New Clemente 3000 hit photo?

[71buc]

I recently purchased this image. The seller reported that it is a photo of Clemente driving his 3000th hit. I asked him about its origin and how he could be certain that the photo depicted the moment he attributed to it. He responded,” I was there with my father (who took the photo) on the day of the 3,000th hit. I probably have the original 35mm slide, along with others”. I am communicating with the seller to purchase the slides in question.

I recently read the book Miracle Ball: My Hunt for the Shot Heard 'Round the World http://www.amazon.com/Miracle-Ball-H.../dp/0307452697 and was fascinated by the attempt to find the famous ball through the use of photographic studies. It is a great read. Nonetheless, the book inspired me to see if I could match this photo to the event it supposedly records.

The first photos show how the image arrived in the mail. It was professionally framed at a custom frame shop in Pittsburgh. The frame is vintage. When I removed the 5X7 image I found that it had been secured with an adhesive to a backing board. Due to this I cannot see the reverse. Although I cannot be certain, judging by the frame’s construction and the apparent age of the print it seems to be an image produced in the 1970’s. The frame was professionally constructed and I believe that the effort taken to present it indicates that the owner believed it to be of significane. I called the number of the frame shop and found that it is no longer in business.

I scanned the image and made no changes to it. I searched online for photos and videos from that day for comparable images. Unfortunately I could find no similar images taken from the third baseline. It appears that all comparable were shot from the first baseline. The video I found was also from that angle and overhead. I made screen captures of the available video. The screen captures are below for comparison. I place arrows on some of them to identify similarities without an explanation because I would like your assessments. The only thing that isn't consistent is that in the video Stargell is wearing a batting glove on his right hand. That glove does not appear in the photo. It would have been unusual for him to wear batting gloves so he may have removed it prior to the at bat? Nonetheless, based on what I have found I tend to believe that the photo I purchased does capture the moment of his 3000th hit. Do you agree? I know that my perception is biased due to ownership. The video I primarily used was imbedded in interesting story regarding the bat Clemente used that day http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/page...o-clemente-bat

[shernan30]

Looks to be the real deal from what I'm seeing. Great photo, congrats.


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[almostdone]

I think the photo matched evidence make a pretty clear cut case it is truly the same at bat. The three people in the same seats and clothing seals the deal for me. I love the photo. Please keep us updated if you can procure the origin Hal negatives. If you do I would deffinatly be interested in a copy if you were so inclined to duplicate it.

Great piece showing such a historic event.

Drew

[71buc]

Thanks Steven and Drew. I too believe it is a new look at Roberto's 3000th. I so badly wanted to believe it I feared that my judgment was compromised which is why I asked for unbiased opinions. If I secure the slide I will glady make a copy for you.

Mike

[CW]

Many people come on here with photos hoping it's a certain person or a certain event, and they try to stretch the truth to make the story fit, often unable to accept the fact that their item isn't special.

You, on the other hand, have done an excellent job of doing the research and presenting really good evidence to present your case. I think you're right that this does capture the 3K hit moment, and although I don't think it would be worth a huge amount of money, it is historically significant and a needle in the haystack type of find. Well done!

I found another similarity in the last crowd shot you presented, and, like Drew before me, I also thought this photo was the clincher that made me a believer...

[almostdone]

Originally Posted by CW

Many people come on here with photos hoping it's a certain person or a certain event, and they try to stretch the truth to make the story fit, often unable to accept the fact that their item isn't special.

You, on the other hand, have done an excellent job of doing the research and presenting really good evidence to present your case. I think you're right that this does capture the 3K hit moment, and although I don't think it would be worth a huge amount of money, it is historically significant and a needle in the haystack type of find. Well done!

I found another similarity in the last crowd shot you presented, and, like Drew before me, I also thought this photo was the clincher that made me a believer...

Nice catch on the guy in the blue. Deffinatly the same at bat.

[71buc]

CW thanks for the opinion and for finding the additional matching fan. I too doubt that its cash value out weighs its significance. However, it is very fun to find it being a Clemente fan.

