Interesting You Tube clip from from Greg Morris

[Shemp]

Came across this on You Tube.

https://youtu.be/jdH5oO8LU_A

Joe

[mrreality68]

Interesting clip especially for people newer in the collection hobby.

Good reminders for the more tenured

[Wanaselja]

This is a good place to ask this question. I didn’t want to waste a thread with it. In GM’s listings he calls out cards as “low grade (filler)”. What does filler mean?

Thanks.

[JollyElm]

Like a placeholder. A card in bad shape that you use to fill the slot in your binder (or box or whatever) until a better one comes along.

[jingram058]

What he said. Perfect definition.

[Wanaselja]

Thank you gentlemen! Can always count on this board. He also labels items as “low grade (crease)” so I thought “filler” was some kind of defect I’d never heard of before. Thank you again.

[BobbyStrawberry]

It also apparently means "trimmed" according to some of his recent T206 listings.

[molenick]

I agree with that definition but just to add to that I think filler may have started as a coin collecting term.

Beginning collectors used to start by filling up folders where each coin in a series (say, Lincoln cents) had a designated pocket or slot. Some slots (1909-S VDB, 1909-S, 1914-D, etc.) would be expensive to fill with a high grade coin, so a lower grade one could be used as a "filler".

[GasHouseGang]

He said to help detect trimming each card that enters their system is electronically measured to within 1/45". I wondered how they do that. What would you use to electronically measure a card to that accuracy? Does anyone have a guess? Also, if he's really doing this, why can't PSA?

[ldrunner27]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

It also apparently means "trimmed" according to some of his recent T206 listings.

Thanks for pointing this out. I avoided bidding on some of the cards noted as filler because while some cards were obviously trimmed, I was concerned about winning one where it was much more subtle. Kind of wish they would have mentioned which ones were trimmed in the listing.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by molenick

I agree with that definition but just to add to that I think filler may have started as a coin collecting term.

Beginning collectors used to start by filling up folders where each coin in a series (say, Lincoln cents) had a designated pocket or slot. Some slots (1909-S VDB, 1909-S, 1914-D, etc.) would be expensive to fill with a high grade coin, so a lower grade one could be used as a "filler".

I will agree with you. When I was collecting coins and low end stamps in the 1970's you would use a low grade coin to fill a hold until you found a better one. My best one was for the 1955 double die. I actually found what is called a 'poor man's double die' in change. Only the last '5' was doubled, not the whole date.

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

He said to help detect trimming each card that enters their system is electronically measured to within 1/45". I wondered how they do that. What would you use to electronically measure a card to that accuracy? Does anyone have a guess? Also, if he's really doing this, why can't PSA?

I’d like to know what is used too. I’d buy one if it is reasonable.

[Fred]

I've never purchased from GM cards. I looked at the ebay offerings and found GM cards has a lot of material for sale.

Out of all the cards for sale (pages and pages) I didn't see any graded cards. I don't recall seeing much in the way of opinions that would provide the bidder with information indicating GM cards felt the cards were trimmed (some were obviously trimmed), which was kind of disappointing, however, a 30 day return policy is offered which at least provides the buyer the opportunity to return the cards.

I'll put the seller on my watch list because there's a lot of low priced alternatives (fillers) offered (if that's what you like).

If you have a PSA slab that was cracked open, you could probably use half the slab for a quick check to see if modern day cards measure up to the standard dimensions. You could also quickly identify oversized cards.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Fred

I've never purchased from GM cards. I looked at the ebay offerings and found GM cards has a lot of material for sale.

Out of all the cards for sale (pages and pages) I didn't see any graded cards.

Just anf fyi, they sell graded cards through their ebay account "gmcards2"

I've bought from both accounts.

They have an amazing selection. I've bought raw T207s, 1929 Kashins, Wheaties issues from the '30s, Berk Ross, 50s Royal Desserts. The volume of rare issues they sell at auction is fantastic.

And if you are ever unsatisfied with a purchase, you can return for free (they pay the postage), with no questions asked.

Amazing seller.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

He said to help detect trimming each card that enters their system is electronically measured to within 1/45". I wondered how they do that. What would you use to electronically measure a card to that accuracy? Does anyone have a guess? Also, if he's really doing this, why can't PSA?

