HRs and your name is Fred McGriff.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

How in the Hell is Dale Murphy not in? Back to back MVP's for a shitty Braves team.....How many back to back MVPs in the N.L. have there been anyway? Mike Schmidt? Bonds...

His run as a top player was way too short. And he was washed up at 32.

[insidethewrapper]

Walker 76.6% after 10 years
Jeter. 99.7% in first year

Walker Bave.313 OBP .400 SLG .565 OPS .965 War (baseball Ref 72.7)
Jeter Bave.310 OBP .377 SLG .440 OPS .817 War (baseball Red 72.4 )

[jimmer77]

Walker is not a HOF'er, good player but that's not what the intention of the HOF is. If he is in then guys like Mattingly, McGriff and if really look at the overall #'s Paul Konerko was "better".

[riggs336]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

How in the Hell is Dale Murphy not in? Back to back MVP's for a shitty Braves team.....How many back to back MVPs in the N.L. have there been anyway? Mike Schmidt? Bonds...

Banks, Morgan, Pujols.

[sreader3]

I suppose Larry Walker got to Cooperstown because of advanced stats. He had a high career WAR (72.7) due in part to a very high career on-base percentage (.400). Mattingly, McGriff and Murphy pale in terms of career WAR and OBP.

Not saying advanced stats should control. It's the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Stats. Maybe Mattingly, Murphy, Gil Hodges and Steve Garvey should be in instead.

The focus on advanced stats may help Bill Dahlen become the next prewar Hall of Famer. Look for demand for his tough T206 subjects to spike if that happens.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by sreader3

I suppose Larry Walker got to Cooperstown because of advanced stats. He had a high career WAR (72.7) due in part to a very high career on-base percentage (.400). Mattingly, McGriff and Murphy pale in terms of career WAR and OBP.

Not saying advanced stats should control. It's the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Stats. Maybe Mattingly, Murphy, Gil Hodges and Steve Garvey should be in instead.

The focus on advanced stats may help Bill Dahlen become the next prewar Hall of Famer. Look for demand for his tough T206 subjects to spike if that happens.

Dahlen should have been elected years ago, irrespective of whether or not you agree with advanced stats. He was a no-brainer 60+ years ago. Somehow he got lost in the HOF vote. That needs to be fixed, even if it is way after the fact.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Dahlen should have been elected years ago, irrespective of whether or not you agree with advanced stats. He was a no-brainer 60+ years ago. Somehow he got lost in the HOF vote. That needs to be fixed, even if it is way after the fact.

Why? .272 BA 2461 hits. Led league in RBI once with 80. Never led in any other offensive stat.

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by rats60

Why? .272 BA 2461 hits. Led league in RBI once with 80. Never led in any other offensive stat.

28.5 career defensive WAR as a shortstop. (I have no idea how they calculate dWAR in the pre-video era).

[RCMcKenzie]

Whatever you guys think about the WAR stat for position players, go to baseball-reference and check out the top 100 WAR list for position players. For the most part, it's a "who's who" of the greatest players ever. Dahlen is ranked 46th.

The names that don't belong in the top 100 greatest of all time, but appear on the top 100 WAR list to me, are Chipper Jones #32, Bobby Grich #61, Buddy Bell #91, and Chase Utley #96. I still have no problem with those guys as HOF'ers. I like how the NBA does it. Let 'em all in...Maris, Mattingly, Colovito, Murphy, Parker, etc...

I hope Dahlen makes it. I will be stocking up on his cards, not to sell, just for fun...Rob

[riggs336]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Whatever you guys think about the WAR stat for position players, go to baseball-reference and check out the top 100 WAR list for position players. For the most part, it's a "who's who" of the greatest players ever. Dahlen is ranked 46th.

The names that don't belong in the top 100 greatest of all time, but appear on the top 100 WAR list to me, are Chipper Jones #32, Bobby Grich #61, Buddy Bell #91, and Chase Utley #96. I still have no problem with those guys as HOF'ers. I like how the NBA does it. Let 'em all in...Maris, Mattingly, Colovito, Murphy, Parker, etc...

I hope Dahlen makes it. I will be stocking up on his cards, not to sell, just for fun...Rob

And if you narrow the career WAR list to just shortstops, Dahlen is seventh all time. There are five HOFers and Arod ahead of him and eighteen HOF shortstops with lesser WAR stats.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by sreader3

28.5 career defensive WAR as a shortstop. (I have no idea how they calculate dWAR in the pre-video era).

