T206 Bill Sweeney Missing Red Ink - Won't Grade?

[TobaccoKing4]

Does anyone know why this card isn't being graded anymore? I contacted PSA and SGC but they wouldn't really tell me why they stop grading this card.

Thanks for any insight.

-TK

[Jobu]

I believe they both stopped grading all missing red cards because they can't reliably tell why the red is missing (options: the red layer really wasn't printed or it was printed and is now missing due to sun/chemicals/glue).

[TobaccoKing4]

Originally Posted by Jobu

I believe they both stopped grading all missing red cards because they can't reliably tell why the red is missing (options: the red layer really wasn't printed or it was printed and is now missing due to sun/chemicals/glue).

Interesting, thanks for the info. Hopefully testing abilities will expand in the next couple of years and they'll be able to start grading these again.

[Leon]

You would think TPG's could tell if a card is faded or missing ink with whatever technology they use today. Even if the technology is nothing more than a 10x-50x loupe and their knowledge.

Originally Posted by TobaccoKing4

Interesting, thanks for the info. Hopefully testing abilities will expand in the next couple of years and they'll be able to start grading these again.

[mrvster]

missing magentas......I owed at least a dozen or so.....even the Sweeney...

they are extremely tough to differentiate.....

my theory on a lot of them are legit, some are faded.....unfortunately, they have drummed up so much uncertainty, that everyone has become more "skittish" to identify one.....

the verdict is still out on them

[drcy]

Red printing ink is the most prone to fading, but rarely to nothing.

[Leon]

TPG are also more wary, nowadays, of grading cards that have stamped backs (and rightfully so)....Most are good but many have been reprinted/faked.

Originally Posted by mrvster

missing magentas......I owed at least a dozen or so.....even the Sweeney...

they are extremely tough to differentiate.....

my theory on a lot of them are legit, some are faded.....unfortunately, they have drummed up so much uncertainty, that everyone has become more "skittish" to identify one.....

the verdict is still out on them

[steve B]

Missing colors can be difficult to figure out.

Most of the real ones are missing more than one color.
I bought a couple cards from a group that had been framed and hung in a barbershop for about 40 years. Lots of them looked like missing red. The two I got are very hard to tell whether it's fading or the red missing. One has even gloss, another has less where the red was.
SGC did grade a few of them as missing colors, and also stopped soon after the source and fading was discussed here. (Maybe coincidence?)

I've done a bit of checking into if some science equipment could tell, but haven't found much that's definite. The machines are also rather expensive.

Steve B

[TobaccoKing4]

Here are pictures of the card. Some people had asked me to show it so here it is:

[Pat R]

I didn't want to get of topic in the other thread so I'll post my
opinion here.

I don't think any of the Sweeney's are missing red ink all of the ones
that I've seen have evidence of scrapbook removal or light exposure.

Some like yours were a more successful soak but the evidence of a
soak is still there.

I picked up this Dubuc out of curiosity because it was cheap, it had
a pretty clean back and the red was faded. As soon as I had it in hand
I could tell it had been soaked.

Dubuc.jpgDubuc Back.jpg
Dubuc Side Veiw 2.jpg Dubuc Side Veiw.jpg

If you're scanning a card and it doesn't lay flat on the scanner bed you
can bet it has been soaked at some point even some of the worst beaters
will lay flat if they haven't been soaked.


It's not just the Sweeney's. Here are some of the "missing ink" T206's
on ebay, all of the ones missing red in the lettering have scrapbook or light exposure evidence.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odk...g+ink&_sacat=0

[steve B]

The Dessau cards are probably actually missing red. But not by accident. There's a group of 350's that I've only very marginally studied where there's a deliberate change to the bright red. Dygert is the most obvious, he either looks like he's got lipstick or he doesn't.

These are a mixed group, and I need to do better scans. The top two are faded, from a big group that was on Ebay that had 40 years or so of light exposure.
The Huggins is one from another group that looks really washed out, I haven't seen many, and they're certainly odd.
The Beck is missing pink, and gray.

