NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-12-2014, 02:55 PM
Robert_Lifson Robert_Lifson is offline
R.L. Americana, LLC
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 86
Default Dating of The Reccius Cigar Card of Honus Wagner

The Reccius Cigar Card of Honus Wagner has long been a bit of a mystery with reference to its precise dating. In the past, many collectors naturally thought it dated from between 1897 and 1899 because Wagner is pictured with Louisville. In more recent years, this has been questioned in part because of the new information that came to light in 2005 when REA auctioned a Honus Wagner Cigar Box featuring the same image as the Reccius card:

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/...n/2005/54.html

(The addendum for the Honus Wagner Cigar box description reads as follows:

Auction Description Modification: The title of this description refers to the Honus Wagner cigar box as dating from “Circa 1898.” This dating is in error. The box actually dates from between 1919 and 1926. It has long been misdated in the baseball world due to Wagner’s appearance on the box in a Louisville uniform. Until 1917 cigars were taxed by weight. In 1917 new law taxing them by selling price went into effect. That law was revised in 1919. In 1919, the small rectangle on the front of this box was created and required to appear on the box. The text in this rectangle reads as follows: "The cigars herein contained were manufactured to retail at nor more than 5¢ and are so tax paid." Any box that has this rectangle, or has a gold on blue revenue stamp, is post 1919. Robert Edward Auctions gives thanks to Mr. Tony Hyman, Curator of the National Cigar Museum, for his invaluable help in properly dating this cigar box.)

I recently received a very interesting email from great scholar and historian John Thorn (who is also Major League Baseball’s Official Historian) regarding the dating of the Reccius Wagner trade card. He knew I was very interested in this topic and sent me the following information, which I have cut and pasted below, with his permission, so that his research is not lost and is shared.

Thank you, John Thorn, for this valuable information that will be able to be reviewed and appreciated by card collectors (and thank you for all of your other countless great contributions to the hobby and baseball history as well!). Here’s the communication (and please note that the address of the Henry Reccius Cigar store is listed on the trade card as “2606 Elliot Avenue, Louisville, Kentucky”):

Thought you'd like to know this, regarding Wagner Reccius Cigar card, conventionally dated 1897-99 ...

john


Subject: Henry Reccius in Louisville City Directories
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 15:22:10 -0400


Verdict: Wagner card could have been issued no earlier than 1903 and no later than 1918. See below:

1878 cigarmaker, resides at 690 Grayson, near 22nd

1885: cigar manufacturer, works 28th, opp Magazine; John Reccius, baseballist, resides 2224 Grayson, as does Philip REccius, same line of work.

1891: Henry Reccius is at Elliott Avenue near intersection with 27th Street

1892: Cigarmaker at R.N. Ewell & Co., resides 23343 Green

1893: Cigarmaker at R.N. Ewell & Co., resides 23343 Green

1895: cigarmaker, C.C. Bickel & Co., resides 2216 Eddy

1897: cigarmaker, resides 2216 Eddy

1898: cigarmaker, resides 2216 Eddy

1899: cigarmaker, resides 2216 Eddy

1900: Henry is a cigar manufacturer in Louisville at 2803 West Broadway

1902: Henry is a cigar manufacturer in Louisville at 2803 West Broadway

1903: Henry is a cigar manufacturer in Louisville at 2803 West Broadway

1904: Henry is a cigarmaker, residing at 2606 Elliott

1905: Henry is a cigarmaker, residing at 2608 Elliott

1906: Henry is a cigarmaker, residing at 2606 Elliott

1907: Henry is a cigarmaker, residing at 2606 Elliott

1908: Henry is a cigarmaker, residing at 2606 Elliott

1909: Henry is a cigar manufacturer at 2606 (2608) Elliott

1910: Henry is a cigarmaker, residing at 2608 Elliott

1911: Henry is a cigarmaker, residing at 2608 Elliott

1913: Henry is a cigarmaker, residing at 2608 Elliott

1917: Henry is a cigarmaker, residing at 2608 Elliott

1918: Henry is a cigarmaker, residing at 2608 Elliott

-end John Thorn email-

The Reccuis Wagner is a great card regardless of whether it is his rookie card dating from 1897-1899 (as once commonly believed) or actually issued many years later (as certainly appears to be the case). To the best of my knowledge, only two Reccius Cigar Wagner trade cards are currently known to exist: 1) one in private hands (graded “Authentic” by PSA, sold at public auction in 2012 for $21,400); and 2) one graded PR-FR 1 by PSA that has been sold at public auction several times since 1997, last appearing at auction in 2006 ($52,039) and subsequently donated to the Hall of Fame by collector Hal Lewis (according to the plaque that accompanied it when on display). Interestingly, Bob Lemke’s blog documents a (presumably different) third example pictured in the December 6, 1950 edition of The Sporting News! Here’s a link:

http://boblemke.blogspot.com/2013/03...n-in-1950.html
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-12-2014, 03:21 PM
Baseball Rarities's Avatar
Baseball Rarities Baseball Rarities is offline
K3v1n Stru55
member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: California
Posts: 1,234
Default

Thanks to John for the work and to Rob for passing it along.

I wonder if those addresses are for his residential home or his commercial business.

Also, the 1891 address listed in the directory (Elliott Avenue near intersection with 27th Street) seems to be the same address as the 2606 Elliott Ave that is printed on the card and is listed from 1904 on.

Last edited by Baseball Rarities; 11-12-2014 at 04:26 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-12-2014, 03:27 PM
drcy's Avatar
drcy drcy is offline
David Ru.dd Cycl.eback
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,486
Default

People shouldn't smoke anyways.

I told my dad that when he reached 80 he could start smoking cigars, under the philosophy of 'Hey, when you hit 80 you can do whatever you want and, besides, what's the health concern at that point?' He said "Not if your mom is still around."

