Wagner cards more common than the T206 Wagner

[brianp-beme]

I thought I would get various opinions on Wagner cards (from his playing days) that are more common than the T206 Wagner. I thought would approach the subject this way because I personally believe there are more vintage Wagner cards that are rarer than the T206 Wagner than there are more common. Here are some that come readily to mind, and would like to see what others have to add to this list or disagree with those selected.

Updated listing below


More Common:

1913 Barker Game
1909/11 Colgans E254
1915 Cracker Jack
1909/11 E90-1 batting
1909/11 E90-1 throwing
1910 E91-C
1909 E92 batting
1909 E92 throwing
1910 E93
E94
1909 E95
1910 E98
1906 Fan Craze NL
1910/11 M116 blue
1910/11 M116 pastel
1913 National Game
1914 Polo Grounds Game


Around the same as the T206 Wagner:

1914 Cracker Jack
D304
D322 Tip-top
E90-2
E101 batting
E101 throwing
E102 batting


Less than the T206 (should be plenty of more issues in this grouping...let us know):

All Star Baseball
Baseball Bats
D381 Fleischman/Ferguson Bakery
E102 fielding
E103
E107
E135 Collins McCarthy
E270 Tin Tops
M101-4 (all backs)
M101-5 (all backs)
M131 Baltimore Newsboy
Orange Border batting
Orange Border portrait
T216 Kotton, Mino and Virginia Extra (all variations)
Texas Tommy type 1 and 2
Voskamps
Postcards: Rose Co, American League Pub, Novelty Cutlery, Vignette

Heck if I know:

BF2 Pennants
M101-2
M101-2 w/Cobb


Brian (updated list on post # 69)

[familytoad]

Fan Craze
E90-1

I 'll just do two, I think there are several more pretty easy ones...

[tiger8mush]

M101-2 Sporting News Supplement

I don't see many of his E145 CJs available but not sure if they are more common?

[brianp-beme]

I will add the E90-1 American Caramel and the Fan Craze to the list. I have to admit I know little to nothing about suppliment issues such as the M101-2, so would like to hear a confirming vote from another member on this one. And it would be interesting to hear what people think about the Cracker Jacks...I think they would qualify.

Thanks for the input...and keep it coming.

Brian

[rhettyeakley]

Here are some of his more common pre-WW2 items, some may be pretty close but all are potentially around the same as the T206 or more plentiful...

• 1913 Barker Game
• 1916 BF2 Pennants
• 1939 Centennial Stamps 24
• 1909/11 Colgans (E254)
• 1914 Cracker Jack 68
• 1915 Cracker Jack 68
• 1909/11 E90-1 batting
• 1909/11 E90-1 throwing
• 1910 E90-2
• 1910 E91-C
• 1909 E92 batting
• 1909 E92 throwing
• 1910 E93
• 1911 E94
• 1909 E95
• 1910 E98
• 1909 E101 batting
• 1909 E101 throwing
• 1909 E102 batting
• 1909 E102 throwing
• 1917 E135 180
• 1906 Fan Craze NL
• 1909/13 M101-2
• 1909/13 M101-2 w/cobb
• 1916 M101-4 182
• 1916 M101-5 184
• 1910/11 M116 blue
• 1910/11 M116 pastel
• 1921 Mrs. Sherlock’s Pins (maybe)
• 1913 National Game
• 1940 Play Ball 168
• 1914 Polo Grounds Game
• 1936 R311 Leather w/vaughan
• 1936 R312 w/vaughan
• 1936 R313

Two more posssibilities:
-1910 Tip-Top Bread (D322)
-D304
(I tend to think these aren't as rare as some think)

[brianp-beme]

Thanks Rhett...I think a lot of these Wagner issues are more common than his T206 Wagner. Of course this is all educated guesswork on our parts, but I think we can probably get a pretty accurate picture of how the T206 Wagner 'ranks' in scarcity versus his other cards.

From Rhett's list I have taken the liberty to eliminate any issues after his playing career (post 1917). Also I have grouped them into different availability categories. The first category are ones that I think are more readily available than the T206. The second group are cards that are right around the same amount (maybe a little more, maybe a little less), and the third is a list in its infacy of Wagner issues that are almost positively more scarce than his T206. The fourth category consists of issues that I have no real knowledge about, and with your responses can help dictate which other group they belong.

