How does Shohei Ohtani have a RC card?

[bn2cardz]

In Topps Heritage and Topps Opening Day there are Shohei Ohtani Rookie cards with the RC logo. Why is this allowed? He hasn't made the 25 man roster, the only stipulation that I know of. He was, and still is, a non-roster invitation to spring training.

So is there a rule I am missing that allowed Topps to start making 'RC' designated cards for him? Admittedly I only started pondering the question after it started looking like there was a possibility that he may not make the team and may start the season in the minors.

[Rich Klein]

Well that was an assumption he'd be in the majors. It will be interesting if he gets "stuck" in the minors and never comes to the majors. That would actually end up as a violation of the Topps/MLB-MLBPA agreement as players, are supposed to have played in the majors before having an RC.

When the rule was 1st created even Daisuke M. had to actually be on the opening day before an RC could be released of his. This might force everyone to go back and enforce that rule. For if this stands, then if I'm Topps or Panini I begin to open that door even wider in terms of early RC's.

Rich

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

Well that was an assumption he'd be in the majors. It will be interesting if he gets "stuck" in the minors and never comes to the majors. That would actually end up as a violation of the Topps/MLB-MLBPA agreement as players, are supposed to have played in the majors before having an RC.

When the rule was 1st created even Daisuke M. had to actually be on the opening day before an RC could be released of his. This might force everyone to go back and enforce that rule. For if this stands, then if I'm Topps or Panini I begin to open that door even wider in terms of early RC's.

Rich

If I am not mistaken isn't this what caused the Alex Gordon cut out/ white out 2006 Topps card? I do find it interesting that MLB allowed this.

[Peter_Spaeth]

He has cards from Japan dating back I believe to 2013. Why anyone would pay these prices for what is essentially a 6th year card of him is beyond me.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He has cards from Japan dating back I believe to 2013. Why anyone would pay these prices for what is essentially a 6th year card of him is beyond me.

Japanese cards, I believe, are equated to minor league cards in the hobby. Similar to people having less respect for the 90's Best cards than the player's first major release. Yet that is still only a tangent as to why Topps was allowed to make these non-prospect cards prior to the season, or any official announcement of him being added to a ML roster.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Japanese cards, I believe, are equated to minor league cards in the hobby. Similar to people having less respect for the 90's Best cards than the player's first major release. Yet that is still only a tangent as to why Topps was allowed to make these non-prospect cards prior to the season, or any official announcement of him being added to a ML roster.

Haven't we seen a few other aberrations from the stated policy before? I seem to recall a thread about this when discussing the Aaron Judge Topps Now first card.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Haven't we seen a few other aberrations from the stated policy before? I seem to recall a thread about this when discussing the Aaron Judge Topps Now first card.

The first Topps Now card with a RC logo was after his first major league game with the Yankees. Prior to that Judge had "Call Up" cards, which are considered prospect cards until they use the proper "RC" logo.

[Peter_Spaeth]

But didn't he have a 2016 card with an RC logo, and if so, how can he have official RCs in two different years.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This -- a 2016 Judge with an RC official designation.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2016-Topps-...p2047675.l2557

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

But didn't he have a 2016 card with an RC logo, and if so, how can he have official RCs in two different years.

There is an odd 2016 Card that was sent to Yankees Season Ticket holders. From what I can tell, though, is it was produced in 2016 and sent to the ticket holders through the 2017 season. Aaron Judge did play in 2016, though, so it isn't breaking the "RC" logo rule. I do believe it does still push the line though having it produced in 2016, and producing most of his RC in 2017.

That one still just seems borderline. Whereas the Ohtani cards seem like a blatant disregard to the rules based on a gamble (even if it did appear more like a sure thing a month ago).

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This -- a 2016 Judge with an RC official designation.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2016-Topps-...p2047675.l2557

Oh come on if you were going to show one you could I have used my ebay sold listing from this past weekend to drive people my way. haha

https://www.ebay.com/itm/32278912498...84.m1561.l2649

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

There is an odd 2016 Card that was sent to Yankees Season Ticket holders. From what I can tell, though, is it was produced in 2016 and sent to the ticket holders through the 2017 season. Aaron Judge did play in 2016, though, so it isn't breaking the "RC" logo rule. I do believe it does still push the line though having it produced in 2016, and producing most of his RC in 2017.

That one still just seems borderline. Whereas the Ohtani cards seem like a blatant disregard to the rules based on a gamble (even if it did appear more like a sure thing a month ago).