[ksfarmboy]

I was bored so I checked the three years that's possible for this photo to be from. 1970 was the first year the Pirates wore these jerseys and 1972 was Clemente's last. So I narrowed the search to this.

Next I narrowed it further since the Pirates are at home and playing against the Mets. Duffy Dyer is catching so I checked the box scores of games that included Dyer and Clemente playing in Pittsburgh. This left six possible games with two from each year. While checking the home plate umpires I discovered that a different ump was used for each of these games. John Kibler umped September 30th.

If you can verify that's Kibler then you would know 100%. Hope this helps.

[71buc]

Thanks Clint, I don't know that I can even definitely say that Dyer is the catcher in the photo. The catcher's posture in the photo does align very closely to the video of Dyer from the 3000 clip. The umpires foot position is consistent as well. In the photo a portion of his white sock is visible. This sock is also visible in the video. I really doubt I could ever definitively identify Kibler or Dyer using such a low resolution photo.

[ksfarmboy]

You can see a water stain on the 3b side near home plate. It's in your photo. You can see in the video that it looks like a water mark about 3 foot long or so.

[hcv123]

Congrats Mike!

[baseball tourist]

Great pick up!

[71buc]

I thought I would share an update. I have been in contact with the seller of the Clemente 3000 hit photo. He is the son of the amateur photographer who took this shot. After numerous emails tonight he sold me 88 slides his father shot between August 1971 and August 1973. The items include 10 slides from the first night game in World Series history, nine slides from Game Four of the 1971 World series, 10 slides of a sports banquet in which Clemente was honored as the 1971 Sportsman of the year, a ticket stub to the banquet, 8 slides of the Sept 29th game in which a potential hit was ruled an error, and 7 slides from Sept 30th when he collected 3000. There are also 15 slides taken at Clemente’s HOF induction. I have not viewed these so I’m rolling the dice based on the 3000 print I purchased from the seller. Nonetheless, I am thrilled and cannot wait to receive the slides. The seller attended the sports banquet mentioned above with his father and has the program autographed by Stargell and Clemente. He is considering selling that to me as well. I will post shots printed from the slides once they are done.

[JollyElm]

You're not a nice guy, Mike, leaving us drooling like this. Shame on you!

[Scott Garner]

Hi Mike,
Happy holidays! Congrats on this cool Clemente pickup.
I'm certainly convinced by your evidence that it is the real deal. The photo matching of so many elements of the event really lock it down for me.

From what I recall, and after doing a photo search, I do not see evidence that Stargell used a batting glove when hitting. You obviously have a wealth of knowledge about your Buccos. Did he ever wear a batting glove when hitting during 1972? He certainly had a habit of wearing a batting glove on his mitt hand when playing 1B. See photos of him hitting and playing 1B.
If he was seen in the on deck circle wearing his batting glove in other photos of the moment, why would he take it off again prior to hitting?
I suspect because he wore it on his glove hand when playing defensively at 1B and took it off prior to the AB in the on deck batters circle. Maybe it was his usual routine, or he was so focused on Clemente's milestone AB that he forgot that he was still wearing it. I guess we will never know...

In any case, congrats once again.
Definitely an epic pickup for your Clemente/ Bucs collection.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by 71buc

I thought I would share an update. I have been in contact with the seller of the Clemente 3000 hit photo. He is the son of the amateur photographer who took this shot. After numerous emails tonight he sold me 88 slides his father shot between August 1971 and August 1973. The items include 10 slides from the first night game in World Series history, nine slides from Game Four of the 1971 World series, 10 slides of a sports banquet in which Clemente was honored as the 1971 Sportsman of the year, a ticket stub to the banquet, 8 slides of the Sept 29th game in which a potential hit was ruled an error, and 7 slides from Sept 30th when he collected 3000. There are also 15 slides taken at Clemente’s HOF induction. I have not viewed these so I’m rolling the dice based on the 3000 print I purchased from the seller. Nonetheless, I am thrilled and cannot wait to receive the slides. The seller attended the sports banquet mentioned above with his father and has the program autographed by Stargell and Clemente. He is considering selling that to me as well. I will post shots printed from the slides once they are done.