Let me know what you think of my groupings...I promise not to get grumpy if your opinions differ from mine.


More Common:

1913 Barker Game
1909/11 Colgans E254
1915 Cracker Jack
1909/11 E90-1 batting
1909/11 E90-1 throwing
1910 E91-C
1909 E92 batting
1909 E92 throwing
1910 E93
E94
1909 E95
1910 E98
1906 Fan Craze NL
1916 M101-4
1916 M101-5
1910/11 M116 blue
1910/11 M116 pastel
1913 National Game
1914 Polo Grounds Game


Around the same as the T206 Wagner:

1914 Cracker Jack
D304
D322 Tip-top
E90-2
E101 batting
E101 throwing
E102 throwing


Less than the T206 (should be plenty of more issues in this grouping...let us know):

All Star Baseball
Baseball Bats
D381 Fleischman/Ferguson Bakery
E102 batting
E103
E107
E135 Collins McCarthy
E270 Tin Tops
M131 Baltimore Newsboy
Orange Border batting
Orange Border portrait
T216 Kotton, Mino and Virginia Extra (all variations)


Heck if I know:

BF2 Pennants
M101-2
M101-2 w/Cobb


Brian

[Matt]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Let me know what you think of my groupings...I promise not to get grumpy if your opinions differ from mine.

More Common:

1913 Barker Game
1909/11 Colgans E254
1915 Cracker Jack
1909/11 E90-1 batting
1909/11 E90-1 throwing
1910 E91-C
1909 E92 batting
1909 E92 throwing
1910 E93
1909 E95
1910 E98
1906 Fan Craze NL
1916 M101-4
1916 M101-5
1910/11 M116 blue
1910/11 M116 pastel
1913 National Game
1914 Polo Grounds Game


Around the same as the T206 Wagner:

1914 Cracker Jack
D304
D322 Tip-top
E90-2
E94
E101 batting
E101 throwing
E102 throwing
E135 Collins McCarthy

I believe the following all should be moved to the more rare list:
1906 Fan Craze
E135 Collins McCarthy
E92 Crofts Cocoa, Candy & Nadja
M101-4
M101-5
E101 batting
E101 throwing
E102 throwing

I'd move the E94 and E90-2 to the more common list and the E102 batting to the 'about the same' list.

Also, just to clarify - this is in terms of rarity, not scarcity.

[brianp-beme]

Thanks Matt...I made a mistake on the E102 Wagner, as I mixed up the toughie. I will change the list. Also all the non-Dockman should be separated out, as I believe like you they would all be less common than the T206 Wagner. I agree with you (I was on the fence) about the E135 and E101being less common, and I think you are probably correct about the E90-2 being more common, but unless others chime in I will leave the E94 in its current group, as well as the M101-4 and M101-5 (especially if all the backs are lumped together), and the Fan Craze.

Brian

[Matt]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

unless others chime in I will leave the E94 in its current group, as well as the M101-4 and M101-5 (especially if all the backs are lumped together), and the Fan Craze.

FYI - combined SGC & PSA population reports (clearly not definitive, but better then nothing):

T206: (32+12=) 44
M101-4: (23+9=) 33
M101-5: (12+4=) 16
Fan Craze: (25+13=) 38
E94: (23+39=) 62

[Ladder7]

Where would u fellas place the E103
I know where the E135 blank-back belongs.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Ladder7

Where would u fellas place the E103
I know where the E135 blank-back belongs!

IMO E103 is tougher then the T206.

[brianp-beme]

Thanks Steve and Matt...E103 gets added to the tougher than list, and there is now enough evidence for me to make E94 more common as well. I still think jury is out on the M101-4/5 and Fan Craze.

Brian

[Bicem]

how about postcards? Rose Co, American League Pub, Novelty Cutlery, Vignette... all more rare.

[ValKehl]

I don't think anyone has mentioned the 1913 Voskamp's Coffee.
Val

[ullmandds]

I think there are far fewer e102 throwings than t206...did I read correctly? And I can't believe there are so many e94's...many must be resubmissions?