How would voters 60 years ago know that? How reliable are those numbers? I get that he had a lot of assists and putouts, but how much of that is a product of his pitchers low strike out totals vs. actually creating outs with defense? Defensive metrics are pretty unreliable from the prewar era because of incomplete data. If he was truly as good defensively as his dWAR, then why did he only get votes in 2 Hof elections and only 1 vote each time? I get that he is more deserving than Tommy McCarthy and others, but his numbers, other than WAR, don't scream Hofer.

[GeoPoto]

Originally Posted by rats60

but his numbers, other than WAR, don't scream Hofer.

He had less than 2,500 hits and a career BA of .272.
but
He had over 3,500 hits plus walks and a career OBP of .358.
He scored 1,590 runs (just ahead of George Brett and Jim Thome) and had 660 extra-base hits, when home runs were long triples.
His first eight years (with CHC in NL) his team played 1,115 games, an average of less than 140 games/yr. (He played in 987.)
I think he makes it on offense. The fact that he held down SS in that era says as much about his defensive value as, an admittedly, vague dWAR.

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

How in the Hell is Dale Murphy not in? Back to back MVP's for a shitty Braves team....

The Braves weren't shitty when Murphy won those MVPs. They won the NL West in 1982 and finished three games behind the Dodgers in 1983.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

How in the Hell is Dale Murphy not in? Back to back MVP's for a shitty Braves team.....How many back to back MVPs in the N.L. have there been anyway? Mike Schmidt? Bonds...

I think a lot of it has to do with Skip Caray's horrible announcing voice, and the fact that every Braves game was televised on TBS. I honestly cannot think about Murphy without hearing that voice.

Seriously though, I agree that Murphy (and Hodges) are the two "outsiders" who most belong in the Hall.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

He had less than 2,500 hits and a career BA of .272.
but
He had over 3,500 hits plus walks and a career OBP of .358.
He scored 1,590 runs (just ahead of George Brett and Jim Thome) and had 660 extra-base hits, when home runs were long triples.
His first eight years (with CHC in NL) his team played 1,115 games, an average of less than 140 games/yr. (He played in 987.)
I think he makes it on offense. The fact that he held down SS in that era says as much about his defensive value as, an admittedly, vague dWAR.

I'm sorry but .272 .358 .382 .740 OPS+110 isn't a Hofer.
However .318 .406 .453 .859 OPS+136 is.
Yet because of dWAR the 1st is supposed to be worth 75.4 and the 2nd only 72.9. You have to ask yourself what is going on? I don't buy that Tinker was the 4th best defensive shortstop, Wallace 8th and Dahlen 9th. I think they are seriously over valued due to WAR because of a lack of data.

Omar Vizquel had 3905 hits plus walks, he doesn't scream Hofer either. He didn't score as many runs, but that is dependent on having teammates to drive you in. Counting stats only go so far.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I think a lot of it has to do with Skip Caray's horrible announcing voice, and the fact that every Braves game was televised on TBS. I honestly cannot think about Murphy without hearing that voice.

Seriously though, I agree that Murphy (and Hodges) are the two "outsiders" who most belong in the Hall.

I would list the outsiders who belong in the Hall to be:

Dick Allen
Bob Johnson
Bill Dahlen
Lou Whitaker
Bobby Grich
Curt Schilling
Rick Reuschel
Kevin Brown


I would also make a strong case for:

Dwight Evans
Graig Nettles
Luis Tiant
David Cone
Bret Saberhagen
Dave Stieb
Reggie Smith
Buddy Bell
Andruw Jones

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by sreader3

I suppose Larry Walker got to Cooperstown because of advanced stats. He had a high career WAR (72.7) due in part to a very high career on-base percentage (.400). Mattingly, McGriff and Murphy pale in terms of career WAR and OBP.

Not saying advanced stats should control. It's the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Stats. Maybe Mattingly, Murphy, Gil Hodges and Steve Garvey should be in instead.

The focus on advanced stats may help Bill Dahlen become the next prewar Hall of Famer. Look for demand for his tough T206 subjects to spike if that happens.

Scot, I used to agree with you about Dahlen, but I now think that ship has sailed....Having said that, even if somehow he got in, how in the World could his Brooklyn card go any higher? It is already miles and miles ahead of most HOFers.....

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by trdcrdkid

The Braves weren't shitty when Murphy won those MVPs. They won the NL West in 1982 and finished three games behind the Dodgers in 1983.

