The final straw(s)

[brooklynbaseball]

It's been close to 30 years and over six figures in "investments" in this cesspool of a hobby. I have not "seen it all", but I have seen enough to convince me that there is no joy left in it. I and my family have been attacked by a forger who I exposed, I have been the victim of fraud (luckily I found the piece of shit) and I have been the purchaser of goods that were not authentic. I have used ebay, and a few different auction houses to sell off my duplicate goods, but now ebay does not seem to care about the plethora of obvious fakes that pollute their listings. And as I write this, I am in the midst of dealing with an auction house that is trying to charge me over fifteen dollars to ship a single postcard, that is valued at less than $100, after collecting a 20% commission for allowing me to bid on their item. I used to enjoy the thrill of the auction process, the nervous feeling in my gut as the clock was winding down, the anticipation of returning home to find the delivery of my newest treasure. Now however, the blatant greed of this "industry" has soured me to the point that I rarely look at my collection anymore. What makes it even worse, I have two sons, and I had always looked forward to gifting each of them with an equal share of my signed collection, now I feel as if I would be subjecting them to a nightmare of greed and fraud. I am a proud NYer, it takes a lot to make me "give up", but the white flag is going up, I've had it...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by brooklynbaseball

It's been close to 30 years and over six figures in "investments" in this cesspool of a hobby. I have not "seen it all", but I have seen enough to convince me that there is no joy left in it. I and my family have been attacked by a forger who I exposed, I have been the victim of fraud (luckily I found the piece of shit) and I have been the purchaser of goods that were not authentic. I have used ebay, and a few different auction houses to sell off my duplicate goods, but now ebay does not seem to care about the plethora of obvious fakes that pollute their listings. And as I write this, I am in the midst of dealing with an auction house that is trying to charge me over fifteen dollars to ship a single postcard, that is valued at less than $100, after collecting a 20% commission for allowing me to bid on their item. I used to enjoy the thrill of the auction process, the nervous feeling in my gut as the clock was winding down, the anticipation of returning home to find the delivery of my newest treasure. Now however, the blatant greed of this "industry" has soured me to the point that I rarely look at my collection anymore. What makes it even worse, I have two sons, and I had always looked forward to gifting each of them with an equal share of my signed collection, now I feel as if I would be subjecting them to a nightmare of greed and fraud. I am a proud NYer, it takes a lot to make me "give up", but the white flag is going up, I've had it...

I don't think you are the only one with these sentiments. What I can say is that there is still joy in collecting for many collectors, including myself. It's all a matter of perspective. Just this morning I was informed of some ebay things that will definitely help in the sports-card fraud dept on their site. I can't say too much about it but suffice it to say there are things being done, numerous things, to help clean up the hobby. It is no different than any other situation with large amounts of money in an unregulated (for the most part) industry. It is always caveat emptor and sometimes the "emptor" can be overwhelming.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by brooklynbaseball

It's been close to 30 years and over six figures in "investments" in this cesspool of a hobby. I have not "seen it all", but I have seen enough to convince me that there is no joy left in it. I and my family have been attacked by a forger who I exposed, I have been the victim of fraud (luckily I found the piece of shit) and I have been the purchaser of goods that were not authentic. I have used ebay, and a few different auction houses to sell off my duplicate goods, but now ebay does not seem to care about the plethora of obvious fakes that pollute their listings. And as I write this, I am in the midst of dealing with an auction house that is trying to charge me over fifteen dollars to ship a single postcard, that is valued at less than $100, after collecting a 20% commission for allowing me to bid on their item. I used to enjoy the thrill of the auction process, the nervous feeling in my gut as the clock was winding down, the anticipation of returning home to find the delivery of my newest treasure. Now however, the blatant greed of this "industry" has soured me to the point that I rarely look at my collection anymore. What makes it even worse, I have two sons, and I had always looked forward to gifting each of them with an equal share of my signed collection, now I feel as if I would be subjecting them to a nightmare of greed and fraud. I am a proud NYer, it takes a lot to make me "give up", but the white flag is going up, I've had it...

You make all valid points. However, many have said this and say 'they are done with hobby' then in a short while they are back. It happens so often I have talked about starting a list. I wonder what the draw to come back to hobby is after all those true things you have said.

[brooklynbaseball]

I am sure that others have stated what I have, the difference with me is simple. I find no joy in being taken advantage of, I find no joy in watching people lose their money to forgers, I find no joy in watching auction houses with no conscience gouge their customers, and most important to me, I just find no joy in this den of thieves and greedy scumbags. I have nothing but respect for those who choose to continue to try to clean up this hobby, but at some point you need to realize it's a losing battle. I'm at the age where I don't need anything else to make me frustrated, angry, or disappointed. I have the nightly news for that... This community on Net54 was (is) one of the only worthwhile parts of the collecting community, I wish you all the best in your pursuits...

