Scary future of our hobby

[tazdmb]

So, it looks like the new fad is for buying multi signed historic banquets/documents. Cutting up and ERASING blemishes and flipping for a Huge profit. This beautiful banquet menu was recently sold for about $4,500. The buyer cut it up (I understand it is his right) and then "Cleaned up" the markings from the Ruth by erasing the above signature going through the "R" in Ruth. Notice the signiture above Ruth's is no longer evidence in the cut. He later resubmitted to JSA and it came back authentic-no mention of altering. Now he is "Razzing" (raffling) , with no mention of the alteration.

[bn2cardz]

That is very sad. That was a museum piece turned into a "run of the mill" cut auto.

[tazdmb]

The "cut" part has been happening for a while, but the altering/erasing part is new to me.

[ronniehatesjazz]

Very sad

[David Atkatz]

F*^%ing Jimmy. Could it be more obvious that that cut has been altered?

[yanksfan09]

That's terrible, quite disgusting really. A beautiful piece of history with Ruth and Gehrig marking a special occasion, many other tough signatures too. All together on a beautiful piece, now not only is the Ruth signature tainted by the undisclosed alteration, the rest of the piece is destroyed and probably chopped up into 20 or so pieces. Just gross. That piece would look gorgeous framed up with a photo of Ruth and Gehrig and some other Yankees maybe now its just more generic "cuts".

[Klrdds]

Jimmy "Anything For A Buck " Spence strikes again !
The item is so obviously altered and no mention of it.
Maybe it won't sell .

[tazdmb]

Originally Posted by Klrdds

Jimmy "Anything For A Buck " Spence strikes again !
The item is so obviously altered and no mention of it.
Maybe it won't sell .

No, it is going to sell for about $4,100. You should join Autographs 101 on facebook. . But the amount of "razzes" (raffles) they have is crazy. There has to be over 10K members on there and each one could care less about a real autograph, as long as it is authenticated. The only good thing is you can see that there are a lot of "young kids" that still care about autographs, as opposed to say-Stamps.

[yanks12025]

Originally Posted by tazdmb

No, it is going to sell for about $4,100. You should join Autographs 101 on facebook. Hustling and selling autographs for inflated prices is huge there. You can hear the drool every time a Mantle or Ruth changes hands for inflated prices. But the amount of "razzes" (raffles) they have is crazy. There has to be over 10K members on there and each one could care less about a real autograph, as long as it is authenticated. The only good thing is you can see that there are a lot of "young kids" that still care about autographs, as opposed to say-Stamps.

The raffles are on a different FB page then 101

[Big Six]

Horrible. That said, why the awful cut so close to the "R" in Ruth...if they were erasing the extraneous ink, could have done a better cut. Yuck...not the Ruth I'd want in my collection.


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[Gary Dunaier]

Originally Posted by tazdmb

The only good thing is you can see that there are a lot of "young kids" that still care about autographs, as opposed to say-Stamps.

Why did you have to knock another hobby? You could have just as easily said 'The only good thing is you can see that there are a lot of "young kids" that still care about autographs,' left it at that, and still made your point.

Yes, I collect stamps. That may give me more of a reason to comment, but it doesn't make my comment any less valid.

[tazdmb]

Originally Posted by Gary Dunaier

Why did you have to knock another hobby?

Not a knock, but an honest opinion from a son of a prominent stamp collector. Show me a site that has over 10,000 stamp collectors under 25 years old. I know this is changing subjects but you must admit that average age of a stamp collector is getting older every year.

[Gary Dunaier]

Originally Posted by tazdmb

Not a knock, but an honest opinion from a son of a prominent stamp collector. Show me a site that has over 10,000 stamp collectors under 25 years old. I know this is changing subjects but you must admit that average age of a stamp collector is getting older every year.

Okay, but still... it's never a good idea to put down someone else's hobby, especially when it's done as an attempt to boost one's own hobby.

Stamp collectors are, indeed, concerned about how to attract more young people into the fold. In fact, a few years ago a prominent stamp collecting writer wrote a piece expressing those concerns, and he said something along the lines of - and I'm paraphrasing, I don't remember the exact quote - he said something along the lines of 'We've got to show the kids who collect baseball cards the error of their ways and get them to collect stamps instead.' I wrote a letter to the editor, which I think was published, saying that the guy should have known better, and that you'll never get someone interested in one hobby by talking s*** about another.

"My hobby is better than your hobby!" has yet to convince anyone to convert to "my" hobby, whatever that hobby is.

(Personal note to tazdmb: I didn't mention the name of the writer in the above comment because it wouldn't mean anything to those not in the hobby, but since you're the son of a prominent stamp collector, you may recognize the name. The writer whose quote I paraphrased was John Hotchner.)

[tazdmb]

My apologies again, I have already been threatened by the seller of the cut originally posted so I have cleaned up some of my posts in this thread. But I refused to take my OP down and am letting the facts speak for themselves. I am sure the seller is reading this and if you are-I stand by my opinion, especially after you admit the "signature lapping the Ruth was taken out"

[Stampsfan]

Wow, what a "great" idea. Next thing you may see is the card companies taking a vintage jersey or a full bat, cutting it up, and putting pieces of them onto trading cards.


