Your top 3 non HOFers

[Peter_Spaeth]

No Rose, no steroid dudes, no guys not yet eligible.

Who are your top 3 post war non HOFers? Not meant to be a thread about who SHOULD be in, as I think it's already overstuffed.

The numbers probably won't bear me out, but my picks would be Hodges, Oliva and Garvey.

[The-Cardfather]

I would Agree with Gil Hodges. But I would add Tim Raines & Keith Hernandez to my list.

[JustinD]

Hey Pete,

Not starting a debate, but if Rose, Jackson and the "steroid era" guys are out I have no one that fits that bill.

I still think entrance requirements based on character and not accomplishment make the HOF a joke.

Just a personal opinion.

...and I agree. It's overstuffed with plenty of borderline homer fan picks already.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Hey Pete,

Not starting a debate, but if Rose, Jackson and the "steroid era" guys are out I have no one that fits that bill.

I still think entrance requirements based on character and not accomplishment make the HOF a joke.

Just a personal opinion.

...and I agree. It's overstuffed with plenty of borderline homer fan picks already.

Again, and apologies if it was not clear, not asking who should be in or out. Just to identify top players who are not in.

[pokerplyr80]

Hodges, Mattingly, and Edgar Martinez.

[mrmopar]

I'll go with a Dodger theme of Garvey, Hodges, Daubert and W. Davis. I know 3 was the request, but felt I couldn't exclude 1 here.

[sago]

Albert Belle, Keith Hernandez, and Ted Simmons.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Bo Jackson/Deion Sanders, Jim Abbott, Andy Pettite

[Canofcorn]

Mattingly, Trammel, Bagwell

[Vintagevault13]

Dale Murphy, Fred McGriff, Alan Trammel


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[aconte]

Dale Murphy, Larry Bowa, Steve Garvey

[midmo]

Gil Hodges, Don Mattingly, Dale Murphy

[bobsbbcards]

Jim McCormick, Bill Dahlen, and Lou Whitaker

[KingFisk]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No Rose, no steroid dudes, no guys not yet eligible.

Who are your top 3 post war non HOFers? Not meant to be a thread about who SHOULD be in, as I think it's already overstuffed.

The numbers probably won't bear me out, but my picks would be Hodges, Oliva and Garvey.

Larry Walker, Tim Raines, Alan Trammell. Honorable mentions to Lou Whitaker, Kenny Lofton, and Bobby Grich. Leaving out Bagwell because he is only not in yet because of the steroid whispers, I think.

[Neal]

Trammel, Whitaker, Tim Raines

[almostdone]

I'll go from the "who I like to collect" point of view. Two could be in the debate of HOFer and one has become a personal favorite of mine for not only his accomplishments on the field but also the life he has led, and is still living, off the field.
Minnie Minoso
Gil Hodges
Carl Erskine

Dre

[bnorth]

Tony Oliva and Fred McGriff.

[talkinbaseball]

Hodges,Mattingly & Thurman.

[irv]

Originally Posted by almostdone

I'll go from the "who I like to collect" point of view. Two could be in the debate of HOFer and one has become a personal favorite of mine for not only his accomplishments on the field but also the life he has led, and is still living, off the field.
Minnie Minoso
Gil Hodges
Carl Erskine

Dre

Couldn't agree more!

http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb/news...f1utvju92wsadk

9× All-Star (1951–1954, 1957, 1959–1960²)
3× Gold Glove Award (1957, 1959, 1960)
3× AL stolen base leader (1951–1953)
Chicago White Sox #9 retired

MLB stats, awards, and achievements[edit]
Years Games PA AB Runs Hits 2B 3B HR RBI SB BB SO OBP SLG BA Fld%
17 1,835 7,712 6,579 1,136 1,963 336 83 186 1,023 205 814 584 .389 .459 .298 .971
All-Star: 1951–1954, 1957, 1959 (2 games), 1960 (2 games)
Gold Glove: 1957 (Outfield), 1959 (AL-Outfield), 1960 (AL-Outfield)
AL leader in hits (1960)
AL leader in doubles (1957)
AL leader in triples (1951, 1954, 1956)
AL leader in sacrifice flies (1960, 1961)
AL leader in stolen bases (1951–1953)
AL leader in times on base and total bases (1954)
Chicago White Sox All-Century Team (2000)

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...e-hall-of-fame

[rats60]

Bagwell
Raines
Trammell

[nat]

Reasons are more interesting than just names. Let's hear the arguments for these guys.