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by brooklynbaseball

I am sure that others have stated what I have, the difference with me is simple. I find no joy in being taken advantage of, I find no joy in watching people lose their money to forgers, I find no joy in watching auction houses with no conscience gouge their customers, and most important to me, I just find no joy in this den of thieves and greedy scumbags. I have nothing but respect for those who choose to continue to try to clean up this hobby, but at some point you need to realize it's a losing battle. I'm at the age where I don't need anything else to make me frustrated, angry, or disappointed. I have the nightly news for that... This community on Net54 was (is) one of the only worthwhile parts of the collecting community, I wish you all the best in your pursuits...

Most of the hobby is at that age Anyway good luck to you. If you change your mind and you are back that would be great for the hobby

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by brooklynbaseball

I am sure that others have stated what I have, the difference with me is simple. I find no joy in being taken advantage of, I find no joy in watching people lose their money to forgers, I find no joy in watching auction houses with no conscience gouge their customers, and most important to me, I just find no joy in this den of thieves and greedy scumbags. I have nothing but respect for those who choose to continue to try to clean up this hobby, but at some point you need to realize it's a losing battle. I'm at the age where I don't need anything else to make me frustrated, angry, or disappointed. I have the nightly news for that... This community on Net54 was (is) one of the only worthwhile parts of the collecting community, I wish you all the best in your pursuits...

Before you unload your collection try taking a break. Put all you stuff away in a safe place and just forget about it.

I felt the same way several years ago and took a few year break and now enjoy collecting a lot more. I am mainly a card collector but it is just as bad as the auto/memorabilia side of collecting.

If you do decide to return make a list of the people you will not do business with for whatever reason(s) you have. Stick to that list and do not buy from them because buying from the scum just enables them to keep on going. At this time my list of scum is about as big as the list of people I will buy from.

[Hankphenom]

Wow, you must have had a lot of really bad luck in your hobby endeavors! As someone else commented, yes, there are bad guys, but in what area of your life is that not the case? And we've all had bad experiences, but I would put my ratio of good experiences to bad at a minimum of 10 to 1, and I would say the same about the people involved. You have to be smart and and you have to be careful, sure, but a "cesspool" of "thieves and scumbags?"--no. It's not perfect, but it's hardly that.

[silvor]

Originally Posted by brooklynbaseball

It's been close to 30 years and over six figures in "investments" in this cesspool of a hobby. I have not "seen it all", but I have seen enough to convince me that there is no joy left in it. I and my family have been attacked by a forger who I exposed, I have been the victim of fraud (luckily I found the piece of shit) and I have been the purchaser of goods that were not authentic. I have used ebay, and a few different auction houses to sell off my duplicate goods, but now ebay does not seem to care about the plethora of obvious fakes that pollute their listings. And as I write this, I am in the midst of dealing with an auction house that is trying to charge me over fifteen dollars to ship a single postcard, that is valued at less than $100, after collecting a 20% commission for allowing me to bid on their item. I used to enjoy the thrill of the auction process, the nervous feeling in my gut as the clock was winding down, the anticipation of returning home to find the delivery of my newest treasure. Now however, the blatant greed of this "industry" has soured me to the point that I rarely look at my collection anymore. What makes it even worse, I have two sons, and I had always looked forward to gifting each of them with an equal share of my signed collection, now I feel as if I would be subjecting them to a nightmare of greed and fraud. I am a proud NYer, it takes a lot to make me "give up", but the white flag is going up, I've had it...

For better or worse, other hobbies are the same. Fake products, A holes, egos, people just trying to take your money. I've been through or am involved in several hobbies/pursuits and realized the best thing for me is to keep an arms distance at all times. Find the parts that are enjoyable and just stick with those and don't put too much time or money into it.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

I agree with shelving the collection and taking a rest.

From what I recall, you have many higher-ticket HOF items. Perhaps a change of focus might breathe some positive air into your hobby? My guess is you're a Dodger fan--if so, there are countless interesting players from Brooklyn we've all spent years reading about. They aren't HOFers and many aren't household names, but they've always been incredibly fun to collect. I'm not talking of the mass-produced, multi-signed Ebbets Field 16X20's signed by 95 second string Dodgers or those Branca/Thomson "FrankenJerseys"! I've purchased unique Billy Cox items in the past and have always enjoyed that. The list of colorful characters is too numerous to mention in full. There's the sad and inexplicable case of Len Koenecke, or how about Hugh Casey, who only took a toothbrush with him on road trips, buying all his clothes as he needed them? And of course, the risk of forgeries with players such as these is significantly reduced. Secretarial versions? Sure, but the collector and industry knowledge regarding Dodger clubhouse signatures makes it much easier than wading through a sea of Sharpie-signed Mantles, Williams and DiMaggios.

