Raines, Bagwell and IRod get the call

[Griffins]

3 solid picks, wouldn't be a tragedy if they didn't make it but isn't a travesty that they did. Just glad the juicers will have to wait another year, at least.

[bravos4evr]

next year I guess Chipper, Jim Thome and Trevor Hoffman get in (Hoffman was only like 5 votes short for 2017)

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by Griffins

Just glad the juicers will have to wait another year, at least.

Assuming Pudge didn't juice...which I find highly unlikely.

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

next year I guess Chipper, Jim Thome and Trevor Hoffman get in (Hoffman was only like 5 votes short for 2017)

Vlad was only 15 votes shy, good chance he gets in next year as well.

[CMIZ5290]

Chipper Jones biggest problem is not the juice, but his sorry ass attitude towards the media and other people. The guy has a huge reputation as being a big dick....Don't think something like this doesn't matter....

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Chipper Jones biggest problem is not the juice, but his sorry ass attitude towards the media and other people. The guy has a huge reputation as being a big dick....Don't think something like this doesn't matter....

+1

well said, Kevin!

definitely not the type player I would ever want to have a drink with.

[Topps206]

I just feel Pudge opens the door to other juicers. I have reason to think he did. Bagwell deserves it. Raines deserves it. Pudge? The numbers scream Hall of Famer. If he juiced, that's a shame.

Chipper, Thome, Vlad and Hoffman next year. Even with Chipper's attitude, he'll get in.

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by Topps206

I just feel Pudge opens the door to other juicers. I have reason to think he did. Bagwell deserves it. Raines deserves it. Pudge? The numbers scream Hall of Famer. If he juiced, that's a shame.

Chipper, Thome, Vlad and Hoffman next year. Even with Chipper's attitude, he'll get in.

Agreed on all counts.

[Griffins]

Originally Posted by Topps206

I just feel Pudge opens the door to other juicers. I have reason to think he did. Bagwell deserves it. Raines deserves it. Pudge? The numbers scream Hall of Famer. If he juiced, that's a shame.

Chipper, Thome, Vlad and Hoffman next year. Even with Chipper's attitude, he'll get in.

Piazza was a juicer and he got in
I suspect IRod was as well too
I guess we'll have 2 tiers of juicers, the suspected ones and the blatant ones

[Jim65]

I can't wait until next year when all ballots become public so we know who the idiots are who give players like Tim Wakefield a vote.

Vlad should have been a first ballot HOF.

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by Griffins

Piazza was a juicer and he got in
I suspect IRod was as well too
I guess we'll have 2 tiers of juicers, the suspected ones and the blatant ones

Piazza took Andro. We don't know about anything else.

[jimjim]

I feel bad for Rafael Palmeiro. Hopefully he'll make it from the Veterans Committee. Now that steroid users are getting close to getting in then he should be in too. And that doesn't take into account Rickey Henderson, Mike Piazza, and Ivan Rodriguez, all questionable steroid users.

[Topps206]

I'm not going to watch Pudge's speech. I'll just watch Raines and Bagwell.

I can't really get hung up on Hoffman and Vlad missing out. They both belong, but they'll get that 75% next year.

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Chipper Jones biggest problem is not the juice, but his sorry ass attitude towards the media and other people. The guy has a huge reputation as being a big dick....Don't think something like this doesn't matter....

How can someone so ornery be called "Chipper"? I might be ornery too if I had to go through life with a name like that!

[packs]

For some reason a grown man prefers the name Chipper to Larry.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Jim65

I can't wait until next year when all ballots become public so we know who the idiots are who give players like Tim Wakefield a vote.

Vlad should have been a first ballot HOF.

Probably a hometown vote. Not really unusual for good but not great players who were very popular.

I don't think Wakefield is HOF material, but there are worse guys that get votes. One thing so many people overlook are the non-stat things or the things a player might do that help the team but wreck their stats. Wakefield did a lot of that sort of stuff. Like taking a start on short rest with the understanding that no matter what he was going 9 innings because the bullpen desperately needed the day off. That will hardly ever show as a plus on a guys stats.
And it mattered to the team, enough that at one point they agreed on a fairly inexpensive contract that was one year automatically renewing unless Wakefield opted out. Which he did towards the end of his career to negotiate a new contract at a lower price.