A second missing color is somewhat typical for cards that are missing a color and don't show evidence of soaking or being pinned up somewhere.

That being said, I actually tried to fade or create an offset transfer from a soaked card a few years ago, and lets just say that plain water plus a lot of pressure - clamped between wood blocks in a vise for a week or so did neither.

[steve B]

LOL, forgot the picture....

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by steve B

The Dessau cards are probably actually missing red. But not by accident. There's a group of 350's that I've only very marginally studied where there's a deliberate change to the bright red. Dygert is the most obvious, he either looks like he's got lipstick or he doesn't.

These are a mixed group, and I need to do better scans. The top two are faded, from a big group that was on Ebay that had 40 years or so of light exposure.
The Huggins is one from another group that looks really washed out, I haven't seen many, and they're certainly odd.
The Beck is missing pink, and gray.

A second missing color is somewhat typical for cards that are missing a color and don't show evidence of soaking or being pinned up somewhere.

That being said, I actually tried to fade or create an offset transfer from a soaked card a few years ago, and lets just say that plain water plus a lot of pressure - clamped between wood blocks in a vise for a week or so did neither.

My post was in reference to cards that are similar to the Sweeney. I should have used better wording in my post.

Here's the back scan of the Sweeney that's not provided by the one seller.
Sweeney missing ink.jpg

[Luke]

I wrote an article about this a little while back. Very few of the "missing red" cards were actually printed without red ink. The Sweeney looks faded and I would bet the back shows signs of adhesive residue and/or paper loss.

http://www.thatt206life.com/2016/12/...ed-t206-cards/

[TobaccoKing4]

Originally Posted by Luke

I wrote an article about this a little while back. Very few of the "missing red" cards were actually printed without red ink. The Sweeney looks faded and I would bet the back shows signs of adhesive residue and/or paper loss.

http://www.thatt206life.com/2016/12/...ed-t206-cards/

There is a scan of the back on page one. Nothing is standing out to me indicating that it was adhered to anything but then again I'm not the most advanced collector. The thing with with this card is that it does have the light pinkish primer coat on it where the red was mean't to be put. I'd think that if the red was missing due to fading that the pink coat would have also faded.

[Luke]

Oh, I missed it, my bad. The back looks better than most of these, but there's some staining/toning and the bottom and top right corners have something going on. Not sure but looks like spots where the card was adhered to something at some point. I can't be sure of anything from the scans but I'd be very skeptical of any "missing red" that also has back problems.

[Pat R]

I hope you don't think I'm picking on your card Harrison because I'm
not I just think potential buyers should know the facts about some
of the "missing color" cards.

Some of them were cataloged and graded before there was evidence
that most of these are post production fading and I think some sellers
know this and are taking advantage of buyers.

It's up to the buyer to decide but I think they should know about
the possibility that it might just be faded instead of missing color.
Personally I wouldn't pay a premium for any of them even one
with a clean back.

Here's a card that a member soaked and there is no way that anyone
could tell from a scan that it was soaked.
Chris B Soak.jpg

I think it's a combination of certain types of adhesives and some other factor
like sunlight or heat that causes the fading.

Adhesives can have an effect on all types of materials. If your installing
black or green marble your supposed to use an epoxy to set them instead
of a thin set mortar or ceramic tile adhesive. The reason for this is both the
thin set and tile adhesive are water base and if you use them to install the
marble it can cause the marble to warp and turn the corners up.
Adhesive has a different effect on white marble. You have to use a white
thin set instead of grey or ceramic tile adhesive if you use either of those
two the trowel notches show through the front of the marble.

[RCMcKenzie]

I dunno, I still think the Sweeney's with missing red ink are kinda cool...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I dunno, I still think the Sweeney's with missing red ink are kinda cool...

+1 and to me, probably a variation.