[alifaxwa2]

My kid is 7. I am doing everything I can to keep him away from this hobby. Instead of bringing him into it, I am embracing everyone of his little kid obsessions so we can do those together, not this.

[keithsky]

As Ebay is a big company and alot of collectors go there for there items they could make a big difference in the hobby by policing there site for fraud but they refuse to do it because of money in my opinion. This has been beaten to death about Ebay not caring and until they do care about it nothing will change with the hobby. When scumbags find out there stuff is fake they go to Ebay so just think if Ebay didn't take their stuff either how much of the bad stuff will be out of the hobby. At least it's a starting point.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by brooklynbaseball

It's been close to 30 years and over six figures in "investments" in this cesspool of a hobby. I have not "seen it all", but I have seen enough to convince me that there is no joy left in it. I and my family have been attacked by a forger who I exposed, I have been the victim of fraud (luckily I found the piece of shit) and I have been the purchaser of goods that were not authentic. I have used ebay, and a few different auction houses to sell off my duplicate goods, but now ebay does not seem to care about the plethora of obvious fakes that pollute their listings. And as I write this, I am in the midst of dealing with an auction house that is trying to charge me over fifteen dollars to ship a single postcard, that is valued at less than $100, after collecting a 20% commission for allowing me to bid on their item. I used to enjoy the thrill of the auction process, the nervous feeling in my gut as the clock was winding down, the anticipation of returning home to find the delivery of my newest treasure. Now however, the blatant greed of this "industry" has soured me to the point that I rarely look at my collection anymore. What makes it even worse, I have two sons, and I had always looked forward to gifting each of them with an equal share of my signed collection, now I feel as if I would be subjecting them to a nightmare of greed and fraud. I am a proud NYer, it takes a lot to make me "give up", but the white flag is going up, I've had it...

I know exactly how you feel, Sir.

I don't think anyone has tracked and followed the forgery industry more than I, and every day it becomes increasingly frustrating watching the scammers and the Florida Ring continue to mass-produce forgeries of Mantle, DiMaggio, Williams, Mays, Koufax, etc.

Ebay, for one, has become an enabler. When the EMR team (which was doing a helluva job) was jettisoned, that was when Mr. Florida went into Mass-Produce Mode.

There's a ring of approximately two dozen (they could be just one or two people) Florida sellers that are literally making a killing selling forgeries day-in and day-out.

These are people with no conscience.

There are days (and Steve Zarelli will confirm this) when I just want to quit exposing sellers of forgeries....I quit for a few days, and then I pick up where I left off.

My collection isn't huge at all, but the memorabilia and autographs I do own, I enjoy, and I'll be damned if I will allow them to push me out of the hobby.

And I will add one more comment....

The so-called Forensic Authenticators who have helped tremendously in perpetrating this mess......I don't want them to rot in hell....I want them to suffer indefinitely in hell.

[brooklynbaseball]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Wow, you must have had a lot of really bad luck in your hobby endeavors! As someone else commented, yes, there are bad guys, but in what area of your life is that not the case? And we've all had bad experiences, but I would put my ratio of good experiences to bad at a minimum of 10 to 1, and I would say the same about the people involved. You have to be smart and and you have to be careful, sure, but a "cesspool" of "thieves and scumbags?"--no. It's not perfect, but it's hardly that.

Wow- "bad luck" is not a relative term here. I don't know what world you live in, but in mine, almost all areas of my life are devoid of "bad guys" because I am smart enough to keep them out of my life. If you disagree with my analogy, fine, but if you think this hobby is not polluted, you are blind.

[tazdmb]

Well if you are start selling, please hit me up with a PM with what is available.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by tazdmb

Well if you are start selling, please hit me up with a PM with what is available.

Issue will be if selling at 'get out of the hobby prices' or 'make me get out of the hobby prices'

[tazdmb]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Issue will be if selling at 'get out of the hobby prices' or 'make me get out of the hobby prices'

I have made many purchases from this board from Bucky Harris and Earle Combs to George Wright, Sam Thompson and Effa Manley and have always been fair and many times paid asking price as I am collector-not a dealer. Can give plenty of references if needed, but hopefully my reputation precedes me here. That being said, I am not going to run out and pay above market value unless item is truly unique to me.

