n172 question Tip O'Neill or Bill White

[prewinter]

As I continue to read about the n172 Old Judge set, I've come across a few mentions that card 356-2, identified as Tip O'Neill, is actually a photo of Bill White. Is this an accepted fact or a supposition? The mustache seems to be the same as in 356-3 and 356-4, but the chin looks different (to me) than in 356-7. And 356-2 through 356-6 all share one background/setting, while the others have a different background/setting.

I find this set fascinating, and combined with my interest in old St. Louis teams, I'm spending way too much time thinking about this. d

[Joe_G.]

Originally Posted by prewinter

As I continue to read about the n172 Old Judge set, I've come across a few mentions that card 356-2, identified as Tip O'Neill, is actually a photo of Bill White. Is this an accepted fact or a supposition? The mustache seems to be the same as in 356-3 and 356-4, but the chin looks different (to me) than in 356-7. And 356-2 through 356-6 all share one background/setting, while the others have a different background/setting.

I find this set fascinating, and combined with my interest in old St. Louis teams, I'm spending way too much time thinking about this. d

Hello Paul,

356-2 is O'Neill. O'Neill was photographed 3 times over the Goodwin run of cards, first as a Brown's Champ as clean shaven man, then a second time in 1888 with moustache (356-2 to 356-6), and a 3rd time in 1889 (356-7 to 356-12) again clean shaven. O'Neill was with St. Louis for all three photoshoots. Jay and I re-arranged the poses to group them in this fashion in the Book (this is explained in part in the O'Neill bio). Bill White was photographed in 1888 only with Louisville, a different looking uniform.

Where did you find reference to 356-2 being Bill White?

Happy Collecting!

[oldjudge]

In fact, in TSN they mention when O'Neill grew his moustache.

[prewinter]

I found two listings online that suggested the card was White, but I don't recall the exact auctions. Both were old. I ignored the first one until I found the second one. If I ever come across them again I'll post it here.

Thanks for the clarification!

[prewinter]

Here was one of the auctions:

https://baggersauctions.com/PDTL.jsp...B9E169FA57EE83

This auction is for a 1887 Old Judge N172 vintage tobacco baseball card of the St. Louis Browns Outfielder - Tip O'Neill. This vintage 19th century issue of Tip is actually a tougher error variation picturing Bill White stooping to field a grounder. The card is in nice collectible condition with a bold clear image with strong ...

The second place was actually Old Cardboard:
http://www.oldcardboard.com/ref/misl...cards-list.asp

[Joe_G.]

Hello Paul, good job digging that up, I'm not sure of the source.

In his 19th century volume, Lew Lipset wrote a paragraph on O'Neill but attributed all the poses to O'Neill. During research for the OJ Book Jay unearthed the information he referenced from TSN and opted to re-arrange all the poses to group them in chronological order. I would be curious to learn of the origins that suggest some O'Neill poses are Bill White.