Last edited by drcy; 11-12-2014 at 03:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-12-2014, 03:42 PM
bcbgcbrcb bcbgcbrcb is offline
Phil Garry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,050
Default

I am also under the belief that it was issued much later than 1897-99, late teens - early twenties.....
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-12-2014, 03:47 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,485
Default

Years ago Hal Lewis posted the results of his extensive research into the dating of the Reccius Wagner, I believe he also concluded it was 20th century but I can't find it on a quick search as too many threads show up.
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions.

My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-12-2014, 04:06 PM
Bicem's Avatar
Bicem Bicem is offline
Jeff 'Prize-ner'
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 4,193
Default

Thanks for sharing the info Rob (and John)!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-12-2014, 05:40 PM
swarmee's Avatar
swarmee swarmee is offline
J0hn Raff3rty
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Niceville FL
Posts: 7,264
Default Funny you mention that...

Hans Wagner Cigar Box

Here's an auction I noticed last week that ended with no bids and got re-listed. Might be interesting to those reading this thread.
__________________
--
PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-12-2014, 06:11 PM
Michael Peich's Avatar
Michael Peich Michael Peich is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,084
Default

Great job of sharing valuable information, Rob. Many thanks to you and John Thorn.

Cheers,
Mike
__________________
http://t209-contentnea.com
Buying 1905-1915 Southern League cards, PCs, & memorabilia / T210: Series 2, 3, 4, 6, 7 & 8
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-12-2014, 06:47 PM
gnaz01's Avatar
gnaz01 gnaz01 is offline
Gr3g N@z@r3th
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,320
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
Hans Wagner Cigar Box

Here's an auction I noticed last week that ended with no bids and got re-listed. Might be interesting to those reading this thread.
This has been on eBay for 2 years, it has been deemed a fantasy piece, and not vintage. Here is a real Wagner label looks like that I have in my collection:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 0713BSpring2013_lg.jpg (13.7 KB, 1111 views)

Last edited by gnaz01; 11-12-2014 at 06:49 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-12-2014, 06:52 PM
swarmee's Avatar
swarmee swarmee is offline
J0hn Raff3rty
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Niceville FL
Posts: 7,264
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gnaz01 View Post
This has been on eBay for 2 years, it has been deemed a fantasy piece, and not vintage.
Appreciate it. Maybe it should be turned in as fake.
__________________
--
PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-12-2014, 07:00 PM
h2oya311's Avatar
h2oya311 h2oya311 is offline
Derek Granger
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 3,507
Default

Excellent info! Thanks for sharing!
__________________
...
http://imageevent.com/derekgranger

HOF "Earliest" Collection (Ideal - Indiv): 250/346 (72.3%)
1914 T330-2 Piedmont Art Stamps......: 116/119 (97.5%)
1923 V100 Willard's Chocolate............: 180/180 (100%)
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-12-2014, 07:31 PM
1880nonsports's Avatar
1880nonsports 1880nonsports is offline
Hen.ry Mos.es
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,470
Default if Tony Hyman gives you a date

that IS the date. NO-ONE knows more about cigars and their containers than Tony. His book is a must read for the cigarbox collector. A bit on the rougher side for some - he has always been willing to help me over many years. Pretty much retired and no longer doing radio shows....
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-12-2014, 07:42 PM
1880nonsports's Avatar
1880nonsports 1880nonsports is offline
Hen.ry Mos.es
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,470
Default Greg

show your cigar band :-)
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-12-2014, 07:42 PM
Baseball Rarities's Avatar
Baseball Rarities Baseball Rarities is offline
K3v1n Stru55
member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: California
Posts: 1,234
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1880nonsports View Post
that IS the date. NO-ONE knows more about cigars and their containers than Tony. His book is a must read for the cigarbox collector. A bit on the rougher side for some - he has always been willing to help me over many years. Pretty much retired and no longer doing radio shows....
I agree, Tony Hyman definitely knows his stuff, but in this case he is referring to the Wagner cigar box the REA auctioned off, not the trade card. They have nothing to do with each other except that they used the same image of Wagner.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-12-2014, 08:09 PM
ethicsprof ethicsprof is offline
Barry Arnold
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pensacola,Florida
Posts: 2,737
Default wagner

many thanks for the information, Rob and John.

As an aside, it's always great to hear about Hal Lewis and his involvements in the hobby some years back. Thanks for the memories, Peter S. .
all the best,
barry
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-12-2014, 08:17 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,485
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ethicsprof View Post
many thanks for the information, Rob and John.

As an aside, it's always great to hear about Hal Lewis and his involvements in the hobby some years back. Thanks for the memories, Peter S. .
all the best,
barry
Yeah, he was relentless in his obsession with "true" rookies. As some of the candidates were not baseball cards in the traditional sense, it made for some interesting discussions.
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions.

My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-13-2014, 02:01 AM
1880nonsports's Avatar
1880nonsports 1880nonsports is offline
Hen.ry Mos.es
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,470
Default my fault as I was preoccupied

could someone post a picture or link to the trade card? I've seen it before in a catalog I can't lay my hands on and the one on the blog linked above was hard to see clearly or make out details...........
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-13-2014, 03:20 AM
gnaz01's Avatar
gnaz01 gnaz01 is offline
Gr3g N@z@r3th
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,320
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1880nonsports View Post
show your cigar band :-)
Here it is
Attached Images
File Type: jpg image.jpg (56.0 KB, 980 views)
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-13-2014, 09:29 AM
spacktrack spacktrack is offline
Brian Dwyer
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 296
Default

For anyone not familiar with the Reccius Wagner card, I've included a picture below, followed by the cigar box REA auctioned featuring the same picture.



Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-13-2014, 10:40 AM
Steve D's Avatar
Steve D Steve D is offline
5t3v3...D4.w50n
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 1,984
Default

I've just done a bit of research on Ancestry.com, and have found the following information:

According to the 1889 Louisville Phone Directory, Henry Reccius lived on Elliott Ave near 29th.

According to the 1900 Federal Census, he lived at 2803 Elliott Ave.

The 1901 Louisville phonebook has him at 2803 West Broadway, in the Cigar Manufactures section of the "Yellow" pages.

The 1902 Louisville phonebook, lists him at 2803 West Broadway.

In the 1904 Louisville phonebook, his residence was 2606 Elliott Ave

The 1904 phonebook further listed his business at 2603 West Broadway. It also has an Elsie Reccius (his wife), with a sewing business at 2803 West Broadway.

The 1910 Federal Census shows him and his family living at 2608 Elliott Ave.

He's further listed in the 1915 phonebook at 2608 Elliott Ave.

Now, in the 1919 phonebook, he's listed as working for the J B Coblens & Co at 431 Amy Ave.

Then in the 1920 phonebook, he's listed at 1824 W Jeff, again with J B Coblens & Co.

The 1925 Phone book has him at 402 Amy Ave.

So, based on the above, it appears to me that the card was probably issued before 1902. This is because in 1901, he had a business at 2803 West Broadway. The card shows his address at 2606 Elliott, which was his residence. It also specifically mentions his home phone. If it was issued in 1901 or later, it is logical to think he would have put the West Broadway address on it, as that was his business address. Since the card shows his home address (he presumably worked from home at the time), it must have been issued before that. Furthermore, since his address is listed as 2803 Elliott Ave in the 1900 Federal Census (dated 4 Jun 1900), the card was probably issued after that. All this, to me, puts the trade card's date of issue before 1902.

Steve
__________________
Successful BST deals with eliotdeutsch, gonzo, jimivintage, Leon, lharris3600, markf31, Mrc32, sb1, seablaster, shammus, veloce.

Current Wantlist:
1909 Obak Howard (Los Angeles) (no frame on back)
1910 E90-2 Gibson, Hyatt, Maddox

Last edited by Steve D; 11-13-2014 at 10:51 AM. Reason: add data for 1901 and 1902
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 11-13-2014, 10:52 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,485
Default

Steve I don't quite follow your logic. Suppose he closed the business address after a couple of years and moved it back home? It could have been issued any time in the late 00s or early to mid teens then, no?
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions.

My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 11-13-2014, 11:30 AM
Steve D's Avatar
Steve D Steve D is offline
5t3v3...D4.w50n
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 1,984
Default

Peter,

That is a possibility.

I've also dug up the following interesting factoids:

Three of Henry Reccius' brothers, John, Bill and Phil, were in baseball.

John Reccius was a pitcher/centerfielder for the Louisville Eclipse (American Association) in 1882 and 1883.

Bill Reccius was the founder and manager of the Louisville Eclipse in the 1870s.

Phil Reccius played for Louisville from 1882 - 1888, Cleveland in 1887 and Rochester in 1890, all in the Amer Assoc.

The Reccius brothers were childhood friends of Pete Browning and Jimmy "Chicken" Wolf.

Reccius Baseball Park was the home of the team (at least from 1906 - 1915), at the NW corner of Garland Ave and 28th Street.

Steve
__________________
Successful BST deals with eliotdeutsch, gonzo, jimivintage, Leon, lharris3600, markf31, Mrc32, sb1, seablaster, shammus, veloce.

Current Wantlist:
1909 Obak Howard (Los Angeles) (no frame on back)
1910 E90-2 Gibson, Hyatt, Maddox

Last edited by Steve D; 11-13-2014 at 11:33 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 11-13-2014, 12:17 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,485
Default

As there are references to both 2606 and 2608 Elliott, perhaps at a point he had acquired adjacent properties and used one for business.
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions.

My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 08-10-2019, 03:40 PM
Kris19's Avatar
Kris19 Kris19 is offline
Kris Sweck@rd
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Dallas
Posts: 701
Default Reccius

I realize this is pulling up a thread from nearly 5 years ago, but nearly everyone who posted is still active, so I thought you might be interested in a little addendum. Sorry, it doesn't solve the big question of the issue date of the Reccius Wagner.

Henry’s brother, John, pitched in the American Association for the Louisville Colonels. Immediately following his playing days, he opened a sporting goods store specializing "Base Ball Supplies" in Louisville. His store also sold, among other things, cigars.

I recently won the business/advertising card shown below in an auction. Based on information found in the Louisville City Directory and the Louisville Courier-Journal, J W Reccius operated his base ball supplies store at 1703 Market St (the address on the card) in 1883 and 1884, then moved to a new location at 342 Third St. in 1885.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg img268.jpg (80.3 KB, 804 views)
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 08-10-2019, 04:12 PM
Rhotchkiss's Avatar
Rhotchkiss Rhotchkiss is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 4,543
Default

Great read. Thanks for reviving
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 11-01-2024, 01:50 AM
doug.goodman doug.goodman is offline
Doug Goodman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the road again...
Posts: 5,107
Default

Bump
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11-01-2024, 05:56 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,485
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by doug.goodman View Post
Bump
Two threads on the same subject was not enough, now we have three!!! LOL.
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions.

My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 11-01-2024, 06:14 PM
tjisonline's Avatar
tjisonline tjisonline is offline
TJ D3H@rs1°
Member
 
Join Date: May 2023
Posts: 260
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Two threads on the same subject was not enough, now we have three!!! LOL.

Mods / Leon can merge all 3 topics into one if desired. I’m a forum mod on another website & the software allows it.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 11-02-2024, 07:52 AM
Rhotchkiss's Avatar
Rhotchkiss Rhotchkiss is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 4,543
Default

Of the 3 current threads on the main board, I used this thread because it discusses the date of the Reccius Wagner.

