FYI: New Alteration Detection Methods

[drcy]

Actually, I left the art and artifacts authentication area a while ago-- work in cognitive science now--, am not an active collector, but the current issue has intrigued me.

I've decided to look into scientific ways to identify and scientifically document alterations, including full spectrum light scans to identify many alterations of cards already in holders (as removing the card from a holder is an issue, including concerning voiding the guarantee). I have an idea for the firsts tests, and I'll consider this my pet project.

I don't plan on "starting a company"-- that always seems to be an angle in this hobby--, but, I hope, have techniques that can be used by others to assess cards-- I hope including while they are still in holders. It would be great if there are methods for collectors to examine their own holder cards, and, of course and even better, raw cards, and methods to test the accuracy and quality control of graders.

I also thing advanced scanning systems (not using normal visible light) will not only do well at identifying alterations, but can create images that can be used for others to example, show that the card has been examined thusly, and help document for posterity the card. I tend to see advanced scanning as the wave of the future, and, as the cards has been scanned and the scans readily available, the cards won't even have to be professionally holdered. In art and artifacts, and elsewhere, advanced imaging has been used as security 'marking,' akin to DNA marking.

Further, authentication of cards can be done via looking at really good scans (magnified, large), which means people can have the image of their card scanned then send the images rather than the card itself for authentication. People sometimes send me microscopic images via email so I can identify the printing, etc. And, also, an image is availble for many people in different places to examine-- including of grade.

But I'll start by seeing what alterations can be identified-- as documented as evidence-- using my test systems.

Authenticating Art and Artifacts: An Introduction to Methods

[steve B]

I'll be giving that a good read!

If you were local, I'd like to get together for a long talk, I've read a few cognitive articles, and run into some really interesting firsthand examples of how the identical thing is perceived or not by different people.

I think the high resolution scans are the key, At decent magnification the actual fiber structure of the cardboard can be seen, and that's as good as a fingerprint, maybe even a bit better. That would be a more advanced version of what the blowout guy does in finding unique markers on the reverse, which are mostly darker fibers.
I think a computer could spot stuff like that very easily, and that might be one path to knowing if a card had been seen before and what it looked like then.

The downside is the massive database required. Although I have talked about it with my wife who is in software and she didn't see that as a problem, but did see developing the database as a really major task.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Yeah even if it wasn't perfect at detection, a near-microscopic record for FUTURE comparisons would be awesome. Down the road it could be concrete evidence of goofiness on par with the individually numbered modern inserts in the current scandal.

[drcy]

If anyone's interested, the peer-reviewed university textbooks in the area where I work now.

Books

But, as anyone who follows my posts on this board, I still have an interest in baseball cards, authenticiy, am a member of SABR's baseball card research committee (though haven't written anything for them in over a year-- but maybe this will be a subject for future contributions), and still give advice photograph advice, including to auction houses, when asked.

[Cmount76]

Thanks for the contributions, David.

I just purchased the book and am looking forward to the read!!!

[drcy]

Originally Posted by steve B

I'll be giving that a good read!

If you were local, I'd like to get together for a long talk, I've read a few cognitive articles, and run into some really interesting firsthand examples of how the identical thing is perceived or not by different people.

I think the high resolution scans are the key, At decent magnification the actual fiber structure of the cardboard can be seen, and that's as good as a fingerprint, maybe even a bit better. That would be a more advanced version of what the blowout guy does in finding unique markers on the reverse, which are mostly darker fibers.
I think a computer could spot stuff like that very easily, and that might be one path to knowing if a card had been seen before and what it looked like then.

The downside is the massive database required. Although I have talked about it with my wife who is in software and she didn't see that as a problem, but did see developing the database as a really major task.

Yes, I thought of you. I know I can authenticate cards from microscoic images that are sent to me via email.

Also,these scans will be UV to IR, so it will show advanced stuff.

But I'll be doing my testing to see how it works. I know the old saying, don't count the hourse before the card before the chickens have hatched.

Really, the scanning is examining the cards under different forms of light, but with the simultaneous ability to take a digital photograph for documentation.

[RCMcKenzie]

Will you be grading all the Yao Ming and Luis Robert cards? Or is this just for pre-war issues? I saw a t206 Jimmy Williams Sov 150 in a 4.5 holder yesterday that I thought was a great card. It was centered perfectly with acceptable flaws that gave it just the right look for a high grade t206. So many t206 in 6 and above holders have obvious flaws, set aside card doctors. They go for tons of money, they are unaltered and they are deeply flawed. Rob

[drcy]

I will not be doing any grading or become a grading or authenticating company. Just looking into the technology and methods.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

So I've thought about this a lot and I think the way you would see change the quickest is, in a loose sense, akin to how PSA got started (Bear with me!)