[smtjoy]

I agree with Matt that these are harder -

M101-4: (23+9=) 33
M101-5: (12+4=) 16

And if you dont like pop reports, you can go over the last 3-4 years of AH sales and see a lot more T206 Wags vs these two. If you split out the backs these are some of the toughest to find period.

[Leon]

C'mon guys, we could at least see some!! This one (D381) has been shown a hundred times before but is still neat to see.

[brianp-beme]

Thanks for the input Jeff, Val, Scott and Pete. I have adjusted the list to reflect your thoughts. Since the M101-4 and M101-5 sets were issued with so many backs, I imagine to say it is safe to say that each back would be rarer. So here is the updated list:


More Common:

1913 Barker Game
1909/11 Colgans E254
1915 Cracker Jack
1909/11 E90-1 batting
1909/11 E90-1 throwing
1910 E91-C
1909 E92 batting
1909 E92 throwing
1910 E93
E94
1909 E95
1910 E98
1906 Fan Craze NL
1910/11 M116 blue
1910/11 M116 pastel
1913 National Game
1914 Polo Grounds Game


Around the same as the T206 Wagner:

1914 Cracker Jack
D304
D322 Tip-top
E90-2
E101 batting
E101 throwing
E102 batting


Less than the T206 (should be plenty of more issues in this grouping...let us know):

All Star Baseball
Baseball Bats
D381 Fleischman/Ferguson Bakery
E102 fielding
E103
E107
E135 Collins McCarthy
E270 Tin Tops
M101-4 (all backs)
M101-5 (all backs)
M131 Baltimore Newsboy
Orange Border batting
Orange Border portrait
T216 Kotton, Mino and Virginia Extra (all variations)
Texas Tommy type 1 and 2
Voskamps
Postcards: Rose Co, American League Pub, Novelty Cutlery, Vignette

Heck if I know:

BF2 Pennants
M101-2
M101-2 w/Cobb


Brian

[ullmandds]

Regarding the e102 Wagner...the fielding is the rarer pose...not the batting?!

[glynparson]

more m101-4 and -5 would come out. These are not tougher than T206 unless you would possibly go with the different backs.

[Bicem]

Texas Tommy type I and type II... both much more rare.

(both also much more awesome if you're tracking that too)

[brianp-beme]

Thanks Pete and Jeff,

Texas Tommies added, and jeepers I hope I have straightened up the E102 Wags rarity. Still considering the M101-4 and M101-5. I have also posted the updated list on the original post, just to make life easier.


More Common:

1913 Barker Game
1909/11 Colgans E254
1915 Cracker Jack
1909/11 E90-1 batting
1909/11 E90-1 throwing
1910 E91-C
1909 E92 batting
1909 E92 throwing
1910 E93
E94
1909 E95
1910 E98
1906 Fan Craze NL
1910/11 M116 blue
1910/11 M116 pastel
1913 National Game
1914 Polo Grounds Game


Around the same as the T206 Wagner:

1914 Cracker Jack
D304
D322 Tip-top
E90-2
E101 batting
E101 throwing
E102 batting


Less than the T206 (should be plenty of more issues in this grouping...let us know):

All Star Baseball
Baseball Bats
D381 Fleischman/Ferguson Bakery
E102 fielding
E103
E107
E135 Collins McCarthy
E270 Tin Tops
M101-4 (all backs)
M101-5 (all backs)
M131 Baltimore Newsboy
Orange Border batting
Orange Border portrait
T216 Kotton, Mino and Virginia Extra (all variations)
Texas Tommy type 1 and 2
Voskamps
Postcards: Rose Co, American League Pub, Novelty Cutlery, Vignette

Heck if I know:

BF2 Pennants
M101-2
M101-2 w/Cobb


Brian

[Ladder7]

shunt forget these ugly, but tough step-children;




this or the t200 may not fit in your survey;


still dont know jack about this pc. seems to be three different uni's here, http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...=278&lot_qual=

[sportscardpete]

Wagner has an e104-2 card which is considerably rarer than the e103.