There are two key bits of information on the card:
The Address: 2608 Elliott Avenue
The Phone Number: 6807

Rob's initial post in this thread argues that the card could not be issued before 1903 because Louisville Directories do not show Henry Reccius being at 2608 Elliot Avenue until 1904. Rob's argument, which is based on the address is compelling.

However, to me, the phone number is just as important. The question is whether Louisville had 4-digit phone numbers before 1900 and/or when did 4-digit phone numbers starting with "6" begin in Lousiville?

I own a Louisville Directory from 1899 that I acquired on ebay. I looked through the entire thing. There are 4-digit phone numbers, but none that start with a number other than "1" and "2". Thus, based on this information, and coupled with the fact that Henry Reccius is at 2216 Eddy in the pre-1900 directories, I believe that the Reccius Wagner cannot be pre-1900. So when was it issued?

I called that Louisville archives and I spoke to a man for about an hour. He flipped through Louisville directories from 1900-1904 looking for a 4-digit phone number starting with a "6" or higher. He did not find any. In fact, if I recall accurately, "4" was the highest 4-digit number located. This fact, taken with the address information Rob provides (which I confirmed with the archives), makes me believe that the card could not have been issued before 1904.

But here is what bothers me: Why would Reccius issue a cigar of Wagner, in Louisville garb, years after Wagner left Louisville? Aside from the few years spent on the Louisville team in 1897-99, he had no ties to the city. Yes, Louisville players were sold to Pittsburgh in 1899, so maybe all the Louisville fans became Pittsburgh fans, but do you use a Pittsburgh player, in Louisville, years after the transaction to sell your wares? Plus, I doubt Louisville people really cared much for Pittsburgh or their players - did Browns fans become Ravens fans or Baltimore Colts fans become Indianapolis Colts fans? It seems odd to me that Reccius would use Wagner non-contemporaneously with his playing days in Lousville.

There are many other reasons, including the dating of the use of trade cards, the card stock, the poem on the back, the cost of the cigars, and of course PSA says its from 1897-99 (but we know PSA doesnt know squat), etc. that indicate the card could be issued before 1900.

Ultimately, I have serious doubts that the card is from before 1900, and I a believe it was issued no earlier than 1904 (and likely later). It is because of this doubt that I did not strongly pursue the card -- its an awfully expensive item to take a risk on. My last bid was somewhere around $300k.

Regarding the Goldin description -- I think they did a very good job walking the line between promoting their consignor's item and disclosing the issues and arguments. The bottom line is that PSA says its from 1897-1899. They could have said that and nothing more. But how many people really know the history of Wagner and the card. Plus a card of this magnitude needs a description.

My gut is that many felt like I did and held back because of the dating uncertainty. If the date could be proven inconclusively, someone would have done it by now. And if it could be proven that the card is from before 1900, and thus his actual rookie, I suspect it would be worth $3mm+++. The fact that it didnt go over $1mm, let alone hit its reserve, indicates that the market has its concerns and priced the item accordingly.

Last edited by Rhotchkiss; 11-02-2024 at 08:57 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 11-02-2024, 08:11 AM
doug.goodman doug.goodman is offline
Doug Goodman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the road again...
Posts: 5,107
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Two threads on the same subject was not enough, now we have three!!! LOL.
Yes, this one has considerably better details which, previous to my bump, were for the most part lost to the sands of time to many readers of the other two threads.

Last edited by doug.goodman; 11-02-2024 at 08:12 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 11-02-2024, 08:43 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,485
Default

PSA explanation from 2006.

https://www.psacard.com/articles/art...-block-lelands

The card is made of medium stock with a reddish-orange color and measures 3-3/8 x 4-3/4". Notwithstanding the grade of PSA 1, this card still presents very well and has excellent eye appeal. It has some age wear, creasing, a 3/4" tear at the bottom right border, and wear to the corners which is consistent with the cards age. More importantly, the front of the card features a portrait of a young Honus (Hans) Wagner in a Louisville Colonels uniform pitching for "Henry Reccius, Manufacturer of Hans Wagner--10¢ Cigar" and "Koda Bowler Our Favorite Farmers' and Gardners' Favorite 5¢ Cigars."

On the reverse, there is a lengthy paragraph extolling the virtues of "Union Made" products and the workers who make them. The method in which this card was first distributed is unknown, but there is speculation from its size that it was either inserted in boxes of cigars or just handed to customers at the point of sale.

A "Honus Wagner" cigar box featuring this same image of Wagner was recently auctioned elsewhere and was shown to be from 1919, but the National Cigar Museum has confirmed that these were a completely different brand that was separate and distinct from the "Hans Wagner" cigars sold much earlier by Henry Reccius. In fact, the federally assigned factory number for Henry Reccius was Fact. 45, 5th Dist. KY. By 1893, they were already assigning factory numbers in the 600's in the 5th tax district in Kentucky, so Reccius was indeed assigned a very early number.

There is indisputable proof that Henry Reccius was making cigars as far back as 1870 when he was only 18 years old! The 1870 United States census of Louisville, Kentucky, lists "Henry Rewcius" as a cigar maker, and he was still living at home at that time with his two more famous brothers, John and Phil, who both went on to play professional baseball for the Colonels in the 1880's. In addition, the 1890 city directory for Louisville lists Henry Reccius as living on Elliott Street, and Louisville had 4-digit phone numbers prior to 1900. Accordingly, PSA had no problem authenticating this card as indeed having been distributed during the 1897-99 time period.
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions.

My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 11-02-2024, 10:11 AM
oldjudge's Avatar
oldjudge oldjudge is offline
j'a'y mi.ll.e.r
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Bronx
Posts: 5,716
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post
Of the 3 current threads on the main board, I used this thread because it discusses the date of the Reccius Wagner.