Some multi-millionaire who has a complete T206 set gets the entire set microscopically examined and recorded, replacing any with issues. He then does a set break with, let's say, REA. The winner not only gets the cards (in some form of slab) but the digital images of the scans and whatever other pertinent information that is generated.

I think the press would be huge and the 800lb gorillas who have been going after PSA 8's would trample each other to get the first scientifically examined unaltered T206 cards.

Instead of just the Wagner this new company would have a complete set going up for auction with a great auction house and set the collecting world on it's ear.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

So I've thought about this a lot and I think the way you would see change the quickest is, in a loose sense, akin to how PSA got started (Bear with me!)

Some multi-millionaire who has a complete T206 set gets the entire set microscopically examined and recorded, replacing any with issues. He then does a set break with, let's say, REA. The winner not only gets the cards (in some form of slab) but the digital images of the scans and whatever other pertinent information that is generated.

I think the press would be huge and the 800lb gorillas who have been going after PSA 8's would trample each other to get the first scientifically examined unaltered T206 cards.

Instead of just the Wagner this new company would have a complete set going up for auction with a great auction house and set the collecting world on it's ear.

that's not a bad idea?

[drcy]

There are the more formal raw card examinations, but part of this came to me when people were saying many collectors won't want to have their cards remvoved from the PSA holders, and PSA won't honor a guarantee for a card that has been removed-- which puts the collector in a conundrum.

Certainly, a card can't be fully and wholly examined when it's still in a holder, but I thought it would be useful for techniques that can do an unwhole but productive double check with the card still in the holder. And I know various forms of forensic light can go through the holders.

Though scanning/authenticting/documenting raw cards can of course also be done.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by drcy

Further, authentication of cards can be done via looking at really good scans (magnified, large), which means people can have the image of their card scanned then send the images rather than the card itself for authentication. People sometimes send me microscopic images via email so I can identify the printing, etc. And, also, an image is availble for many people in different places to examine-- including of grade.

I agree that advanced scans would eliminate a lot of the problems that we've all been reading about as of lately. Advanced scans would also give the collector a very good idea as to what kind of card he is looking at and make a lot of the flaws more visible. However, would advanced scans be able to spot certain alterations, such as pressing for example? Also, how can we see the thickness of a card? I always like to examine the thickness because I can sometimes tell if somebody pressed down the corners and edges.

Is there any special software required in order to view these advanced scans or can I just use Windows Photo Viewer? If I can use WPV, then can I PM you my email address? I would like to see how an advanced scan looks like.

Thanks

[drcy]

Yes, there are always multiple ways to look at items, with scans being one, though such scanning would very advanced. Though the scans would be looking at the cards in many ways-- microscopic, UV, IR, other.

Ultraviolet and IR viewers and cameras translate the uv or ir light to a human visible form, so anyone could view the images as you view any digital image.

I've long used microscopy (microscope) in authentication. I then bought a digital microscope that took digital pictures of what I was seeing. Plugged into my laptop. Can view, send, share and post the microscopic images just as with any digital image. The same would be with IR and UV photos.

In fact, infrared photography is a popular form of art and hobby photography. The cameras they use are usually normal digital cameras where the insides have been modified to record infrared light. Cameras normas normally have IR blocking filters, and in the modified cameras they are removed.

In art authentication and conservation, IR has long been used because it looks at things in a way that can be seen by human eyes, often being able to identify otherwise invisible foreign material, and because IR can penetrate surface materials like X-rays. It's commonly used in authenticating paintings and reading heavily faded ancient documents.

Duly note that there are forms of light to view cards at. IR, UV and visible light are just the standard ones. There are spectrometers used in authentication and dating that can identify the exact chemicals and compounds in materials.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by drcy

Yes, I thought of you. I know I can authenticate cards from microscoic images that are sent to me via email.

Also,these scans will be UV to IR, so it will show advanced stuff.

But I'll be doing my testing to see how it works. I know the old saying, don't count the hourse before the card before the chickens have hatched.

Really, the scanning is examining the cards under different forms of light, but with the simultaneous ability to take a digital photograph for documentation.

I don't have a machine that can do that, and I hear they can be pretty expensive...

I did just recently get a very high powered blacklight and will probably use it to take some pics soon. I may wait to pick up a set of red safety glasses.

I may also see about getting a filter to do IR with the phone camera.

I think a solid method of detecting would be a really useful thing for anyone that wanted to use it.

[steve B]

Come to think of it. would there be interest in a device that would allow inspection with at least normal and UV light from different angles? (Raking light, which is useful for seeing gloss and any ink with some decent dimensionality to it )

I built a prototype of a device very similar a few years ago, and the guy I did it for is thinking of revisiting that device. I'm probably going to be buying materials and the LEDs to light it in the next month or two and making both wouldn't be hard.