I'm going to exclude Bagwell and Raines, because I think it's very very likely that they get in in the next year (Raines) or two (Bagwell). Schilling and a couple other guys currently on the ballot get omitted for similar reasons.

Don't hold me to these picks as the very best, but here are a few:

Lou Whittaker. Lou's trouble is that he did everything well and nothing outstanding. He had good power (20 HR range in the 1980s), was a good fielder (+15 dWAR, although some of that he gets just for playing second base, but he also won a few gold gloves), he walked more than he struck out. He was an above-average batter all but one year of his career, even playing a defense-first position. 75 wins above replacement (basically, if you replaced him with a AAA guy you'd expect to win 75 fewer games over the course of his career) and 42 wins above average, both well above what it usually takes to get into the hall of fame.

Kevin Brown. I know that this one will be unpopular, but Brown really was a great player, it's just that no one was paying attention. From 1992 to 2001 (the heart of his career) he had a 3.00 ERA over 2166 innings. From 1996 to 1998, his best seasons, he had a 2.33 ERA over 717 innings. Good for a 172 ERA+ (Basically just ERA once you control for the parks where he played, and compared to average; higher is better.) By comparison from 1964 to 1966 Koufax had a 176 ERA+ in 881 innings. So his peak was not quite as good as Koufax's, that's nothing to be ashamed of. 68 WAR/ 40 WAA for him.

Got to run, I'll come up with a third later.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I assume steroid suspicion has kept Bagwell out, no? Otherwise he seems pretty obvious.

My reasoning on Hodges Oliva and Garvey is that they were each pretty dominant players for a decade or close to it, although they didn't quite put together the big career numbers. I guess Mattingly fits that bill too.

[Bill77]

If I had to name just 3 players I would go with:

Al Oliver .303 BA, 2743 Hits in 18 seasons
Buddy Bell .279 BA, 2514 Hits in 18 seasons
Del Ennis .284 BA, 2063 Hits in 14 seasons

Others would include:
Lou Whitaker
Mark Grace
Rusty Staub


I just think it's amazing how many players have good/great stats that seem to be overlooked just because they don't play on great teams or are overshadowed by bigger stars of the era.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Bill77

If I had to name just 3 players I would go with:

Al Oliver .303 BA, 2743 Hits in 18 seasons
Buddy Bell .279 BA, 2514 Hits in 18 seasons
Del Ennis .284 BA, 2063 Hits in 14 seasons

Others would include:
Lou Whitaker
Mark Grace
Rusty Staub


I just think it's amazing how many players have good/great stats that seem to be overlooked just because they don't play on great teams or are overshadowed by bigger stars of the era.

There are a lot of reason why, and a lot of reasons that don't make any sense and just make one shake their head in disbelieve!
http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/...again-20141208

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article...-a-lot-of-work

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/ml...thomas-raines/

[71buc]

I agree with Raines and have always possessed a bias for Scoop. Is there anyone who owns 4 batting titles other than Madlock not in the hall?

[egri]

If you're asking about who I think the best players are who aren't in and don't belong, I'd say Pete Runnels, Fred Lynn and Jackie Jensen. The best who aren't in and who do belong IMPO are Gil Hodges, Dom DiMaggio and Billy Pierce.

[Steve D]

My top two are Steve Garvey and Dale Murphy.

There are several others who I feel should be in the HOF (and are past their BBWAA eligibility), but are too close to break down at #3, including Tommy John, Jim Kaat, Luis Tiant, Ted Simmons, Thurman Munson, Keith Hernandez, Fred McGriff, Minnie Minoso, Gil Hodges.....