Thinking more on that, nah... that'll never work. It's too stupid to contemplate.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by tazdmb

My apologies again, I have already been threatened by the seller of the cut originally posted so I have cleaned up some of my posts in this thread. But I refused to take my OP down and am letting the facts speak for themselves. I am sure the seller is reading this and if you are-I stand by my opinion, especially after you admit the "signature lapping the Ruth was taken out"

Bully for you. Seller sounds like a douche canoe (To resurrect an expression from one of the other members from Texas, I believe.)

[Klrdds]

Why would the seller threaten you and in what manner was the threat ? If you don't mind me asking.
IMO you only voiced an honest non-threatening opinion based upon your experience and taste of his ugly and defaced and over -hyped item that he was selling.

[tazdmb]

Originally Posted by Klrdds

Why would the seller threaten you and in what manner was the threat ? If you don't mind me asking.

He claims that I am "maliciously trying to corrupt a sales and (I am) attacking him." FTR-I never attacked this guy personally and never met him. As for maliciously trying to corrupt a sale, I never made a public facebook post on this and if anyone was being malicious, it was him admitting that "the signature lapping the Ruth was taken out" and not admitting to it to potential buyers-or JSA for that matter.

The threats:

"If you continue to give me issues I will make sure you get them in return"
"Keep running your mouth. I'm watching keep it up"
"I will show Jimmy how you are bashing his Company" (I did admit JSA would certify anything for the right amount of $$)
When I mentioned that I will see Jimmy at the National
"Good I'll be there also. You can run your mouth to my face"
"I'll let you know exactly where I'll be so you can come by"

After all of this, I even OFFERED to meet him at JSA with my facts and PAY/REIMBURSE him the costs for the certification for Ruth if Jimmy admits it was not altered. But, that was not good enough. Instead he wants me to pay him for the "headaches (I am) causing him over a certified item" and that "I have no idea what I am talking about"

FTR-I never once posted a public opinion on FB. So obviously, a member here tipped him off and I assumed he joined to see the pictures. I invite this person (I will not name) or his associates to come on here and refute my claim that this signature was altered.

[Klrdds]

Sounds like the guy has issues with being told the truth and not wanting to face the truth about his item and the cert from Jimmy "Anything for A Buck " Spence .
I don't know a collector who would want this item in his collection , unless he just wants a Ruth autograph and doesn't care what it is or looks like . If it goes as high as predicted in this thread the buyer IMO will never recoup his money. There are far better pieces out there of Ruth for less money if it again goes as high as predicted .
PS if you need a bodyguard for The National ....I know people!!!!

[tazdmb]

Just got banned from 101

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by tazdmb

He claims that I am "maliciously trying to corrupt a sales and (I am) attacking him." FTR-I never attacked this guy personally and never met him. As for maliciously trying to corrupt a sale, I never made a public facebook post on this and if anyone was being malicious, it was him admitting that "the signature lapping the Ruth was taken out" and not admitting to it to potential buyers-or JSA for that matter.

The threats:

"If you continue to give me issues I will make sure you get them in return"
"Keep running your mouth. I'm watching keep it up"
"I will show Jimmy how you are bashing his Company" (I did admit JSA would certify anything for the right amount of $$)
When I mentioned that I will see Jimmy at the National
"Good I'll be there also. You can run your mouth to my face"
"I'll let you know exactly where I'll be so you can come by"

After all of this, I even OFFERED to meet him at JSA with my facts and PAY/REIMBURSE him the costs for the certification for Ruth if Jimmy admits it was not altered. But, that was not good enough. Instead he wants me to pay him for the "headaches (I am) causing him over a certified item" and that "I have no idea what I am talking about"

FTR-I never once posted a public opinion on FB. So obviously, a member here tipped him off and I assumed he joined to see the pictures. I invite this person (I will not name) or his associates to come on here and refute my claim that this signature was altered.

corrupt a sale? I thought it was a raffle....I think this guy should respect our opinions that he made a beautiful piece look like crap. Even matted that thing is hideous. An awful example to fill a collection void of someone like Babe....

An awful way to make a buck!

[Michael B]

I would not worry about finding him at The National. He will be easy to spot. What is 101 by the way?

[tazdmb]

Autograph 101 is a 11K community of autograph chasers (mostly) on Facebook. They live by communist rule it appears since as soon as you question something they immediately expel you. PS-I CHALLENGE! the person here who reported me to them to speak up! You obviously come on here to seek our community knowledge for your benefit the troll us behind our back. I doubt (know) Leon would ever kick you off of here for stating facts.

[Mr. Zipper]

Interesting how the "scary future of the hobby" title has taken a double meaning with the latest twist.

From the mercenary defacing of vintage autographs... to sociopathic trolling behavior from a "dealer of tomorrow."

Shameful.