[E93]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Thanks Pete and Jeff,


Around the same as the T206 Wagner:

1914 Cracker Jack
D304
D322 Tip-top
E90-2
E101 batting
E101 throwing
E102 batting


Brian

Just my unscientific observation, but I would guess all of these are more plentiful than the T206 Wagner.
JimB

[brianp-beme]

Thanks Steve, Robert Glyn and Pete...note the changes made to the list, including the M101-4.


More Common:

1913 Barker Game
1909/11 Colgans E254
1915 Cracker Jack
1909/11 E90-1 batting
1909/11 E90-1 throwing
1910 E91-C
1909 E92 batting
1909 E92 throwing
1910 E93
1909 E95
1910 E98
1906 Fan Craze NL
1910/11 M116 blue
1910/11 M116 pastel
1913 National Game
1914 Polo Grounds Game


Around the same as the T206 Wagner:

1914 Cracker Jack
D304
D322 Tip-top
E90-2
E94
E101 batting
E101 throwing
E102 batting
M101-4 Sporting News and blank backs


Less than the T206 (should be plenty of more issues in this grouping...let us know):

All Star Baseball
Baseball Bats
D381 Fleischman/Ferguson Bakery
E101 batting
E101 fielding
E102 fielding
E103
E104-2
E107
E135 Collins McCarthy and all associated backs
E270 Tin Tops
M101-4 (all backs except for Sporting News and Blank)
M101-5 (all backs)
M131 Baltimore Newsboy
Orange Border batting
Orange Border portrait
T216 Kotton, Mino and Virginia Extra (all variations)
Texas Tommy type 1 and 2
Voskamps
W555
W-Unc 1912
Postcards: Rose Co, American League Pub, Novelty Cutlery, Vignette

Heck if I know:

BF2 Pennants
M101-2
M101-2 w/Cobb


Brian

[Matt]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Around the same as the T206 Wagner:

E101 batting
E101 throwing
E102 batting

Less than the T206 (should be plenty of more issues in this grouping...let us know):

E102 fielding

I'd still venture the E101s are rarer; certainly much rarer then the E102 batting.

[ValKehl]

Brian - Does your "E135 Collins McCarthy" listing encompass all the E135-like cards that have different ads on the back (e.g., H801-8 Boston Store, D329 Weil Baking, etc.), similar to your M101-4/M101-5 listings?
Val

[ValKehl]

Brian - A couple more Wagners that are scarcer than the T206 are (1) 1912 E300 Plow's Candy, and (2) 1910 E271 Darby Chocolates.
Val

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Brian - Does your "E135 Collins McCarthy" listing encompass all the E135-like cards that have different ads on the back (e.g., H801-8 Boston Store, D329 Weil Baking, etc.), similar to your M101-4/M101-5 listings?
Val

Val...it does now. I would venture to state that E135 cards with any back (including the Collins McCarthy) are rarer than the T206 Wagner. And Matt, I have always believed that E94 and E101 as a group were rarer than a lot of small caramel sets. Therefore I have dropped each down (up?) in the rarity scale. It's good to be king. As Pete mentioned before, it is hard to believe that there are a comparable amount of graded E94 Wagners out there.


More Common:

1913 Barker Game
1909/11 Colgans E254
1915 Cracker Jack
1909/11 E90-1 batting
1909/11 E90-1 throwing
1910 E91-C
1909 E92 batting
1909 E92 throwing
1910 E93
1909 E95
1910 E98
1906 Fan Craze NL
1910/11 M116 blue
1910/11 M116 pastel
1913 National Game
1914 Polo Grounds Game


Around the same as the T206 Wagner:

1914 Cracker Jack
D304
D322 Tip-top
E90-2
E94
E101 batting
E101 throwing
E102 batting
M101-4 Sporting News and blank backs


Less than the T206 (should be plenty of more issues in this grouping...let us know):

All Star Baseball
Baseball Bats
D381 Fleischman/Ferguson Bakery
E101 batting
E101 fielding
E102 fielding
E103
E104-2
E107
E135 Collins McCarthy and all associated backs
E270 Tin Tops
M101-4 (all backs except for Sporting News and Blank)
M101-5 (all backs)
M131 Baltimore Newsboy
Orange Border batting
Orange Border portrait
T216 Kotton, Mino and Virginia Extra (all variations)
Texas Tommy type 1 and 2
Voskamps
W555
W-Unc 1912
Postcards: Rose Co, American League Pub, Novelty Cutlery, Vignette

Heck if I know:

BF2 Pennants
M101-2
M101-2 w/Cobb


Brian

[Bicem]

w600 and T5 more rare

[benchod]

Both w600s
In street clothes and in uniform
Did we already get the e107?
How about the Reccius Wagner?