Steve

[ZiggerZagger]

Gil Hodges, Tony Oliva and Tim Raines for me

[packs]

Mattingly
Larry Walker
Fred McGriff

[39special]

Gil Hodges
Roger Maris
Tony Oliva

[nat]

What's with the love for Gil Hodges? Here's a game, guess which line belongs to which player. The first number is plate appearances, the second is home runs, the third is OPS+ (on-base percentage plus slugging percentage, adjusted to take home park into account, and compared to league average, 100 is dead average each year, higher is better), and wins above replacement.

8657, 473, 138, 44

7137, 293, 128, 38

8102, 370, 120, 45

7809, 339, 134, 39

7914, 377, 139, 52

8230, 340, 137, 53


And here's the names in a different order: Kent Hrbeck, Boog Powell, Jack Clark, Gil Hodges, Carlos Delgado, and Norm Cash. See if you can match the line to the name.

That's a bunch of similar players right there. None of them are in the hall of fame, and none of them have much of a chance.

[Laxcat]

Late to the game but here are mine: Ken Boyer Roger Maris & Bill Freehan

[Harliduck]

I'm a huge Tony Oliva fan...still can't believe he isn't in.

Tony Oliva
Gil Hodges
Tommy John


Honorable Mention - Thurman Munson, Dale Murphy


All mentioned earlier, so sorry for the boring post...lol

[bravos4evr]

Jim Kaat, Dale Murphy, Tim Raines

I really don't see why Kaat has been kept out, from 61-75 the only 2 arms with more WAR were Gibson and Gaylord Perry.

Murph, cuz he was my idol growing up a Braves fan. and Rock Raines because in any other era he would have been the best leadoff man, he just happened to play at the same time as Rickey, his numbers scream HOF to me tho.

[Exhibitman]

Raines for Nick's reasons.

Munson because he was the core of the great Bronx Zoo teams and the best or second best catcher in the league for nearly a decade. ROY MVP.

Dick Allen. He may have been a dick but he was a genuine talent.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nat

What's with the love for Gil Hodges? Here's a game, guess which line belongs to which player. The first number is plate appearances, the second is home runs, the third is OPS+ (on-base percentage plus slugging percentage, adjusted to take home park into account, and compared to league average, 100 is dead average each year, higher is better), and wins above replacement.

8657, 473, 138, 44

7137, 293, 128, 38

8102, 370, 120, 45

7809, 339, 134, 39

7914, 377, 139, 52

8230, 340, 137, 53


And here's the names in a different order: Kent Hrbeck, Boog Powell, Jack Clark, Gil Hodges, Carlos Delgado, and Norm Cash. See if you can match the line to the name.

That's a bunch of similar players right there. None of them are in the hall of fame, and none of them have much of a chance.

Hodges did have 7 straight 100 RBI seasons and all star appearances.

[Peter_Spaeth]

As an aside Rocky Colavito had 350+ HR at age 32, then vanished.

[jason.1969]

Legends from when I was a kid - Thurman Munson, JR Richard, Steve Garvey, Dave Parker.

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[KingFisk]

Would love to get Bill Gregory's thoughts on Larry Walker if he had a minute to spare. I always thought he was unfairly dinged for the Coors effect and his injury issues. I don't think there were too many more complete players than Walker. I am sure there are some good analyses online but always enjoy seeing our resident expert opine.

[glynparson]

Garvey
Madlock
Raines

[jason.1969]

It would be fun to create a poll of all players named here. I'd propose 85%+ as the entry criteria (and suspect nobody would make it).

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[rats60]

Originally Posted by nat

What's with the love for Gil Hodges? Here's a game, guess which line belongs to which player. The first number is plate appearances, the second is home runs, the third is OPS+ (on-base percentage plus slugging percentage, adjusted to take home park into account, and compared to league average, 100 is dead average each year, higher is better), and wins above replacement.

8657, 473, 138, 44

7137, 293, 128, 38

8102, 370, 120, 45

7809, 339, 134, 39

7914, 377, 139, 52

8230, 340, 137, 53


And here's the names in a different order: Kent Hrbeck, Boog Powell, Jack Clark, Gil Hodges, Carlos Delgado, and Norm Cash. See if you can match the line to the name.

That's a bunch of similar players right there. None of them are in the hall of fame, and none of them have much of a chance.