Steve B

[Topps206]

How did Brian Giles not get a vote in 2015? While I think he falls short, he was a better player than some would think.

[KMayUSA6060]

I can't believe Hoffman didn't get in 1st ballot. To me, main difference between him and Mo Rivera (borderline unanimous HoFer) is Mariano played for the Yankees, while Hoffman was a Padre.

On a different note... Has anyone ever been do an induction ceremony? Jim Thome is my favorite player of all time, and my buddy and I are looking to make the trip up to Cooperstown next year for the ceremony. Would love to get some tips.

Little side story. My best friend and I met in 4th grade. He was home schooled up until that point, and joined our class a month or so into the school year. He was real shy, so I went up and introduced myself at lunchtime. Found out he's a sports fan, especially Browns/Cavs/Indians. I asked him who his favorite baseball player is, he said Jim Thome. We've been best friends ever since. He's going to be my Best Man in my wedding next year.

[jbl79]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

I can't believe Hoffman didn't get in 1st ballot. To me, main difference between him and Mo Rivera (borderline unanimous HoFer) is Mariano played for the Yankees, while Hoffman was a Padre.

Yes, Rivera played for the Yankees but he performed in the postseason. 0.70 ERA with 42 saves in 141 innings in the postseason is what separates him from the other closers. Hoffman will eventually get in but his postseason success doesn't compare. He doesn't quite measure up to Mo in that regard.

[KMayUSA6060]

Originally Posted by jbl79

Yes, Rivera played for the Yankees but he performed in the postseason. 0.70 ERA with 42 saves in 141 innings in the postseason is what separates him from the other closers. Hoffman will eventually get in but his postseason success doesn't compare. He doesn't quite measure up to Mo in that regard.

Right, which is why I brought up the Yankees. To me, the postseason difference is what makes Rivera a borderline unanimous HoFer, more than just a 1st ballot HoFer. Rivera also had 96 postseason appearances, and the Yankees made the playoffs nearly every year.

Can a closer, who is 2nd in MLB history in saves, be punished for only having 12 total postseason appearances (only 4 times did the Padres make the playoffs)? Hoffman is not unanimous, and that's not my argument. But he's 2nd to only Rivera in Career Saves, and Lee Smith isn't even close in 3rd place. He deserved to be a 1st ballot HoFer in my opinion.

[Runscott]

All the great players get into the HOF. Most of the almost-great players eventually get in as well. Character is supposed to matter but 'attitude' has more of an impact, thus a few almost-greats do not make it, and a few less-than-almost-greats actually get in. I don't remember seeing 'longevity' in the list of HOF-worthy characteristics, but it also enables the almost-greats to get in.

As far as steroids go, John McGrath wrote a great op-ed for yesterday's Tacoma Tribune regarding Dale Murphy and Rule 5 of the voting. I think it's worth a read.

The fact that so many guys like Tim Raines, who have overcome some huge hurdles (many self-inflicted) are able to have a special moment like this, makes it okay to me that it is a 'Hall of Well Above Average' as opposed to a true HOF.

[packs]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

Right, which is why I brought up the Yankees. To me, the postseason difference is what makes Rivera a borderline unanimous HoFer, more than just a 1st ballot HoFer. Rivera also had 96 postseason appearances, and the Yankees made the playoffs nearly every year.

Can a closer, who is 2nd in MLB history in saves, be punished for only having 12 total postseason appearances (only 4 times did the Padres make the playoffs)? Hoffman is not unanimous, and that's not my argument. But he's 2nd to only Rivera in Career Saves, and Lee Smith isn't even close in 3rd place. He deserved to be a 1st ballot HoFer in my opinion.

That's not the only thing separating Hoffman from Rivera. Rivera's WAR is 56.6. Hoffman's is 28. Rivera only played one more season than Hoffman but was worth twice as many wins.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Runscott

All the great players get into the HOF. Most of the almost-great players eventually get in as well. Character is supposed to matter but 'attitude' has more of an impact, thus a few almost-greats do not make it, and a few less-than-almost-greats actually get in. I don't remember seeing 'longevity' in the list of HOF-worthy characteristics, but it also enables the almost-greats to get in.