PSA measures them as well. That's why cards get rejected as "minsize".

While I appreciate him wanting to put this video out to inform the public of a few things to watch out for, I also got a bit of a laugh at how naive he comes across though. 1/45 of an inch isn't going to matter when these guys are capable of trimming off 1/128th of an inch, and even that's not going to matter anyhow if the card was oversized to begin with. Obviously, if a card is 1/4" short or something like that, then sure, measuring helps, but you usually need to look at the edge under magnification to be able to tell if it's been trimmed. There are some telltale signs like the level of oxidation in the card stock for vintage, or one super squared edge, or bat wing corners, etc. That increases the likelihood of a trimmed card, but it doesn't guarantee it. Even cards that have not been trimmed can still have these attributes.

However, with modern cards... Lol at anyone thinking they could detect a "professionally" trimmed edge on an ultra modern card like Topps Chrome. For many cards, it's simply not possible to detect.

I think the TPGs should run some experiments with known alerted cards to see what gets through grading. I think it would be a massive eye opener for them and the hobby at large. But they don't want to do that because it would reveal their incompetency.

[irv]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Just anf fyi, they sell graded cards through their ebay account "gmcards2"

I've bought from both accounts.

They have an amazing selection. I've bought raw T207s, 1929 Kashins, Wheaties issues from the '30s, Berk Ross, 50s Royal Desserts. The volume of rare issues they sell at auction is fantastic.

And if you are ever unsatisfied with a purchase, you can return for free (they pay the postage), with no questions asked.

Amazing seller.

My sentiments as well. I've purchased many cards from GM and a few graded through GM2 too.
Never a problem so I will continue to do that despite their recent increase in shipping fees to us Canucks.

[h2oya311]

Pretty awesome that GM does this “service”. My understanding is that most (all?) of the cards he sells are from consignments. I doubt probstein is doing this detection. That said, if he’s detecting these alterations, I’m not sure why he’s not identifying a card as trimmed in his description listings?? There’s a fine line between being upfront with card grades (he does a good job of this, in general) and pissing off consigners.

For full disclosure, I have purchased many cards from GM and have been very satisfied. Never consigned anything to him/them, but would certainly consider them over other consignment “shops” if and when that time comes.

[irv]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

Pretty awesome that GM does this “service”. My understanding is that most (all?) of the cards he sells are from consignments. I doubt probstein is doing this detection. That said, if he’s detecting these alterations, I’m not sure why he’s not identifying a card as trimmed in his description listings?? There’s a fine line between being upfront with card grades (he does a good job of this, in general) and pissing off consigners.

For full disclosure, I have purchased many cards from GM and have been very satisfied. Never consigned anything to him/them, but would certainly consider them over other consignment “shops” if and when that time comes.

I have seen it a few times.
Only a guess here but I would assume a majority of trimmed cards get rejected as do pressed cards unless it is a high end desirable card?

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by irv

I have seen it a few times.
Only a guess here but I would assume a majority of trimmed cards get rejected as do pressed cards unless it is a high end desirable card?

They post cards as "minimum size" but I'm not sure they sell trimmed cards.

Its possible they list trimmed cards as low grade (filler).

While I do love Greg Morris cards, they don't have a lot of description of their listings, probably to keep costs manageable.

They basically grade cards in 6 main ways: 1) NR-MNT or better 2) NR-MINT 3) EX-MNT 4) VG-VGEX (and sometimes they add "Crease" or "Wrinkle" to description) 5) LOW GRADE (and sometimes they add "Crease" or "Wrinkle") 6) LOW GRADE (filler)

Sometimes I wonder what makes a card LOW GRADE (filler) such as these cards:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/313828958833?hash=item4911a9e271:g:1uEAAOSwbGth3bp l

https://www.ebay.com/itm/38467316840...gAAOSw0P9h3bqI

So again, its possible that some of the LOW GRADE (filler) cards are suspected as being trimmed, or there is some other reason the cards got such a low grading.

[nolemmings]

I am uncertain whether he is just being safely conservative in his grading. He auctioned off several dozen m101-4s the past couple of days that were listed mostly as low grade and filler but clearly are not. That set has wide tolerance in measurements, and I believe he listed them as fillers because of this, although I agree with others that if he believes a card is trimmed he should say so. If it fails to measure or he is uncertain, just indicate that or put a question mark in the listing. Frankly, when I first went through those offerings and saw so many low grade filler descriptions I thought someone had just forgotten to change the description in the title.