And yet they didn't even win 90 games either season....This is my point exactly. Without Murphy, this team wouldn't have won 70 games. I wonder what the team records are for players that have won back to back MVPs? I bet they are better than Murphy's.....

[packs]

I think the only pre-war player really on the outside looking in is Harry Stovey. Can't think of any good reasons why he wouldn't be in except some bias against the AA, which someone in 2020 could not realistically have.

[nat]

He doesn't meet the 10 year requirement, but I'm partial to Ross Barnes for dominating the early days of professional ball.

But the hall has made it clear (by having the older committees meet less frequently) that they don't care much about inducting players who are long dead. Dahlen may yet make it (of the long dead he probably has the best chance), but someone like Dick Allen probably has better odds.

[GeoPoto]

Originally Posted by packs

I think the only pre-war player really on the outside looking in is Harry Stovey. Can't think of any good reasons why he wouldn't be in except some bias against the AA, which someone in 2020 could not realistically have.

Career OBP of .361 and OPS+ of 144 are excellent. 509 SB in 9 seasons. His 12 year-peak numbers are good enough. But that is really all he played. The volume might not be enough.

[Chris-Counts]

As long as Bud Selig is in, and Minnie Minoso is out, it's hard for me to take the Hall of Fame seriously, although I'm generally happy when any player gets in. The roster of inductees is simply too flawed after too many years of monkey business, and it isn't an accurate measure of who the greatest players ever were. As far as I'm concerned, the hall of fame has a serious credibility issue. So many of the voters have little clue about the game's history or comparative statistical analysis, which are necessary to accurately evaluate players. The numbers don't lie, but they require a long, hard look. It boggles my mind that so many collectors base their opinions about players on whether or not they a have a plaque in Cooperstown.

[packs]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

Career OBP of .361 and OPS+ of 144 are excellent. 509 SB in 9 seasons. His 12 year-peak numbers are good enough. But that is really all he played. The volume might not be enough.

Stats are only part of the story. He played the game like no one else around him. Power, speed, the way he ran the bases. Stovey was the prototype of the five tool player before it existed.

[CurtisFlood]

Walker was a great baserunner, fielder, had a rocket for an arm, and his offense speaks for itself.

I never really appreciated him till he moved to St. Louis late in his career. Watching him every day made me wish they had picked him up in 1991.

[CurtisFlood]

Walker was a great baserunner, fielder, had a rocket for an arm, and his offense speaks for itself.

I never really appreciated him till he moved to St. Louis late in his career. Watching him every day made me wish they had picked him up in 1991.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by CurtisFlood

Walker was a great baserunner, fielder, had a rocket for an arm, and his offense speaks for itself.

I never really appreciated him till he moved to St. Louis late in his career. Watching him every day made me wish they had picked him up in 1991.

Larry Walker vs. Dale Murphy?? Really??

[PowderedH2O]

I liked Murphy a lot, but Walker was better and played at a high level for longer than Murphy. There are dozens of HOFers that don't measure up to Larry Walker. Now, Murphy vs guys like Baines, Lindstrom, etc... well, that I don't get.Compared to those guys Murphy is Babe Ruth. Heck, Bob Johnson should be in the HOF twice before Fred Lindstrom.

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

And yet they didn't even win 90 games either season....This is my point exactly. Without Murphy, this team wouldn't have won 70 games. I wonder what the team records are for players that have won back to back MVPs? I bet they are better than Murphy's.....

Ernie Banks won back to back MVPs for Cubs teams that had losing records both years. In fact, I think Banks was the first player to be MVP for a losing team.

[Leon]

+1 all the way arouind

Originally Posted by Chris Counts

As long as Bud Selig is in, and Minnie Minoso is out, it's hard for me to take the Hall of Fame seriously, although I'm generally happy when any player gets in. The roster of inductees is simply too flawed after too many years of monkey business, and it isn't an accurate measure of who the greatest players ever were. As far as I'm concerned, the hall of fame has a serious credibility issue. So many of the voters have little clue about the game's history or comparative statistical analysis, which are necessary to accurately evaluate players. The numbers don't lie, but they require a long, hard look. It boggles my mind that so many collectors base their opinions about players on whether or not they a have a plaque in Cooperstown.

[Huck]

Originally Posted by jimmer77

Walker is not a HOF'er, good player but that's not what the intention of the HOF is. If he is in then guys like Mattingly, McGriff and if really look at the overall #'s Paul Konerko was "better".