Wow!!
Looks like you hit the mother lode. What fun!

[almostdone]

Mike that's great you were able to finalize the deal. Would be a great addition if you were able to secure the signed program as well. Congratulations all around. Keep us posted as to the results when you receive everything. Very interested in seeing the specifics as is many others here I'm sure.

Drew

[mrozie21]

Wow that sounds like a great addition, good luck on the other photos.

[deeg23]

That's amazing!!!

[irv]

Originally Posted by almostdone

Mike that's great you were able to finalize the deal. Would be a great addition if you were able to secure the signed program as well. Congratulations all around. Keep us posted as to the results when you receive everything. Very interested in seeing the specifics as is many others here I'm sure.

Drew

For sure!

[hcv123]

WOW! Best Clemente find I've heard of in a while. Really curious about the ticket and program to the banquet - It wasn't the dapper dan dinner was it (Clemente was Honoree in 1962, 1967 and 1972)? Please send photos as soon as you can. So excited for you.

[71buc]

Thanks Howard, The tracking number indicates that the slides will arrive tomorrow. I will post the photos as soon as I have prints made. I am pretty excited about seeing them. Here are photos of the program and stub as well as the autographs. The seller said that he will reach out to me about selling the program in January. What do you think would be a reasonable price for it?

[71buc]

I converted the slides to JPEGS tonight. They are definitely amateur photos but still I greatly enjoyed them. I paid $1 per slide and they were well worth it. The Dapper Dan Photos were very poorly lit but Clemente, Stargell, Kison, Sanguillen, Prince, Murtaugh, and Satchel Paige were included. It's ironic that a year later Paige would join Clemente in Cooperstown. The Cooperstown slides did not include the induction ceremony but did capture a few interesting shots of the Clemente plaque as it was displayed in 1973. The World Series shots were taken form the Right Field grandstand so they lack detail. The Sept 29th shots were taken form the first baseline and are interesting. The shots from September 30th are about the same as the print I purchased from the seller in April. The seller included slides from an old timers game between the 1960 Pirates and Yankees. There were a few photos of Mantle and Berra included and some fun shots of Clemente and Maz as they line up wearing the new Pirates Polyester uniforms contrasting the flannels of their ex teammates. This sequence contains Clemente getting hit 3000, Schnek and Milner throwing 3000, Clemente standing at second, leading off of third and scoring. Just as it is with most things in life these slides were not as good as I hoped but much better than I feared.

[71buc]

Cooperstown Clemente plaque and Stargell Display taken August 1973

[71buc]

Game 5 1971 World Series pre game ceremony the action shots are blurred

[71buc]

Dapper Dan Ceremony Feb 1972 Clemente, Satchel Paige, Sanguilen, Brown, Murtaugh, Kison, Stargell

[71buc]

Old timers Game 1960 Pirates vs Yankees. There are many other slides but these provide a general representation of what I received.

[Scott Garner]

$1 a slide? C'mon, what a steal for your collection!
Congrats again, Mike!

[ksfarmboy]

Nice additions Mike!

[icollectDCsports]

Moments in time captured and preserved. So fun, and moving really, to view and think about. Thanks for sharing these.

[Mark70Z]

So cool; love it...

Thanks for sharing.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by 71buc

Thanks Howard, The tracking number indicates that the slides will arrive tomorrow. I will post the photos as soon as I have prints made. I am pretty excited about seeing them. Here are photos of the program and stub as well as the autographs. The seller said that he will reach out to me about selling the program in January. What do you think would be a reasonable price for it?

Hi Mike,

AWESOME slides - thanks for sharing. Regarding the program and stub - They are awesome too - very hard to find! The program often has a crease in it because people at the dinner folded it to carry in their pockets - the one you show has no crease. The stubs are incredibly rare! Yours is only the second one I have seen. Without the autograph I would estimate the program and stub at $100-$150. I don't follow autograph values and don't feel qualified to speculate on the premium attributable with the autograph. I hope that is helpful.