To my mind a guy cannot have official rookie cards in two different years, that makes no sense at all.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To my mind a guy cannot have official rookie cards in two different years, that makes no sense at all.

Agreed. Again from my research, though, I really think the card was made in 2016 but wasn't distributed until 2017. I could certainly be wrong, as this is only based on my questioning the sellers I was buying from. I think the card has a copyright of 2016, but maybe should be considered a 2017 card. I don't know if there is an "official" (loose term, I know) ruling on this card though.

This still feels like a side subject, though, because they at least waited until Judge had played a ML game. They didn't do that for Ohtani. They didn't even wait for him to make the team. Whereas Judge was playing for an ML team in 2016, but Topps waited until 2017 (with exception to the noted card above) before releasing "RC" cards and instead released only prospect/call-up cards in 2016.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I can only speculate that everyone assumes it's a foregone conclusion he makes the team? Dunno though, agree it isn't consistent.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I can only speculate that everyone assumes it's a foregone conclusion he makes the team? Dunno though, agree it isn't consistent.

I believe you are right. They made an assumption, but Ohtani's poor spring training may prove that assumption wrong. Then it could leave them having RC cards for a player that never had any right having the cards made.

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/a...art-in-minors/

[bn2cardz]

Peter I don't know why I didn't think of this before, but there is another player I saw recently with a "RC" designated card in 2017 product and 2018:

2018 Paul DeJong


2017 Paul DeJong (this isn't his only 2017 RC, but used to illustrate the point)



I do believe the 2018 silver pack may be an error, as his other 2018 cards don't have the RC logo, but still relevant to what you were pointing out earlier.

[darkhorse9]

Is there any relevance to the fact that none of the RC cards in question are base set cards?

Perhaps that's the loophole. Since they are special release or subset cards and not part of the official set Topps can "get away" with it.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by darkhorse9

Is there any relevance to the fact that none of the RC cards in question are base set cards?

Perhaps that's the loophole. Since they are special release or subset cards and not part of the official set Topps can "get away" with it.

Prospects are allowed to be a part of an insert set (this is how Bowman gets away with including so many prospects) but they still can't be designated as a RC.
The Topps Opening Day Ohtani card, however, is number 200 in the base set. Even the, heritage, though has the RC logo even though it isn't in the base set.

Also there is now going to be Gypsy Queen that will have Ohtani as card 89 in the base set.

As far as the Judge and DeJong, I believe those are mistakes. Whereas the Ohtani situation seems to be a blatant rule breaking that could be an issue if Ohtani doesn't make the roster for Opening Day.

I have asked the question on Twitter to Topps, MLB, and MLBPA. No one has responded and doubt they will.

[packs]

When did the 1964 Topps set come out? Piniella's first rookie was in the set but he didn't make his debut until September of that year.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by packs

When did the 1964 Topps set come out? Piniella's first rookie was in the set but he didn't make his debut until September of that year.

There are several cases of this prior to 2006. In 2006, though, MLB only gave license to Topps to make RC cards of players that had made the 25 man roster. This was to cut down on the prospect filled sets (Bowman now gets around this by calling the prospects an "insert" set, though most collectors buy it just for these cards). This is what caused the 2006 Alex Gordon Topps card to become a SP with variations made to remove Alex from the set.

[packs]

That Gordon card was part of the Topps series though, this Ohtani is part of Heritage. He's not featured in 2018 Topps Series I.

[Peter_Spaeth]

How cool would it be to make a card with this logo -- Japanese for rookie card.

ルーキーカード

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by packs

That Gordon card was part of the Topps series though, this Ohtani is part of Heritage. He's not featured in 2018 Topps Series I.

The rules weren't just made for the flagship set, it is across the board. Topps is not supposed to make cards for players until they are on the 25-man roster.

I have already previously posted this, but Ohtani is in Topps Opening day #200 and Gypsy Queen #89.

[Rich Klein]

I have seen a few players with the RC designation in 2 straight years. I think I know what that occurs

The rule when implemented says card companies (now just Topps) could use the RC designation for current year issues when the player debuts before September 1 (when the rosters are expanded). You are. of course, allowed to use the RC designation in the following year. Judge made his debut late in 2016 but before the 9.1 cut-off and as such the card referenced is fine to have the RC Logo. From the Ebay description: "To my knowledge the only existing judge 2016 card with the RC logo. This card was only released to Yankees season ticket license holders and not many have surfaced." If this was not pack issued, I'm fine with the 2017 cards having the RC logo.