[rman444]

More rare:

E92 Crofts Candy both poses
E92 Crofts Cocoa both poses
E92 Nadja both poses
E125 both poses
M110

[brianp-beme]

Thanks Richard, Craig and Jeff...all mentioned belong in the rarer than thou category. I had the Crofts and Nadja previously on the list, but somehow eliminated them. Here is the updated listing

More Common:

1913 Barker Game
1909/11 Colgans E254
1915 Cracker Jack
1909/11 E90-1 batting
1909/11 E90-1 throwing
1910 E91-C
1909 E92 Dockman batting
1909 E92 Dockman throwing
1910 E93
1909 E95
1910 E98
1906 Fan Craze NL
1910/11 M116 blue
1910/11 M116 pastel
1913 National Game
1914 Polo Grounds Game


Around the same as the T206 Wagner:

1914 Cracker Jack
D304
D322 Tip-top
E90-2
E94
E101 batting
E101 throwing
E102 batting
M101-4 Sporting News and blank backs


Less than the T206 (should be plenty of more issues in this grouping...let us know):

All Star Baseball
Baseball Bats
D381 Fleischman/Ferguson Bakery
E92 Crofts Candy both poses
E92 Crofts Cocoa both poses
E92 Nadja both poses
E101 batting
E101 fielding
E102 fielding
E103
E104-2
E107
E135 Collins McCarthy and all associated backs
E270 Tin Tops
M101-4 (all backs except for Sporting News and Blank)
M101-5 (all backs)
M110
M131 Baltimore Newsboy
Orange Border batting
Orange Border portrait
Reccius Icky Bob
T5
T216 Kotton, Mino and Virginia Extra (all variations)
Texas Tommy type 1 and 2
Voskamps
W555
W-Unc 1912
Postcards: Rose Co, American League Pub, Novelty Cutlery, Vignette

Heck if I know:

BF2 Pennants
M101-2
M101-2 w/Cobb


Brian

[ValKehl]

Hi Brian - Are you not in agreement with the two cards I mentioned in Post #29?
Val

[ullmandds]

Gotta be an oversight...those 2 are no brainers!

[rman444]

Also left off the E125s

For what it's worth, if you were to break up the D304 by back and E94s by color front (similar to what was done for M101-4/5 and E92), they would all be more rare than the t206 as well.

[where the gold at?]

if you considered the backs of d304 series the Weber Bakery Wagner would be the toughest. i owned the only known copy.

[brianp-beme]

Hi All,

Thanks for all the additional input. Not only were some of these an oversight, they were practically sightless on my behalf. It has been fun assembling this as we go...the majority of these I could have pegged for the right group, but it is fun to work out the 'too close to call' issues. Thanks again Val and rman. Those two rare issues are obvious, and I think we should separate out the D304 into different backs, as conceiveably they were issued in separate product. Conversely, I do think we should leave the E94 colors as one group...they have consistent backs. I have cleaned up the listings a little bit.


More Common:

1913 Barker Game
1909/11 Colgans E254
1915 Cracker Jack
1909/11 E90-1 batting and throwing
1910 E91-C
1909 E92 Dockman batting and fielding
1910 E93
1909 E95
1910 E98
1906 Fan Craze NL
1910/11 M116 blue
1910/11 M116 pastel
1913 National Game
1914 Polo Grounds Game


Around the same as the T206 Wagner:

1914 Cracker Jack
D322 Tip-top
E90-2
E94
E102 batting
M101-4 Sporting News and blank backs


Less than the T206 (should be plenty of more issues in this grouping...let us know):

