Why are these guys still around?

[Throttlesteer]

I apologize for yet another thread about this scandal. But as I read the names of the folks involved, many of them seemed familiar from my past life on Net54. I went and did a little digging and these same bad actors are the ones that were discussed back in the early 2000s. If high-profile card doctoring has been going on with the same well-known group of people, why hasn't anything been done in nearly 20 years?

i realize it's hard to prove, but I can't believe they've managed to fly under the criminal justice radar for so long. No wonder they've become so bold and pervasive. It's beyond disgusting.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer

I apologize for yet another thread about this scandal. But as I read the names of the folks involved, many of them seemed familiar from my past life on Net54. I went and did a little digging and these same bad actors are the ones that were discussed back in the early 2000s. If high-profile card doctoring has been going on with the same well-known group of people, why hasn't anything been done in nearly 20 years?

i realize it's hard to prove, but I can't believe they've managed to fly under the criminal justice radar for so long. No wonder they've become so bold and pervasive. It's beyond disgusting.

Dealers and auction houses either have been complicit or the honest ones, in large part, have just done nothing and enjoyed the price umbrella. The people protesting have mostly been shouted down. Law enforcement has, for reasons of its own, not viewed it as a priority at least in the past. It's the perfect storm.

[Snapolit1]

Law enforcement hasn't viewed it as a priority because there is no crime in breaking a card out of a case, rubbing bleach on it, tinkering with the edges, and maybe touching up a little color and then sending it on to PSA having the industry leading verifying company bless it and return it to you with a new grade, and you make no warranty about the grading or anything else in selling it to someone else.

Yes, I know we've had this discussion many times. . . . .

Sleazy practices don't always equate with illegal behavior.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Law enforcement hasn't viewed it as a priority because there is no crime in breaking a card out of a case, rubbing bleach on it, tinkering with the edges, and maybe touching up a little color and then sending it on to PSA having the industry leading verifying company bless it and return it to you with a new grade, and you make no warranty about the grading or anything else in selling it to someone else.

Yes, I know we've had this discussion many times. . . . .

Sleazy practices don't always equate with illegal behavior.

No, but fraud is illegal. I'm not getting dragged into this again. Read the Mastro indictment. Read the mail and wire fraud statutes and the textbook definitions of fraud including fraudulent concealment.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Law enforcement hasn't viewed it as a priority because there is no crime in breaking a card out of a case, rubbing bleach on it, tinkering with the edges, and maybe touching up a little color and then sending it on to PSA having the industry leading verifying company bless it and return it to you with a new grade, and you make no warranty about the grading or anything else in selling it to someone else.

Yes, I know we've had this discussion many times. . . . .

Sleazy practices don't always equate with illegal behavior.

Have you talked to law enforcement about this? I have. Are you sure you want to be on record as saying what they think?

[Republicaninmass]

What about fencing, for lack of a better term, altered cards? Knowingly or unknowingly. All these guys giving Brent a pass . Poor guy was targeted since he got the highest prices

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

What about fencing, for lack of a better term, altered cards? Knowingly or unknowingly. All these guys giving Brent a pass . Poor guy was targeted since he got the highest prices

Ted, it's just not worth arguing with some people. Have you seen actual proof with your own eyes the world is round? I haven't.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ted, it's just not worth arguing with some people. Have you seen actual proof with your own eyes the world is round? I haven't.

Youd have to be a space cadet to see/have seen proof

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Youd have to be a space cadet to see/have seen proof

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

There you go. And I guess you would need video evidence to believe Brent knew what Gary was doing. Emails and personal attestations of conversations, not to mention overwhelming evidence of a pattern of behavior, aren't enough.

[frankbmd]

If the earth isn’t round, then the sun is flat and the moon is in Hollywood.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

If the earth isn’t round, then the sun is flat and the moon is in Hollywood.

Dont forget...shall I say

Never forget

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[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Have you talked to law enforcement about this? I have. Are you sure you want to be on record as saying what they think?

Sure I'll go on record with my opinions about how the government may or may not view a certain situation legally. In fact I stand up in court and do it all the time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Sure I'll go on record with my opinions about how the government may or may not view a certain situation legally. In fact I stand up in court and do it all the time.