Here is an example of what he called a filler:



This card has somewhat narrow side borders but is within tolerance and is not trimmed. It also has some discoloration on the back, but so do hundreds of graded examples that do not discount for this. Scans can be deceiving, but unless that is paper loss or glue residue on the back there is no way that card is a filler. Absent those problems it would grade EX or so, although these days the cost of grading does not justify its submission. Oh well, good for the buyer I guess.

*** Just to be clear, I have purchased many cards from this seller and believe him to be one of the good guys.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Fred

I've never purchased from GM cards. I looked at the ebay offerings and found GM cards has a lot of material for sale.

Out of all the cards for sale (pages and pages) I didn't see any graded cards. I don't recall seeing much in the way of opinions that would provide the bidder with information indicating GM cards felt the cards were trimmed (some were obviously trimmed), which was kind of disappointing, however, a 30 day return policy is offered which at least provides the buyer the opportunity to return the cards.

I'll put the seller on my watch list because there's a lot of low priced alternatives (fillers) offered (if that's what you like).

If you have a PSA slab that was cracked open, you could probably use half the slab for a quick check to see if modern day cards measure up to the standard dimensions. You could also quickly identify oversized cards.

Good idea Fred, but who run their right mind would crack open a valuable PSA slab. It would take a year or more and big bucks to get the card reholdered with no guarantee that the grade would not be reduced.

[mrreality68]

Never had an issue with them and the shipping was fast when I have used them.

[Johnny630]

Again this proves to me the PSA controls the market, I love it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

PSA measures them as well. That's why cards get rejected as "minsize".

While I appreciate him wanting to put this video out to inform the public of a few things to watch out for, I also got a bit of a laugh at how naive he comes across though. 1/45 of an inch isn't going to matter when these guys are capable of trimming off 1/128th of an inch, and even that's not going to matter anyhow if the card was oversized to begin with. Obviously, if a card is 1/4" short or something like that, then sure, measuring helps, but you usually need to look at the edge under magnification to be able to tell if it's been trimmed. There are some telltale signs like the level of oxidation in the card stock for vintage, or one super squared edge, or bat wing corners, etc. That increases the likelihood of a trimmed card, but it doesn't guarantee it. Even cards that have not been trimmed can still have these attributes.

However, with modern cards... Lol at anyone thinking they could detect a "professionally" trimmed edge on an ultra modern card like Topps Chrome. For many cards, it's simply not possible to detect.

I think the TPGs should run some experiments with known alerted cards to see what gets through grading. I think it would be a massive eye opener for them and the hobby at large. But they don't want to do that because it would reveal their incompetency.

Regarding the 1/128th, what's your understanding of what people are using to microtrim that little? As much as trimming was discussed on Blowout, I don't think there was much about the actual mechanics/technology.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Regarding the 1/128th, what's your understanding of what people are using to microtrim that little? As much as trimming was discussed on Blowout, I don't think there was much about the actual mechanics/technology.

I think a laser cutter would do the trick: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKzInkEKmVo&t=3s

[Johnny630]

I thought it was Roto Trim

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I thought it was Roto Trim

Hard to believe those could cut that finely, but I can't say I know.

[Flintboy]

Any idea on how they are electronically measuring cards? Is this new technology that’s out there?

[JollyElm]

A bit of a tangent, but a little while back at a card show I happened to be digging through all sorts of stuff at dealers' tables and a buyer from Greg Morris kept appearing and interacting with the sellers to see if they had sets, partial sets or whatever to sell. The oddest part was that no one seemed to be familiar with the GM brand. He kept explaining who they were. It was bizarre, because virtually all of his here are very familiar with the brand(s), but none of the cardboard slingers there seemed to have any idea who they were. The buyer was very personable and kept filling his bags with newly purchased merch, so it was interesting to watch.

[Tere1071]

With the exception of two or three times out of 40+ cards that I have purchased from Greg Morris, I've found spot-on in terms of grading. I use his grading as an example when describing the condition of the cards that I want to purchase as well as a guide for the items that I post for sale.