Well over a decade ago, a member on another board said "It is not the hall of of the greatest players, it is the hall of the very good". I am okay with that and Murphy should be there.

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Scot, I used to agree with you about Dahlen, but I now think that ship has sailed....Having said that, even if somehow he got in, how in the World could his Brooklyn card go any higher? It is already miles and miles ahead of most HOFers.....

Kevin, I think that a Hall of Fame nod could give Dahlen Boston a significant price bump; I agree maybe less so for Brooklyn. The subjects are of similar difficulty but Brooklyn has historically commanded a higher price. Hence more upside for the Boston variation, which could achieve an Evers Blue Sky or Tinker Portrait-like premium if Dahlen is inducted. Scot

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by mattsey9

Delighted for Walker. Well deserved.

he'll be hurt by the July induction ceremony, guaranteed.

[ejharrington]

I just booked my hotel in Cooperstown for 2021 when Schilling finally gets his deserved place among the immortals.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Chris Counts

As long as Bud Selig is in, and Minnie Minoso is out, it's hard for me to take the Hall of Fame seriously, although I'm generally happy when any player gets in. The roster of inductees is simply too flawed after too many years of monkey business, and it isn't an accurate measure of who the greatest players ever were. As far as I'm concerned, the hall of fame has a serious credibility issue. So many of the voters have little clue about the game's history or comparative statistical analysis, which are necessary to accurately evaluate players. The numbers don't lie, but they require a long, hard look. It boggles my mind that so many collectors base their opinions about players on whether or not they a have a plaque in Cooperstown.

Hard to imagine we can’t come up with some sort of advanced algorithm where we set a minimum bar, plug all a player’s stats in, and out pops a yay or nay. At this point you’d have to make the bar equal to the worst player in, but that’s ok. Special consideration would be given to non-stat facts (PEDs, rings, etc).

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by conor912

I don’t know what I’m more surprised by, Walker getting in or the fact that it’s been 5 years since Jeter retired. Where that half a decade went, I have no idea.

Yeah, my son went from middle school to a freshman in college. Were did it go?

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by conor912

Hard to imagine we can’t come up with some sort of advanced algorithm where we set a minimum bar, plug all a player’s stats in, and out pops a yay or nay. At this point you’d have to make the bar equal to the worst player in, but that’s ok. Special consideration would be given to non-stat facts (PEDs, rings, etc).

It's not the Hall of Stats. Jeter had so much Fame that he absolutely should be in the HOF. I'm not sure Walker was nearly as famous. Not saying he doesn't deserve it, just that his fame doesn't stack up to Jeter's at all.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

I just booked my hotel in Cooperstown for 2021 when Schilling finally gets his deserved place among the immortals.

Ha! I wouldn't hold your breath if I was you......

[conor912]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

It's not the Hall of Stats. Jeter had so much Fame that he absolutely should be in the HOF. I'm not sure Walker was nearly as famous. Not saying he doesn't deserve it, just that his fame doesn't stack up to Jeter's at all.

Ok, if it's about fame then then go outside right now and ask 10 random people which name sounds more familiar, Jose Canseco or Harold Baines.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by conor912

Ok, if it's about fame then then go outside right now and ask 10 random people which name sounds more familiar, Jose Canseco or Harold Baines.

I never said they haven't made mistakes or that everyone that is in the Hall is more famous than anyone who isn't in, just that stats aren't all it's about. Ask 10 people if they've heard of Harold Baines or Mike Kelly.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

I never said they haven't made mistakes or that everyone that is in the Hall is more famous than anyone who isn't in, just that stats aren't all it's about. Ask 10 people if they've heard of Harold Baines or Mike Kelly.

I'm not saying fame wouldn't be a special consideration, but a standard statistical baseline as a starting point would at least weed out a bunch of borderline guys. It could instantly whittle the ballot from 30 to a half dozen and would allow all the time and energy go into the argument above and beyond the statistically deserving.....just seems like an easy fix, is all.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by conor912

I'm not saying fame wouldn't be a special consideration, but a standard statistical baseline as a starting point would at least weed out a bunch of borderline guys. It could instantly whittle the ballot from 30 to a half dozen and would allow all the time and energy go into the argument above and beyond the statistically deserving.....just seems like an easy fix, is all.

I hear ya Conor. It just sounded like you were saying all stats, then spit out a yay or nay for inclusion. And I think it's more about fame than stats. Or at least should be. IMO.