[Klrdds]

Originally Posted by tazdmb

Autograph 101 is a 11K community of autograph chasers (mostly) on Facebook. They live by communist rule it appears since as soon as you question something they immediately expel you. PS-I CHALLENGE! the person here who reported me to them to speak up! You obviously come on here to seek our community knowledge for your benefit the troll us behind our back. I doubt (know) Leon would ever kick you off of here for stating facts.

Taz I personally doubt the spineless troll who reported you to the 101 community will ever ever take your challenge and admit to it privately or publicly . He will hide behind his anonymity and probably do it again . But let's face it that seller doesn't want to hear anything negative about that beautiful Ruth menu that he deliberately ruined to create an ugly piece of crap to sell, excuse me I mean Raffle to some sucker because he can't handle the truth about his item !!!
I respect you for bringing it to this thread .
PS I can get you a deal on a Kevlar vest for you to take with you to The National , but my bet is that he will do nothing even if you bump into him .

[tazdmb]

Thanks for the offers, after everything he said to me, I still offered to meet him at the National and call his bluff-yet he backed down. I found out that he got others to lie for him in order to get me kicked off. I don't mind someone having a different opinion, but being lied about raises the stakes.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Gary Dunaier

Okay, but still... it's never a good idea to put down someone else's hobby, especially when it's done as an attempt to boost one's own hobby.

Stamp collectors are, indeed, concerned about how to attract more young people into the fold. In fact, a few years ago a prominent stamp collecting writer wrote a piece expressing those concerns, and he said something along the lines of - and I'm paraphrasing, I don't remember the exact quote - he said something along the lines of 'We've got to show the kids who collect baseball cards the error of their ways and get them to collect stamps instead.' I wrote a letter to the editor, which I think was published, saying that the guy should have known better, and that you'll never get someone interested in one hobby by talking s*** about another.

"My hobby is better than your hobby!" has yet to convince anyone to convert to "my" hobby, whatever that hobby is.

(Personal note to tazdmb: I didn't mention the name of the writer in the above comment because it wouldn't mean anything to those not in the hobby, but since you're the son of a prominent stamp collector, you may recognize the name. The writer whose quote I paraphrased was John Hotchner.)

The statement didn't come across to me as putting down stamp collecting, but pointing out a reality. I collect postcards and go to the local postcard/paper show in Omaha twice a year. I'm 50 and I can assure you that throughout the day I am almost always the youngest person in the hall. The dealers almost universally appear to be of retirement age or older. I don't know if the trend can be reversed, I fear that it can not.

[tazdmb]

I wrote JSA as to what happened, expecting either the blow off or Boiler Plate answer. I must admit I received the nicest letter from their Office Manager, Jackie Thomas. She explained everything to me and agreed that while she did not believe the signature was altered (we agree to disagree) that information about the signature removal should have been disclosed to any buyer. She, personally, considered altering as no "patching or tracing" was done to the signature itself. Additionally, she invited me to meet with her at the National to discuss the matter further, which I am considering.

So for all the bashing we do for the TPAs, I think we should also recognize the good also. Jackie, when it comes to customer service, is outstanding.

[7nohitter]

Taz,

Great job by you! Does the Rube who challenged you have an opinion on the conversation with Jackie? Hmmmmmm.....

[tazdmb]

Originally Posted by 7nohitter

Taz,

Great job by you! Does the Rube who challenged you have an opinion on the conversation with Jackie? Hmmmmmm.....

I have no idea. If you read my other thread regarding the National, JSA is going to change their COA, that is one point for the good guys. The "Rube" knows of this conversation and I am sure that person will read this thread, since they banned me from their group after my last post. However, they quietly refuse to post here and prefer living in shadows. JSA knows the group of people who submitted the Ruth and they have officially been placed on their radar to watch for additional altering, so we will see what happens.

[chaddurbin]

Autograph 101 is the worst. Half the stuff up there are fake, half the people there are clueless. I disagree with the notion they care about the hobby, they just care about how much money they can get for the sig...real or fake be damn.

[TCMA]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

Autograph 101 is the worst.

And let's not forget about the lawsuit revolving around members of that community. It's amazing that anyone has stuck around in that group after this:

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...uge-penalties/




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[thenavarro]

I enjoy Autographs 101. Like most other groups, including this one, has a few dumbasses, multiple entertaining and knowledgeable peeps, and a lot that fall in between those extremes.

[tazdmb]

I enjoyed it also, partially for all the fakes veing sold, until I called out an altered Ruth signature that was being sold. JSA, who even certed the cut, agreed it was altered after bringing it to their attention. BOOM, immediatly banned after starting this thread for noting the facts (not opinions, facts) of the signature.

That is what is wrong with teenagers/20 year old kids running the hroup. They think that since they are on the internet, there is no consquences for their actions.

[egbeachley]

Personally, I think all cut autographs should be treated like trimmed cards. Full value only if it's on a full page, full index cards, etc.

[Johnny630]

I agree! I'm not a fan of cut sigs.

[Mark70Z]

Man, that dinner program was such an awesome piece. It's really sad someone cut it up.