[theshleps]

I'd be happy to buy too if I need something

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by brooklynbaseball

Wow- "bad luck" is not a relative term here. I don't know what world you live in, but in mine, almost all areas of my life are devoid of "bad guys" because I am smart enough to keep them out of my life. If you disagree with my analogy, fine, but if you think this hobby is not polluted, you are blind.

I've been in the hobby for a long time and from all angles. I know the good and the bad, and there's a lot of both. I just disagree with your general assessment and your adjectives, that's all. Maybe you haven't been as smart as you think.

[alexanderautographs]

How sad. Much as I hate being tarred as one of those "greedy auctioneers", you need to take a couple of things into consideration:

- Auctions compete fiercely for material! Over the years, competition between auctioneers has caused consignment rates to go down...and forced buyer premiums up. So, you have to factor in that added cost when you bid.
- Expenses are way up. I am amazed that guys like REA can afford to publish and mail such monster catalogs! Never mind labor, rent, shipping. That postcard sent by certified mail costs about six bucks, so there you're being stuck.
- eBay is a den of thieves and cheapskates. Buy at reputable auctions, also invaluable.com and liveauctioneers.com.

Finally, I was privileged to have known Charles Hamilton, dean of autograph auctioneers and authentications. He wrote (paraphrased): "How boring this pursuit would be if not for the occasional fraud and forgery to add spice to the chase!"

[HexsHeroes]

. . .

I would be grateful if you would add me to the (growing) list of interested,
potential Net54 buyers of some of your collection's autographs.
My collection is at a point where purchase of one "want list" item qualifies for
consideration as a "great year", and any more than that counts as "too good
to be true".

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by alexanderautographs

Buy at reputable auctions, also invaluable.com and liveauctioneers.com.

Really? It didn't take long to find a few Mantle forgeries on those sites.


https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item...hed-photograph


https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item...-signed-plaque


https://www.invaluable.com/auction-l...0-c-c0848ec824

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by HexsHeroes

. . .

I would be grateful if you would add me to the (growing) list of interested,
potential Net54 buyers of some of your collection's autographs.
My collection is at a point where purchase of one "want list" item qualifies for
consideration as a "great year", and any more than that counts as "too good
to be true".

Please add me to this list as well. I have a short want list, but you never know...

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Really?


https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item...hed-photograph


https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item...-signed-plaque


https://www.invaluable.com/auction-l...0-c-c0848ec824

Those are scary.

Live Auctioneers/Invaluable/Proxibid may not be quite the cesspool that Ebay is for these things...but the fakes do make pretty regular appearances.

Tom C

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Those are scary.

Live Auctioneers/Invaluable/Proxibid may not be quite the cesspool that Ebay is for these things...but the fakes do make pretty regular appearances.

Tom C

Yes they do, Tom.

Obvious forgeries, too.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Really? It didn't take long to find a few Mantle forgeries on those sites.


https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item...hed-photograph


https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item...-signed-plaque


https://www.invaluable.com/auction-l...0-c-c0848ec824

I also noticed on those auction sites, the Buyer's Premium can range anywhere from 27% to 33%. Is that normal?

[tazdmb]

Originally Posted by alexanderautographs

How sad. Much as I hate being tarred as one of those "greedy auctioneers"

Finally, I was privileged to have known Charles Hamilton, dean of autograph auctioneers and authentications. He wrote (paraphrased): "How boring this pursuit would be if not for the occasional fraud and forgery to add spice to the chase!"

While I agree you have to be "Greedy" to be an auctioneer as you eat what you kill. That being said, when I consign things to auction, I personally feel it is obnoxious to have to pay a consignor fee to an auction fee that is already making 20% on the back-end. The variable costs to add my stuff is minimal and does not justify 20%, knowing that the item will sell for less than FMV as the buyer will consider the juice before making a bid.

I much rather buy and sell things here at close to FMV or consign to auction houses with minimal/no consignment fee.

As for Hamilton's quote, i think we are way past "occasional".

[brooklynbaseball]

Originally Posted by tazdmb

While I agree you have to be "Greedy" to be an auctioneer as you eat what you kill. That being said, when I consign things to auction, I personally feel it is obnoxious to have to pay a consignor fee to an auction fee that is already making 20% on the back-end. The variable costs to add my stuff is minimal and does not justify 20%, knowing that the item will sell for less than FMV as the buyer will consider the juice before making a bid.