As far as steroids go, John McGrath wrote a great op-ed for yesterday's Tacoma Tribune regarding Dale Murphy and Rule 5 of the voting. I think it's worth a read.

The fact that so many guys like Tim Raines, who have overcome some huge hurdles (many self-inflicted) are able to have a special moment like this, makes it okay to me that it is a 'Hall of Well Above Average' as opposed to a true HOF.

Just commenting, there have been TONS of posts debating the steroids angle, but this is the only time someone even alluded to hardcore drug use from a candidate. I guess nobody cares?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

Just commenting, there have been TONS of posts debating the steroids angle, but this is the only time someone even alluded to hardcore drug use from a candidate. I guess nobody cares?

Ken, I was trying to put a positive spin on it, but I believe you are right - nobody cares. Look at Michael Irvin - a cocaine-using embarrassment to the Dallas Cowboys, and yet he not only made the HOF, but shortly thereafter became a very popular commentator. A truly shining example for our youth. Same for a possible NFL murderer from Atlanta.

I don't have the knowledge to compare hardcore drugs to steroids with regard to their affects on performance, but apparently such drugs do not reflect 'character'... as long as the cash register is still ringing. The evidence would suggest that only wife-beating slows down the NFL money-flow (murder is okay as long as you are not convicted), while the MLB cash register is adversely affected by steroid use, gambling and sometimes temporarily by hard-core drugs.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by jimjim

I feel bad for Rafael Palmeiro. Hopefully he'll make it from the Veterans Committee. Now that steroid users are getting close to getting in then he should be in too. And that doesn't take into account Rickey Henderson, Mike Piazza, and Ivan Rodriguez, all questionable steroid users.

I'm always amazed!

While I guess blatantly lying to Congress is akin to making your hooker pay, you should never 'feel bad' for a millionaire who once won a Gold Glove as a Designated Hitter!


Your sympathies would be far more appropriate for those who weren't elected to the Hall while they were alive like Ron Santo and those who still have no been recognized like Minnie Minoso.


.

[Topps206]

The way I see it, baseball honors excellence and longevity at other positions. I see no reason why closer should be different.

At least Hoffman isn't lost in the shuffle like I feared. He is knocking on the door.

[cardsfan73]

I am really happy Raines finally made it in! No problems with either Pudge or Bagwell going in either.

I am sure Vlad gets in next year!

Scott

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

Right, which is why I brought up the Yankees. To me, the postseason difference is what makes Rivera a borderline unanimous HoFer, more than just a 1st ballot HoFer. Rivera also had 96 postseason appearances, and the Yankees made the playoffs nearly every year.

Can a closer, who is 2nd in MLB history in saves, be punished for only having 12 total postseason appearances (only 4 times did the Padres make the playoffs)? Hoffman is not unanimous, and that's not my argument. But he's 2nd to only Rivera in Career Saves, and Lee Smith isn't even close in 3rd place. He deserved to be a 1st ballot HoFer in my opinion.

saves is really a terrible stat. It tells us nothing about a player's actual ability. when compared to Rivera in things like WAR, K/9 BB/9 wRC+ against, ERA+...etc he falls wayyy behind both Rivera and Billy Wagner.

I think Hoffman is a HOF'er, but he wasn't as dominant as his save total says

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by Topps206

The way I see it, baseball honors excellence and longevity at other positions. I see no reason why closer should be different.

At least Hoffman isn't lost in the shuffle like I feared. He is knocking on the door.

the thing is that relievers just don't provide that much value unless they are the elite of the elite (and even then a guy like Mariano Rivera, with his career, was less productive than an above avg starter with no HOF hopes like say Tim Hudson).

Closer has been a thing for a little under 50 years, and there are 5 guys in the HOF who were mainly relief pitchers. I think that's about right. Hoffman, Rivera and Wagner are all worthy guys, so if that jumps to 8.... yeah that feels right, 1 or 2 a decade give or take.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

the thing is that relievers just don't provide that much value unless they are the elite of the elite (and even then a guy like Mariano Rivera, with his career, was less productive than an above avg starter with no HOF hopes like say Tim Hudson).