All Star Baseball
Baseball Bats
D304 all backs
D381 Fleischman/Ferguson Bakery
E92 Crofts Candy both poses
E92 Crofts Cocoa both poses
E92 Nadja both poses
E101 batting and fielding
E102 fielding
E103
E104-2
E107
E125 American Caramel both poses
E135 Collins McCarthy and all associated backs
E270 Tin Tops
E271 Darby Chocolates
E300 Plows Candy
M101-4 (all backs except for Sporting News and Blank)
M101-5 (all backs)
M110
M131 Baltimore Newsboy
Orange Border batting and portrait
Reccius Icky Bob
T5
T216 Kotton, Mino and Virginia Extra (all variations)
Texas Tommy type 1 and 2
Voskamps
W555
W-Unc 1912
Postcards: Rose Co, American League Pub, Novelty Cutlery, Vignette

Heck if I know:

BF2 Pennants
M101-2
M101-2 w/Cobb


Brian

[Matt]

Anyone have thoughts on the E91C and the Fan Craze? They are currently in the more common group. I know the E91C is not terribly desirable, but I always thought it were not so many of them out there.

[DixieBaseball]

Is there really more than 60-80 e254 Wagner's ? I would think that number is high... Perhaps Rhett or Chris could comment on the Colgan's e254's...

[Mikehealer]

I would think Mello Mints are tougher.

[brianp-beme]

Thanks Mike for pointing out the E105. It is also rarer than The Card. I am up in the air on the E91-C Matt...you certainly don't see them that often, but perhaps that is because people are hiding the Joe Tinker imposter from view
Jeremy...Rhett did chime in earlier that the E254's were either equal or greater than T206...I'll let him chime again before changing it down a notch to the equal column.


More Common:

1913 Barker Game
1909/11 Colgans E254
1915 Cracker Jack
1909/11 E90-1 batting and throwing
1910 E91-C
1909 E92 Dockman batting and fielding
1910 E93
1909 E95
1910 E98
1906 Fan Craze NL
1910/11 M116 blue
1910/11 M116 pastel
1913 National Game
1914 Polo Grounds Game


Around the same as the T206 Wagner:

1914 Cracker Jack
D322 Tip-top
E90-2
E94
E102 batting
M101-4 Sporting News and blank backs


Less than the T206 (should be plenty of more issues in this grouping...let us know):

All Star Baseball
Baseball Bats
D304 all backs
D381 Fleischman/Ferguson Bakery
E92 Crofts Candy both poses
E92 Crofts Cocoa both poses
E92 Nadja both poses
E101 batting and fielding
E102 fielding
E103
E104-2
E105 Mello-Mint
E107
E125 American Caramel both poses
E135 Collins McCarthy and all associated backs
E270 Tin Tops
E271 Darby Chocolates
E300 Plows Candy
M101-4 (all backs except for Sporting News and Blank)
M101-5 (all backs)
M110
M131 Baltimore Newsboy
Orange Border batting and portrait
Reccius Icky Bob
T5
T216 Kotton, Mino and Virginia Extra (all variations)
Texas Tommy type 1 and 2
Voskamps
W555
W-Unc 1912
Postcards: Rose Co, American League Pub, Novelty Cutlery, Vignette

Heck if I know:

BF2 Pennants
M101-2
M101-2 w/Cobb


Brian

[Leon]

Here is one but it's after his playing days. I have it dated to 1946 so not sure if we want to include it. Obviously much more scarce than his T206...

[barrysloate]

7000 posts for Leon....that's a lot!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

7000 posts for Leon....that's a lot!

As a type collector that isn't too focused as well as the main moderator, posts add up quickly.

[rman444]

JKA is tougher

[chaddurbin]

in the minority, but i don't think the e103 is tougher anymore. i've seen different ones pop up regularly the past few years, with at least a handful lowgrade examples owned by board members. i place them the same as e90-2.

[WillowGrove]

Hey Brian, if we have colgans on the list, we should include e286 juju drums. I would say those are equal to or more rare than t206. But I defer to the gang.

Peter

[bobbvc]

If T5's are on the list, W600 should be. I'd say Uniform version would be same or less. Suit version definitely less.