I much rather buy and sell things here at close to FMV or consign to auction houses with minimal/no consignment fee.

As for Hamilton's quote, i think we are way past "occasional".

And not to mention, on top of the buyers premium, many auction houses pad the shipping costs by 2 or 3 times. I understand the costs associated with running an auction, printing catalogues, labor costs etc, but blatant gouging to get every last cent out of a buyer is obscene.

[Hankphenom]

Seems to me that it's been about 15 years since anyone buying an autograph without a legit TPA that wasn't more or less self-authenticating should be well aware of the risk they're taking. On the selling side, even with the fees involved, desirable autographs should do very well over their value just a few years ago. The proliferation of reputable authentication services and auction houses and other sales venues (Net54 BST!) have improved the hobby greatly from the "wild west" days. Problems, sure, but in general I'd say the hobby is getting better, not worse.

[brooklynbaseball]

For those who have expressed interest in my collection, I am going to attempt to sell my full (up until the past couple of years) signed plaque set together as one unit. I realize that most would rather "chase" the set slowly, but as I have been amassing the set for so long, I would rather try to keep it together. Almost every card is slabbed, those that aren't (maybe 5%) have stickers from TriStar, Mab, or the like. I additionally have hundreds of duplicates, both in raw and slabbed form. I also would like to attempt to sell my full Perez Steele hof set (sans Satchel Paige, which I sold, expecting to purchase a better quality one) as one lot also. All of the "higher ticket" cards have been authenticated, and while the signed cards are not 100% of the same printed set, all of the original cards are included. I also have a 500 home run signed baseball set, Including Ruth, Ott, and Foxx, excluding Pujols, Ortiz, and maybe one or two others. That set I will probably break up. The rest of my "stuff", includes many signed Mickey Mantle items, signed photos affixed to plaques (with ORIGINAL Goldin coa's), baseballs, and probably another closet full of items that I have not touched since Superstorm Sandy hit here (yes, I lost quite a bit there too). I will be happy to provide a detailed list to anyone that would like to look my inventory over, but it will most likely take me a couple of weeks to complete a spreadsheet, scan, photograph, and retrieve items from safekeeping. I do list some items on ebay pretty regularly, and the asking prices are often high, but I am always willing to negotiate off of those listings. I do appreciate the input and comments (with one noticeable exception), and to Mr Williams, Richard Simon and those of you on here who I have had the pleasure of exchanging correspondence over the years, your work educating the community is one of the few things I can look back on with a smile. From personal experience, I know that there are those that will come after you for calling them out. You provide a service here, and while I am unsure of the long term future of the signed memorabilia industry, I am appreciative for the work you have done...

[alexanderautographs]

Originally Posted by tazdmb

While I agree you have to be "Greedy" to be an auctioneer as you eat what you kill. That being said, when I consign things to auction, I personally feel it is obnoxious to have to pay a consignor fee to an auction fee that is already making 20% on the back-end. The variable costs to add my stuff is minimal and does not justify 20%, knowing that the item will sell for less than FMV as the buyer will consider the juice before making a bid.

I much rather buy and sell things here at close to FMV or consign to auction houses with minimal/no consignment fee.

As for Hamilton's quote, i think we are way past "occasional".

Thanks for your input. Remember that in the good old days, consignment rates were 10% and the BP was perhaps 10-15%. That was twenty years ago. Now, with prices for AVERAGE material really pretty much the same, the net dollars the auctioneer brings in are relatively unchanged. Yes, it's true. And for a really large collection, some auctioneer charges the seller a 5%, 0%, or even offers a negative commission. At the end of the day, it's still about 20-25%. Also- factor in the fact that greedy proxy bidding sites whack the auctioneer for 5%, credit card companies get 2.5%, Paypal the same.

Believe me, if you think the average auctioneer drives a Rolls, you're way wrong. We do this for the same reason you do - we love the material.

[alexanderautographs]

Really suggest you find an an on-line auctioneer with access to invaluable and liveauctioneers, work hard for a low rate, reserve with no buy-in fee, and watch him. Auctioneers have access to markets you can't imagine, and actually earn their fees.

[alexanderautographs]

Originally Posted by brooklynbaseball

And not to mention, on top of the buyers premium, many auction houses pad the shipping costs by 2 or 3 times. I understand the costs associated with running an auction, printing catalogues, labor costs etc, but blatant gouging to get every last cent out of a buyer is obscene.

It's an old auction game...you never know the shipping until you get the bill! Christie's London once whacked me for $320 to send a Beatles signed album page. True story. Often you can persuade them to use your own Fedex number, if you have one, and waive all claims.