So now you're admitting you're just speculating. That will hold up real well against my actual conversation with the agent in charge of all this. Not to mention what the law actually is on this subject. Why it would come as a surprise to anyone, especially a lawyer, that defrauding people out of millions of dollars would be criminal, is beyond me at this point.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ted, it's just not worth arguing with some people. Have you seen actual proof with your own eyes the world is round? I haven't.

Actually, if you have seen a lunar eclipse, where the earth moves between the sun and moon, you have noticed the earth's shadow, seen on the moon, is circular.

So you HAVE seen actual proof the world is round, whether you knew it or not.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Actually, if you have seen a lunar eclipse, where the earth moves between the sun and moon, you have noticed the earth's shadow, seen on the moon, is circular.

So you HAVE seen actual proof the world is round, whether you knew it or not.

I can choose to ignore the proof though, can't I? And just keep repeating that the earth is flat?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I can choose to ignore the proof though, can't I? And just keep repeating that the earth is flat?

You can do what you want.

Just sayin' the statement that you haven't seen actual proof the world is round, is not true.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I can choose to ignore the proof though, can't I? And just keep repeating that the earth is flat?

Circles are flat, no?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

You can do what you want.

Just sayin' the statement that you haven't seen actual proof the world is round, is not true.

Well Mark if I were a reasonable person I would have to agree with you, of course. Just as I would have to reach the obvious conclusion on the overwhelming state of the evidence about PWCC.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So now you're admitting you're just speculating. That will hold up real well against my actual conversation with the agent in charge of all this. Not to mention what the law actually is on this subject. Why it would come as a surprise to anyone, especially a lawyer, that defrauding people out of millions of dollars would be criminal, is beyond me at this point.

Yes, I was speculating, and haven't spoken with anyone. And I haven't suggested otherwise.

And obviously you've spoken with folks involved.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Actually, if you have seen a lunar eclipse, where the earth moves between the sun and moon, you have noticed the earth's shadow, seen on the moon, is circular.

So you HAVE seen actual proof the world is round, whether you knew it or not.

could be round and flat. A disc. HA! :P

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ted, it's just not worth arguing with some people. Have you seen actual proof with your own eyes the world is round? I haven't.

The ancient Greeks proved it in about 250 BC using not much more than a couple sticks and tape measures and some math. And calculated the circumference within 10%. The experiment they did would actually be easier today.
http://theconversation.com/you-dont-...-science-88106

I'd offer to repeat what they did with you helping, but I think you may be geographically too close to me. Not to mention the potential cost of not billing a bit of time to put a stick in the ground and measure a shadow at a particular time. But at least then you could say you'd seen the evidence firsthand. (Ok, technically half the evidence, unless we swap cellphone videos)

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by Mark17

You can do what you want.

Just sayin' the statement that you haven't seen actual proof the world is round, is not true.

Actually, your statement is the one that isn't technically true. Peter never said he saw the shadows involved with an eclipse, did he? You're simply assuming he did.
See how easy this game is?

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No, but fraud is illegal. I'm not getting dragged into this again. Read the Mastro indictment. Read the mail and wire fraud statutes and the textbook definitions of fraud including fraudulent concealment.

I feel like we've had this conversation before and that you & I explained it pretty clearly previously. But my memory isn't so good sometimes. Maybe I just daydreamed that.

[Johnny630]

These guys are still around for a few of reason...
A. There is money to be made...scamming so they’re gonna try, it’s a thrill for them to one up you and make money.
B. TPG are not catching their crap....
C. No Consequences for their actions...
And worse but hell there is my very small nuts and bolts meat and potatoes simple reasons assessment of why they’re still around.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Tabe

I feel like we've had this conversation before and that you & I explained it pretty clearly previously. But my memory isn't so good sometimes. Maybe I just daydreamed that.

Yeah it's frustrating that there is still resistance to this very basic and obvious point.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Actually, your statement is the one that isn't technically true. Peter never said he saw the shadows involved with an eclipse, did he? You're simply assuming he did.

Based on this,

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Well Mark if I were a reasonable person I would have to agree with you, of course. Just as I would have to reach the obvious conclusion on the overwhelming state of the evidence about PWCC.

it would seem Peter HAS seen an eclipse, since he says he would have to agree with me (if he was a reasonable person.)

Originally Posted by JollyElm

See how easy this game is?

For some.