As has been mentioned, he drove in 100+ runs 7 seasons. He was also a key member of a team that won 7 pennants and 2 championships. 8 time all star, recieved mvp votes 9 times and won 3 gold gloves (would have won a lot more if the award existed his whole career). Hodges was also very good in team wins (and bad in losses) , hitting .309 with a .974 ops. So despite his career numbers, he was very important to team success on a team that won a lot and is remembered for being good in those wins. He was also good defensively although some don't seem to value defense at all. That is why although he may not make the hof, he stands out on that list of first basemen.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by rats60

As has been mentioned, he drove in 100+ runs 7 seasons. He was also a key member of a team that won 7 pennants and 2 championships. 8 time all star, recieved mvp votes 9 times and won 3 gold gloves (would have won a lot more if the award existed his whole career). Hodges was also very good in team wins (and bad in losses) , hitting .309 with a .974 ops. So despite his career numbers, he was very important to team success on a team that won a lot and is remembered for being good in those wins. He was also good defensively although some don't seem to value defense at all. That is why although he may not make the hof, he stands out on that list of first basemen.

RBI's is not a very good number to use for player's individual performance because it s driven by the quality of the player's who bat in front of him. 3 guys can have equal offensive production but vary greatly in RBI because one guy played for a good offensive team and the others didn't.

not trying to start a SABER war, but I think RBI is like pitcher wins, it's just too contingent on the performance of other people to be treated as if it is the product of the individual.

[Johnny630]

Mine would be
1.Gil Hodges
2. Ken Boyer
3. Minnie Minoso
3. Tony Oliva
4. Dick Allen

Favorite Signature would be Gil Hodges on a 52 Topps ! Wow

[Jim65]

Bill Madlock, .305 Career BA, 4 Batting Titles

[DBesse27]

Minoso, Oliva, murphy, Garvey, Dwight Evans. That's more than 3, but I couldn't decide who to drop

[rats60]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

RBI's is not a very good number to use for player's individual performance because it s driven by the quality of the player's who bat in front of him. 3 guys can have equal offensive production but vary greatly in RBI because one guy played for a good offensive team and the others didn't.

not trying to start a SABER war, but I think RBI is like pitcher wins, it's just too contingent on the performance of other people to be treated as if it is the product of the individual.

Well will just have to agree to disagree then because I strongly disagree with your whole post. The player has to drive in those runs. I would rather have a player like Hodges than some guy who walks a lot and has an inflated obp, but doesn't produce. I wouldn't penalize a guy who played on a bad team and didn't have opportunities to drive in runs. However, you have to give Hodges credit for taking advantage of his opportunities and driving in those runs that led to wins.

As far as pitching wins, after era it is the most important stat. After all the idea of the game is the score the most runs/allow the fewest runs and win games. Have a good fip, whip, bb/k ratio, etc. are all fine, but in the end may be meaningless to the result of this game. Some people act like this game is played in a vacuum. They ignore that valid strategies of the game harm those prized sabr stats but produce wins. Things like pitching around hitters in situations or pitching to the score of the game. Also, to complain that a pitcher's bullpen can't hold a lead when the pitcher is partially at fault because he wasn't able to finish the game is silly in my opinion.

[jason.1969]

The challenge is what value to ascribe to the advanced stats vs conventional ones. Do they turn our understanding of the game upside-down, just nudge it a little, or merely add noise?

I like the advanced stats for helping contextualize things like RBI totals in 1930 or hitters at Coors vs Astrodome. I also like some of the "new" measures like WAR for attempting imperfectly to quantify the total value of a player.

However, I still feel like a pitcher who went 22-10 had a better year than a guy who went 9-13, regardless of advanced metrics. I suspect the two pitchers in question would agree. I'm not saying the former is the better pitcher in vacuo...just that he had a better year.

By extension, I would say Gil Hodges and Steve Garvey also had better careers than nearly everyone regarded as equal or slightly better by the advanced measures.

To the extent the HOF is generally associated with great careers, I would look at Wins and RBIs as much more important than anything you need a calculator for.

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[quinnsryche]

Garvey
Parker
Simmons

[gnpaden]

Fred McGriff, Kenny Lofton and Tony Oliva.