Closer has been a thing for a little under 50 years, and there are 5 guys in the HOF who were mainly relief pitchers. I think that's about right. Hoffman, Rivera and Wagner are all worthy guys, so if that jumps to 8.... yeah that feels right, 1 or 2 a decade give or take.

Interesting that despite five 20-win seasons, Hunter averaged 16-12 over a 162 game season, and Hudson with one 20-win season, averaged 16-9. I don't consider Hunter to be HOF-worthy either, but their stats have some similarities. Their ERA's are 3.49 for Hudson and 3.26 for Hunter - not that much difference, and higher ERA's are more tolerated these days. Plus, many of you give players a bump for longevity (the Phil Niekro factor), so that would give Hudson an edge over Hunter.

[packs]

Hudson nearly won 100 more games than he lost too. I think the only pitchers to have a 100 win / loss differential who are not in the HOF are Mussina and Pettitte.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Interesting that despite five 20-win seasons, Hunter averaged 16-12 over a 162 game season, and Hudson with one 20-win season, averaged 16-9. I don't consider Hunter to be HOF-worthy either, but their stats have some similarities. Their ERA's are 3.49 for Hudson and 3.26 for Hunter - not that much difference, and higher ERA's are more tolerated these days. Plus, many of you give players a bump for longevity (the Phil Niekro factor), so that would give Hudson an edge over Hunter.

Your example kinda shows why pitcher wins are a lousy gauge of production as they are so linked to the quality of a player's team. Hudson was a worse pitcher than Hunter (tho not by a lot)but because both played on good teams they gathered a lot of wins. (Though it can be said that Catfish Hunter is one of those 'on the cusp" players in the HOF)

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by packs

Hudson nearly won 100 more games than he lost too. I think the only pitchers to have a 100 win / loss differential who are not in the HOF are Mussina and Pettitte.

Ron Guidry averaged 17-9 with a 3.29 ERA and 175 K's/162 games.

But he didn't have Phil Niekro's stellar stat of longevity. Add 6 really crap years (not as crappy as his last one) to the end of his career and he makes the HOF.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

Your example kinda shows why pitcher wins are a lousy gauge of production as they are so linked to the quality of a player's team. Hudson was a worse pitcher than Hunter (tho not by a lot)but because both played on good teams they gathered a lot of wins. (Though it can be said that Catfish Hunter is one of those 'on the cusp" players in the HOF)

I don't think Hudson was worse. In my opinion, there are more non-HOF-worthy pitchers in the HOF than any other position.

I love arguing about the HOF - HOF minimalists like me have the luxury of knowing that all of our players are in, whereas guys on the other end of the spectrum are disappointed. It was really rough listening to Twins and Cubs fans complain 10-15 years ago about being overlooked, as those two teams have had more not-quite-great players than any others.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I don't think Hudson was worse. In my opinion, there are more non-HOF-worthy pitchers in the HOF than any other position.

I love arguing about the HOF - HOF minimalists like me have the luxury of knowing that all of our players are in, whereas guys on the other end of the spectrum are disappointed. It was really rough listening to Twins and Cubs fans complain 10-15 years ago about being overlooked, as those two teams have had more not-quite-great players than any others.

Huddy's career was longer, but Hunter's peak was better.

[1952boyntoncollector]

John Paciorek was a career 1.000 hitter and was on pace for a 486 hit season at his current pace before he got hurt...he should be in the HOF

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...aciojo01.shtml

[EvilKing00]

I think Vlad was better (way better) than all three that got in. Not that i dont think the 3 who got in dont deserve it.

I also think bonds, clemens, joe jackson and pete rose belong in too - so maybe im crazy!

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Chipper Jones biggest problem is not the juice, but his sorry ass attitude towards the media and other people. The guy has a huge reputation as being a big dick....Don't think something like this doesn't matter....

As a huge met fan I hated chipper - really hated him - BUT the guy was awesome - jesh i wish we had him!

IMO he will go down as one of the best hitting 3b of all time if not the best

468 HR, 303 BA, 401 OBP, 549 Doubles, 930 OPS

Insane