Sometimes, not enough people are paying attention -- so I get why that occurs as well. The market will sort out the wrong RC's just as they did in 1987 with Mark McGwire and the 1985 Olympic card (Now accepted as his true RC)

And yes, that is the reason for the cut-out Alex Gordon cards. Dead on to remember that.

If Ohtani does not make the majors, then this is truly on MLB Properties and MLBPA for approving something by assuming facts not in evidence.

I think what occurred in 2007 with Daisuke was safer, have the cards prepped and the minute the season begins and he's on the opening day roster, go for the release of the RC's

Rich

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He has cards from Japan dating back I believe to 2013. Why anyone would pay these prices for what is essentially a 6th year card of him is beyond me.

+1. So far, he's been way over-hyped IMHO. Let's see some actual production,

Hi, Pete!

Larry

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by packs

When did the 1964 Topps set come out? Piniella's first rookie was in the set but he didn't make his debut until September of that year.

In those days -- Topps could make a card of anyone, anytime. They really did try to keep those cards to either current major leaguers or whom their scouts said were likely to be in the majors. Bot you could and did have cards of people who never made the majors. I like the use Archie Skeen from the 64 set as an example of the no major league experience.

Sometime around 1980 give or take, Topps began to only accept players on the 40-man roster to make cards of. The 1985 Olympic cards were an exception; however, Topps did not use any players who still had college eligibility left which is why there is no Barry Larkin for example in that set.

[SullyV]

It looks as if Ohtani had a fair outing and Scocia was pleased with what he saw. The expectation right now is that he will start the 3rd game of the season.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by SullyV

It looks as if Ohtani had a fair outing and Scocia was pleased with what he saw. The expectation right now is that he will start the 3rd game of the season.

He was pretty bad if you read the account of the game. A lot of spin going on there.

[packs]

The thing is it's hard to tell what you're getting during spring training. Tanaka's ERA is over 7, but I expect him to be just fine.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

The thing is it's hard to tell what you're getting during spring training. Tanaka's ERA is over 7, but I expect him to be just fine.

Yes, but Tanaka is an established major leaguer and probably has just been working on stuff. Ohtani has to prove himself and probably has been pitching as best he can.

[clydepepper]

Here's the short, but accurate reason why he has a Rookie Card:

$

[Rich Klein]

A quick point, if Ohtani plays in the majors (or possibly even be on the 25-man roster) before 9.1 he will have a legit 2018 Rookie Card this year.

While money is important, I believe if this rule gets flouted then Panini should start using official logos on their cards since no rule is sacred to MLBPA and MLB properties. Once these rules are no longer followed, then let Panini have even competition. (I understand the contracts, but this is making a point)

Rich

[packs]

Right now I would be pretty worried if I paid the bucks for the rookies. Some of his signed autos are going for crazy money. I don't have a crystal ball, but something tells me he lives up to his contract while shorting all the collectors. Don't forget, Ohtani is playing for the league minimum. If he's only a replacement level player I'd still be pretty happy if I were the Angels. But I wouldn't be happy if I bought one of these cards.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

A quick point, if Ohtani plays in the majors (or possibly even be on the 25-man roster) before 9.1 he will have a legit 2018 Rookie Card this year.

While money is important, I believe if this rule gets flouted then Panini should start using official logos on their cards since no rule is sacred to MLBPA and MLB properties. Once these rules are no longer followed, then let Panini have even competition. (I understand the contracts, but this is making a point)

Rich

Even if he is an official RC for the year, that doesn't condone the printing of cards prior to his first Official game is OK. The rules were already disregarded and and went unchecked. They have set a new precedent for producing cards. No longer does a prospect need to have played a game nor be on a roster, they just need to be popular and "too big to fail". Even Yu Darvish had to wait to have a RC card until after his first game just 6 years ago.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Even if he is an official RC for the year, that doesn't condone the printing of cards prior to his first Official game is OK. The rules were already disregarded and and went unchecked. They have set a new precedent for producing cards. No longer does a prospect need to have played a game nor be on a roster, they just need to be popular and "too big to fail". Even Yu Darvish had to wait to have a RC card until after his first game just 6 years ago.

Or maybe they wanted to capitalize before he did fail.

[Rich Klein]

Well he did play on opening day so at least that part of this discussion is now mute. The bigger issue will be if the player does not come up in the year

[Peter_Spaeth]

It looks like he has a 2017 card in an Angels uniform.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2017-TOPPS-...cAAOSwAy5aowA~