There are two key bits of information on the card:
The Address: 2608 Elliott Avenue
The Phone Number: 6807

Rob's initial post in this thread argues that the card could not be issued before 1903 because Louisville Directories do not show Henry Reccius being at 2608 Elliot Avenue until 1904. Rob's argument, which is based on the address is compelling.

However, to me, the phone number is just as important. The question is whether Louisville had 4-digit phone numbers before 1900 and/or when did 4-digit phone numbers starting with "6" begin in Lousiville?

I own a Louisville Directory from 1899 that I acquired on ebay. I looked through the entire thing. There are 4-digit phone numbers, but none that start with a number other than "1" and "2". Thus, based on this information, and coupled with the fact that Henry Reccius is at 2216 Eddy in the pre-1900 directories, I believe that the Reccius Wagner cannot be pre-1900. So when was it issued?

I called that Louisville archives and I spoke to a man for about an hour. He flipped through Louisville directories from 1900-1904 looking for a 4-digit phone number starting with a "6" or higher. He did not find any. In fact, if I recall accurately, "4" was the highest 4-digit number located. This fact, taken with the address information Rob provides (which I confirmed with the archives), makes me believe that the card could not have been issued before 1904.

But here is what bothers me: Why would Reccius issue a cigar of Wagner, in Louisville garb, years after Wagner left Louisville? Aside from the few years spent on the Louisville team in 1897-99, he had no ties to the city. Yes, Louisville players were sold to Pittsburgh in 1899, so maybe all the Louisville fans became Pittsburgh fans, but do you use a Pittsburgh player, in Louisville, years after the transaction to sell your wares? Plus, I doubt Louisville people really cared much for Pittsburgh or their players - did Browns fans become Ravens fans or Baltimore Colts fans become Indianapolis Colts fans? It seems odd to me that Reccius would use Wagner non-contemporaneously with his playing days in Lousville.

There are many other reasons, including the dating of the use of trade cards, the card stock, the poem on the back, the cost of the cigars, and of course PSA says its from 1897-99 (but we know PSA doesnt know squat), etc. that indicate the card could be issued before 1900.

Ultimately, I have serious doubts that the card is from before 1900, and I a believe it was issued no earlier than 1904 (and likely later). It is because of this doubt that I did not strongly pursue the card -- its an awfully expensive item to take a risk on. My last bid was somewhere around $300k.

Regarding the Goldin description -- I think they did a very good job walking the line between promoting their consignor's item and disclosing the issues and arguments. The bottom line is that PSA says its from 1897-1899. They could have said that and nothing more. But how many people really know the history of Wagner and the card. Plus a card of this magnitude needs a description.

My gut is that many felt like I did and held back because of the dating uncertainty. If the date could be proven inconclusively, someone would have done it by now. And if it could be proven that the card is from before 1900, and thus his actual rookie, I suspect it would be worth $3mm+++. The fact that it didnt go over $1mm, let alone hit its reserve, indicates that the market has its concerns and priced the item accordingly.
Ryan--great research! My thought is that it is possible that this was some sort of commemorative card. No doubt that Wagner was a popular player when he played for Louisville. In 1909 Pittsburgh won their first World Series with Wagner leading the way. That would seem like a perfect time to issue a card advertising your product with a reminder of where the current World Series hero started. I personally believe that the most likely date for the card is thus 1909.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 11-02-2024, 10:23 AM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
Scott Russell
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 6,955
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post

But here is what bothers me: Why would Reccius issue a cigar of Wagner, in Louisville garb, years after Wagner left Louisville?
The same reason cities of minor league teams who produce huge major league stars issue cards for them long after they've left town. I know of several Reading Phillies issues like that and most of those guys were in town for less than a year. Wagner playing several years in Louisville and then becoming one of the biggest stars in the majors, which he was by 1904, could easily inspire a local vendor to do something like that.

I think your research is fantastic and don't find any contradiction, or even anything unusual in the fact that he was issued in a Louisville uniform years after he played there.
__________________
Check out https://www.thecollectorconnection.com Always looking for consignments 717.327.8915 We sell your less expensive pre-war cards individually instead of in bulk lots to make YOU the most money possible!

and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecollectorconnectionauctions
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 11-02-2024, 10:30 AM
CW's Avatar
CW CW is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,536
Default

Not sure if this is a preview that Goldin will attempt to auction off the card again, but when I googled "reccius Goldin", this link showed up:

https://goldin.co/item/1897-99-henry...JkSW5kZXgiOjB9

I also thought maybe it was a good idea to copy/paste the Goldin description here for posterity since it is being referred to in the discussion of the card. If this clogs up the thread, I can just delete it, but thought others that don't visit Goldin may want to see it.


HISTORY

Other "rogue" cardboard issues and trading cards have certainly elevated themselves to a prestigious hobby level including the time-defying 1869 Peck & Synder Cincinnati Red Stockings trade-card and the incomparable 1914 Baltimore News Babe Ruth baseball schedule. While not your conventional or mainstream cardboard issues, they are highly recognized as two of the hobby's foremost collectibles. Such is the case for this ever-elusive Wagner, boasting unparalleled rarity versus any of its inferior peers. Its inaugural appearance to the collecting community was in 1997, when it was unearthed from a by-gone scrapbook of deceased Louisville resident Jesse Hathorn. Since its first arrival, there have been a myriad of conflicting accounts as to its "true" original issue date (19th century or early to mid-1900's?), with the exact distribution date an on-going conundrum. Throughout his illustrious business career, Henry Reccius ran his cigar operation from numerous locations including his Elliot Avenue home address (listed on the card) as well as a 2803 West Broadway based facility in the early 20th century. The card also reveals a four-digit phone code along the right edge, with Louisville's pre-1900 directory already including four-digit telephone numbers (this information is also documented on PSA's website). The emergence of a 1919 cigar box including the exact same Wagner Louisville image certainly added to collector's concerns regarding a possible post-1910 issue date, but this uncertainty was quickly debunked and put to rest. The National Cigar Museum confirmed that the cigar box in question was a completely distinct brand sold by Henry Reccius years earlier. PSA’s website definitively states: "the federally assigned factory number for Henry Reccius was Fact. 45, 5th Dist. KY. By 1893, they were already assigning factory numbers in the 600's in the 5th tax district in Kentucky, so Reccius was indeed assigned a very early number." While the exact issue date for this unfathomable Louisville Wagner is shrouded in mystery, what we know for certain is the following:

It would make complete sense for Reccius to have issued this trading card revealing Hans Wagner in a Colonels uniform during his popular Louisville playing days for maximum promotional purposes. Wagner was the "talk of the town" during his 1897-1899 Louisville tenure, and his emergence on such a trading card might not benefit Reccius's cigar-making industry after his departure to the "Steel City" (out of sight – out of mind). That said, the suggested 1897-1899 issue date places this world-class heirloom as the true Honus Wagner rookie card, pre-dating the 1902 W600 Sporting Life Type cabinet by at least three years.

According to the National Library of Scotland, the most likely publication period for Joseph Bert Smiley’s "St. Peter at the Gate" ballad affixed to the verso is 1880-1900. This ballad will be further discussed later in the description.

The medium card stock is consistent with other 1890-1899 cardboard issues, one of which is the 1897 Page Fence Giants trade card exhibiting a similar size and appearance.

Non-sequential four-digit phone codes were utilized in Louisville, Kentucky in the 1897-1899 period (confirmed on PSA's website as well as existing city registries), and while we were unable to confirm a 6807 number for the Henry Reccius cigar business, the possibility certain exists for that code to have been used during that era.

Regardless of the exact issue date, this offering unquestionably stands as the SOLE Hans Wagner baseball card portraying baseball’s greatest all-time shortstop in a Louisville Colonels uniform, with only two other known examples extant. This alone, merits an unequivocal "mystique" similar to his T206 subject.

The use of Wagner’s hallowed "Hans" name suggests a late 19th century to early 20th century distribution since the use of "Hans" was more common during this time frame.

The Reccius trade card is a true Wagner tobacco card, issued over a decade before his T206 subject that was ultimately "pulled" from the ATC production in early 1909.

Additional research indicates that the 2606 Elliot Ave. Reccius address was changed to 2608 in 1909. While this does not assist us in pinpointing an exact release date, it eliminates even the remote possibility of the card being distributed after 1909. As PSA and other renowned hobbyists attest to, we strongly believe this card to have been issued between the years of 1897 – 1900 that would place it as the undisputed Honus Wagner rookie card. Its sheer existence is miraculous to say the least, with other critical aspects being the "POP 3" rarity and the Reccius Wagner undoubtedly residing as the 1936 HOF Charter Member's only card revealing him clad in a Louisville Colonel uniform. Collectors should not be deceived by seemingly low-end prior sales, with the other PSA PR 1 realizing $52K some 18 years ago in a 2006 public auction (an "Authentic" sold for $21K in 2012, the exact same card offered here that PSA appropriately reassessed to a PSA PR 1). Keep in mind that PSA 1 T206 Wagners during this same period were fetching in the $100K range (two PSA 1's sold for $101 and $132K in 2005 – there were no PSA 1 sales in 2006). These low-grade T206 Wagner cards now command $3 - $4 million pricing points, with the approximate 30x pricing multiplier resulting in a $1.5 million+ Reccius Wagner value if equally applied.

Just gazing at this ultra rare Wagner memento can literally make one "skip a beat," with the highlight being the virtually sanctified portrait image revealing the immortal Hans in his Louisville Colonels flannels. As previously stated, the Reccius subject is the only baseball card revealing this by-gone superstar in a Louisville Colonels uniform, with this momentous pose unique to the three known examples. The accurate assessment is due to general surface wear, a horizontal fold/crease running directly across the card beneath Wagner's chin, some stray wrinkles including a vertical crease extending from the top edge through Wagner's right shoulder, and even corner wear. Gazing at this late 19th century artifact can literally send shivers through anyone's spine, with Wagner's stoic facial expression, period-style striped cap and dapper tie effectively transcending time to an era when the legendary Hans was establishing himself as baseball's finest player. The renowned Wagner could do it all, and his formidable Colonels 1899 teammate Tommy Leach once defined his diamond prowess to Lawrence Ritter for The Glory of Their Times as follows:

"I hardly had time to get settled before it hits me that this guy the Louisville club had at third base was practically doing the impossible. I'm sitting on the bench the first day I reported, and along about the third inning an opposing batter smacks a line drive down the third-base line that looked like at least a sure double. Well, this big Louisville third baseman jumped over after it like he was on steel springs, slapped it down with his bare hand, scrambled after it at least ten feet, and fired a bullet over to first base. The runner was out by two or three steps. I'm sitting on the bench and my eyes are popping out. So, I poked the guy sitting next to me, and asked him who the devil that big fellow was on third base. "Why, that's Wagner," he says. "He's the best third baseman in the league. And it also turned out that while Honus was the best third baseman in the league, he was also the best first baseman, the best second baseman, the best shortstop, and the best outfielder. That was in fielding. And since he led the league in batting eight times between 1900 and 1911, you know that he was the best hitter, too. As well as the best base runner."