Howard

[71buc]

Thanks Howard, I am meeting with the seller in Seattle next March and will attempt to add the program to my collection at that time. I have one In my collection already but it is of the unsigned variety. I went through the rest of the slides and picked out the best of September 29th and Game 4 of the 1971 Series. Below are those from September 29th when Clemente reached first and it was ruled an error.

[71buc]

Game 4 1971 World Series

[irv]

GREAT Pictures!

Thanks for sharing.

[hcv123]

Good luck with the program acquisition.

[71buc]

Thought I would provide a quick update. After six months of my cautious soft peddling the owner finally agreed to sell his Roberto Clemente and Willie Stargell autographed Dapper Dan program to me. He also included an additional ticket to the event. I paid a premium for the childhood memories he had tied the items. I will post photos once I receive them. I wanted to thank Ben Weingarten for helping me fund the purchase by buying photos from me.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by 71buc

Thought I would provide a quick update. After six months of my cautious soft peddling the owner finally agreed to sell his Roberto Clemente and Willie Stargell autographed Dapper Dan program to me. He also included an additional ticket to the event. I paid a premium for the childhood memories he had tied the items. I will post photos once I receive them. I wanted to thank Ben Weingarten for helping me fund the purchase by buying photos from me.

Congrats Mike on what I am sure will be the centerpiece of your great Bucs collection.

[almostdone]

Congrats! When I saw your "quick sale" I was curious if the funds were headed to this collection.

I've said it before and I will restate but I really admire your passion for your 71 Pirates collection. It is truly impressive.

Again, great pick up and addition.

Drew

Ps. Still would like a copy of that Clemente photo if your willing to share

[71buc]

Thanks guys. Drew if you pm me your address I will get a copy in the mail for you.

Mike

[pherbener]

Great stuff Mike! I love your passion and can't wait to see the new pictures!

[rats60]

Originally Posted by 71buc

Game 4 1971 World Series

Wasn't game 4 a night game?

[71buc]

Originally Posted by rats60

Wasn't game 4 a night game?

Yes

[blackandgold]

Originally Posted by 71buc

Old timers Game 1960 Pirates vs Yankees. There are many other slides but these provide a general representation of what I received.

Mike,
Here is the special program for the Old Timers game. That was the first Pirates game I ever attended.

[71buc]

Originally Posted by blackandgold

Mike,
Here is the special program for the Old Timers game. That was the first Pirates game I ever attended.

Very cool those slides must bring back memories for you. I have been meaning to bring this thread to a close by posting the remainder of the items I obtained from the original owner. I have been unusually busy and unable to do so. We have a budding rock star in my family and that experience has consumed all my free time.

[71buc]

After a year of negotiating I managed to complete the purchase of this small collection from the original seller. The collection included the 3000 hit photo that I used to initiate this thread, all of the previously displayed slides, a set of 1971 Arco Pirate photos, a 1971 World Series Three Rivers Stadium model purchased at the World Series, a Clemente Family thank you card, and a Clemente postcard. I also obtained his two Dapper Dan tickets. He attended the event with his father and subsequently kept newspaper clippings related to that event. They were a fun read so I included them here. I hope they are legible. My favorite item in the collection was a signed Dapper Dan program. The original owner explained that his father got the Clemente autograph for him at the dinner. The seller said that he thinks he has an autograph book in which he collected the autographs of all the celebrities who attended the dinner that night. He said that if he locates it he will sell it to me as well.

[Mark70Z]

That grouping is AWESOME!

[Scott Garner]

Congrats Mike! Epic pickup for your terrific Pirates collection.

[almostdone]

Mike, again that's awesome. Quite a grouping and fits in perfectly with your collecting tastes. Are you going to post comments and choose what to display or perhaps figure out a scrapbook type display to sit down and flip through from time to time? Always interested in how different collectors enjoys their prized items.
Drew

[Den*nis O*Brien]

....for a collector, who is as focused as you are, this is a monumental find and pick up!!! This will be hard to equal going forward. Again...congrats and this material is where it belongs.
Sincerely, Dennis