The obverse side exhibits critical text including an extremely bold “HENRY RECCIUS” caption beneath the electrifying oval pose. Additional verbiage includes "Manufacturer of Hans Wagner 10 cents Cigar – Koda – Bowler – Our Favorite Farmers' and Gardeners' Favorite 5 cents Cigars." Along the left edge is the Henry Reccius "2606 ELLIOT AVENUE, LOUISVILLE, KY." home address that this distinguished cigar manufacturer utilized for his successful business, with the "6807 HOME TELEPHONE" likewise portrayed in vertical fashion near the right edge. The notion that Henry Reccius maintained religious beliefs is substantiated by the eclectic verso that includes a resounding poem, a parody of Joseph Bert Smiley's "St. Peter at the Gate." Cleverly used, it promotes union labor and rails versus anti-strikers, and you can enhance the flipside scan on the Goldin website to easily read this charming ballad.

CLOSING COMMENTS

This extraordinary offering truly represents one of the hobby's most captivating baseball cards, the assumed rookie issue of our National Pastime's greatest shortstop who claimed an N.L. record eight batting titles. One of only three known subjects, it bursts with historical significance at a level only achieved by Wagner's other iconic card, his 1909 T206 tobacco marvel. If the T206 Wagner is the hobby’s "Holy Grail," then this considerably scarcer offering must be dubbed his neighboring "Mona Lisa." Indeed, the meager three documented specimens is a mere fraction of the 60+ known T206 Wagners, with one of those three Henry Reccius subjects forever enshrined in Cooperstown, N.Y. If you are fortunate enough to own a T206 Wagner, no card could possibly represent a finer "bookend" than the Reccius Wagner due to its alleged rookie stature, extreme rarity, and classic Louisville Colonels image elusive to any other known baseball card. While there is some uncertainty as to its definitive issue date, the PSA industry leader has utilized available information to place it within the 1897 – 1899 timeframe. At some point in time, the hallowed T206 Wagner achieved its unequivocal immortality not just because of its scarcity, but more significantly, due to the fascinating history behind it ultimately being pulled from the ATC's production. The same can be said for the likewise iconic 1952 Topps Mantle that also achieved pinnacle hobby stature via Sy Berger's decision to dump "truckloads" of excess 1952 Topps high-number vending cases into the Atlantic's murky waters off the coast of New Jersey. Indeed, both the T206 Wagner and 1952 Topps Mantle stand at the top of the popularity chart due to their magical history. This Reccius Wagner just might be the next hobby "Holy Grail" via its majestic Wagner Louisville Colonels image unique for any baseball card as well as the PSA-supported late-1890's Wagner rookie issue date leading the charge. The final exclamation point is its incredible "POP 3" count, placing it as a much scarcer subject than even the 1914 Baltimore News Babe Ruth for which there are 10 known copies, one of which selling for a staggering $7.2 million less than a year ago. These concepts substantiate the notion that the Reccius Wagner might eventually foster an indelible "mystique" tantamount to its T206 Honus tobacco peer. On the threshold of rightfully becoming the hobby's next colossal sports card, we will let the sophisticated enthusiast ultimately determine its true worth, considering its assumed seven-figure value is justified by the T206 Wagner's price tags soaring at a 30x rate since the PSA 1 Reccius Wagner $52K sale in 2006!

Last edited by CW; 11-02-2024 at 10:33 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 11-02-2024, 10:30 AM
oldjudge's Avatar
oldjudge oldjudge is offline
j'a'y mi.ll.e.r
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Bronx
Posts: 5,716
Default

Ryan--I'm interested in what your thinking was that led you to even a $300k bid for the card. Why would a post-1900 card be worth anywhere near that amount. My thinking was say in 1930 a Baltimore company, seeking to capitalize on Babe Ruth's popularity, issued a trade card with an old image of him on Baltimore. My guess is that such a card would not be worth a lot, ballpark high four figure low five figure number. If that valuation is correct then why should the Wagner be valued any differently?
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 11-02-2024, 10:58 AM
Rhotchkiss's Avatar
Rhotchkiss Rhotchkiss is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 4,543
Default

Jay, I don’t Know exactly what my bid was, it was whatever was the next increment and I think it started at like $250k. I knew I wouldn’t win it at that price and wanted to put in placeholder just in case I decided to go after the card (like I do with tons of items each auction).

I think the card is very special and I would love to own it/one. But it quickly went well beyond what I was willing to pay
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 11-02-2024, 11:23 AM
Lorewalker's Avatar
Lorewalker Lorewalker is offline
Chase
Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 1,729
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
The same reason cities of minor league teams who produce huge major league stars issue cards for them long after they've left town. I know of several Reading Phillies issues like that and most of those guys were in town for less than a year. Wagner playing several years in Louisville and then becoming one of the biggest stars in the majors, which he was by 1904, could easily inspire a local vendor to do something like that.

I think your research is fantastic and don't find any contradiction, or even anything unusual in the fact that he was issued in a Louisville uniform years after he played there.
It was not really Ryan's research but that of a couple of others from years ago. It is a fascinating piece, no doubt, but after reading the 3 threads, I think after Ryan's further digging, his conclusion is the most reasonable.
__________________
( h @ $ e A n + l e y
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 11-02-2024, 11:36 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,485
Default

It's very hard to follow all the address changes, but is there anything actually showing Reccius on Elliott Ave. in the late 1890s?
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions.

My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 11-02-2024 at 11:39 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 11-02-2024, 11:37 AM
calvindog's Avatar
calvindog calvindog is offline
Jeffrey Lichtman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,878
Default

No chance Goldin auctions that card off anytime soon. The consigner was greedy and should have simply run the card without a reserve and gotten out of it. Now all of these threads will pop up and even the least educated of wealthy collectors will find them.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 11-02-2024, 01:54 PM
oldjudge's Avatar
oldjudge oldjudge is offline
j'a'y mi.ll.e.r
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Bronx
Posts: 5,716
Default

LOL, perhaps another HOF donation
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 11-02-2024, 05:42 PM
bcbgcbrcb bcbgcbrcb is offline
Phil Garry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,050
Default

I knew all about the dating issue with the card 15 years ago and I had no intention nor wherewithal of bidding on it for that reason. More, I could never afford it but as a potential rookie card, knew it was out of the picture. How anyone, let alone several others, could bid this card up to $875,000 is ridiculous to me. Don’t we need to be a little more educated on what we spend $875K on? To me, anything much above the previous high sale of $50K is questionable.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 11-02-2024, 06:02 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,485
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb View Post
I knew all about the dating issue with the card 15 years ago and I had no intention nor wherewithal of bidding on it for that reason. More, I could never afford it but as a potential rookie card, knew it was out of the picture. How anyone, let alone several others, could bid this card up to $875,000 is ridiculous to me. Don’t we need to be a little more educated on what we spend $875K on? To me, anything much above the previous high sale of $50K is questionable.
Maybe they weren't bids that were placed with the hope of winning, given the rules.
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions.

My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 11-02-2024, 10:34 PM
oldjudge's Avatar
oldjudge oldjudge is offline
j'a'y mi.ll.e.r
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Bronx
Posts: 5,716
Default

It would be nice if Goldin disclosed what the highest real bid was (perhaps they were all real, who knows?).
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 11-04-2024, 10:40 AM
nolemmings's Avatar
nolemmings nolemmings is online now
Todd Schultz
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 3,923
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
It's very hard to follow all the address changes, but is there anything actually showing Reccius on Elliott Ave. in the late 1890s?
It seems two or three of his addresses were at or very near the ballpark where Louisville played its professional games. Also, it seems Henry Reccius was not simply an obscure cigar maker with few ties to baseball. Although it won’t solve the mystery of when this Wagner trade card was issued (I believe like most here that it was not at any time in the 19th Century) here are some random facts I found in old newspaper accounts in case someone wants to build on them with further investigation:
1. Henry was the groundskeeper at Eclipse Park in Louisville from 1876 through at least 1888, and was both elected and re-elected manager of the ballpark. The ballpark was located at 28th and Elliott, and Henry’s address in 1891 was “Elliott near intersection with 27th Street”. Also, he moved back to that same address or neighborhood in 1901– the 2608 Elliott address found on the trade card.
2. The Eclipse ballpark burned September 27, 1892. This may explain why Henry relocated that year. It also could have damaged his cigar-making business, since his listed address for 1892-1893 and 1895 has him working for someone else-- R.N. Newell and Bickel.
3. R.N. Newell appears in the Louisville papers somewhat often up to 1889, but not thereafter. Other than some barebones ads, the news focused on how the company was being sued, its assets attached, and finally sold at auction in 1889, so it is unclear what remained or was reorganized for Henry to list that company as associated with him in 1892-1893 .
4. CC Bickel was a widely known cigar manufacturer, with its most popular brand “Daniel Boone”. In 1893 it filed trademark infringement litigation over use of the "brand, head, face and features of Daniel Boone” by Joseph Steinberg on his cigar boxes. This would have alerted Henry to be careful in using Honus Wagner’s likeness on his own products, if he was not already aware.
5. A new Eclipse ballpark was built in 1893 at the SW corner of 28th and Broadway. Henry’s address is 2803 West Broadway for 1901-1903, again near or at the ballpark location. However, that ballpark was also destroyed by fire in August, 1899, i.e. before it was his listed address, and rebuilt at a different address by 1902.

As already noted, the Reccius family was big in Louisville baseball. Henry’s brothers John William (likely called Bill since the baby of the family also went by Johnnie) and Phil both played for the N.L. Louisville Colonels– their numbers can be found in Baseball Reference, and John William managed the Eclipse team when it had Tony Mullane and Pete Browning. Brother Frank Reccius played minor league ball for Milwaukee and was a minor league manager. After leaving the big leagues, brother John William managed a semi-pro team in town called the Reccius team, and they played at Reccius park on 28th and Garland. He owned a sporting goods store in town, and other Reccius family members played minor league or semi-pro ball.
A news story from 1902 says that Phil Reccius had “for about five years” been a cigar salesman for his brother Henry, meaning that Henry Reccius cigars were available at least as far back in 1897, for what that’s worth. Sadly, the story revolved around Phil being sent to an asylum after pulling a gun on a store owner who had put Henry’s cigar box on the bottom of the stack and who then declined to display it in a more prominent spot. Several instances were noted of Phil’s erratic behavior, alleged to have stemmed from getting hit by a batted ball in the early 1890's that knocked him unconscious. Less than a year after being placed in the asylum he was dead at age 41.
As most here know, the National League contracted four teams including Louisville after the 1899 season, when team President Barney Dreyfuss sold the release of Wagner, Clarke and a dozen or more remaining Louisville players to the Pittsburgh club. The city would get an American Association team in 1901, but of course Wagner was by then long gone.
Again no mystery solved, but I found the history interesting and maybe someone here can dig deeper.
__________________
"You start a conversation, you can't even finish it
You're talking a lot, but you're not saying anything
When I have nothing to say, my lips are sealed
Say something once, why say it again?"

If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other.- Ulysses S. Grant, 18th US President.

Last edited by nolemmings; 11-04-2024 at 11:10 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 11-04-2024, 03:10 PM
bcbgcbrcb bcbgcbrcb is offline
Phil Garry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,050
Default

Great info, thanks for posting, Todd.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Henry Reccius HONUS WAGNER card iggyman Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 71 07-25-2014 07:12 AM
Honus Wagner Cigar Box Shoeless Moe Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used 9 12-05-2013 09:03 PM
Henry Reccius Honus Wagner reprint e107collector Tobacco (T) cards, except T206 B/S/T 1 10-08-2010 05:22 PM
1897-99 Reccius Honus Wagner for SALE Archive Ebay, Auction and other Venues Announcement- B/S/T 0 03-03-2006 09:10 PM
(Honus Wagner) CIGAR BOX Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 79 04-26-2005 12:30 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:34 PM.


ebay GSB