(E121) Stars of Base Ball Pack-This Package Contains Twenty Pictures..In Appreciation

[Leon]

These have blank backs and came from the son of a retired 89 year old Antique Store Owner. They came in the pack as shown. When asked where they came from here was the response-

"These belong to my dad and he is 89 yrs old and can't remember. He had an antique store and I keep finding interesting items."

Scans came out different sizes but they are all the same size and look to be machine cut....They seem to be in nice shape.

.

[yanksfan09]

Great cards! I was the under bidder on these. You won these I guess?

Kind of wish I had bid more, neat find for sure with the wrapper and all!


I'm glad a fellow board member (owner!) got them.

They definitely can't be hand cut cards, the package they came in basically proves that. The all look gorgeous!

Congrats!

Interested in hearing more insights into this find from the experts on the forum, especially on the W D Boyce note/card...

[Leon]

Yes I did win them. They are even nicer than they looked.

Originally Posted by yanksfan09

Great cards! I was the under bidder on these. You won these I guess?

Kind of wish I had bid more, neat find for sure with the wrapper and all!

I'm glad a fellow board member (owner!) got them.

They definitely can't be hand cut cards, the package they came in basically proves that. The all look gorgeous!

Congrats!

Interested in hearing more insights into this find from the experts on the forum...

[yanksfan09]

Congrats! Great pickup and find!

[greenmonster66]

Nice Pick up Leon, Congrats! What auction did you win them from?

[irishdenny]

"Simply SomKiN, Leon!!!"

[paul]

So these are W.D. Boyce & Co. cards? I think that needs to be researched further!

[spec]

For a few seconds on closing night I was high on this lot, but I was really only interested in the Davenport card. As much as I would have liked to add that one to my collection, I feel good about them staying together with the package and insert card as a unique collectible.

[georgiapeach]

Isn't he the guy that started the Boy Scouts?

[Leon]

I think he was involved and then broke off and started another group which eventually merged. But he was a player in the beginnings of the Boy Scouts. Here is a larger scan to show the condition better......

Originally Posted by georgiapeach

Isn't he the guy that started the Boy Scouts?

It's almost like they have been stored in the pack since they were made....

[whelenfan]

Those look great! Nice pickup!

[Rookiemonster]

Ridiculous pick up ! What a pack 20 cards and loaded with stars .

[JustinD]

Great pickup, I had no idea of that one!

[danmckee]

WOW! Beyond Way Cool!! KILLER! I love the typed index card!!!

Great cards and original Packaging!

Kudos to the winner.

Dan Mckee

[sb1]

As a side note to this story when Leon contacted me about this group, I related to him how I had just seen an old thread and a picture I believe of a newspaper ad, telling boys to come in and get their pack of 20 star baseball players.

At the time I was looking for something else and simply skimmed over it. I do not recall the merchant, nor can I seem to find it again. So, somewhere I believe is a thread and a pic of the original ad for these. Perhaps a board member can find, it may even have been on the old site.

[danmckee]

Hi Scotty! Glad to see you are doing well. Dan

[Leon]

Thanks for the kind words, guys. I have a feeling this little mystery pack is going to either answer a few questions or beg to ask a few more?

Can someone please tell me where Stengel is listed in E121? I am probably missing him somewhere? I should mention I see him listed with Holsum Bread, Herpolsheimers (I think I might have owned it at one time) but don't see him in American Caramel lists?

[brianp-beme]

Stengel is not in either E121 set (or all the series of 80 variations). Davenport is also not part of the E121 sets, although it might have been a recent series of 80 discovery (curse that memory...it is sometimes only able to make bank shots nowadays).

Great Pickup!

Brian

[brianp-beme]

An additional note...Davenport is also an interesting card as it is not seen in the W575 set.

Brian

[sb1]

These players seem to parallel either the Holsum or Herposheimer's checklist.

[obcbobd]

Originally Posted by Leon

Thanks for the kind words, guys. I have a feeling this little mystery pack is going to either answer a few questions or beg to ask a few more?

Can someone please tell me where Stengel is listed in E121? I am probably missing him somewhere? I should mention I see him listed with Holsum Bread, Herpolsheimers (I think I might have owned it at one time) but don't see him in American Caramel lists?

Leon

Very nice. Thanks for sharing.

Stengel is in the W575 series. Are they blank backed?

thanks

Bob

[Leon]

Originally Posted by obcbobd

Leon

Very nice. Thanks for sharing.

Stengel is in the W575 series. Are they blank backed?

thanks

Bob

Hi Bob
Yes, blank back. I have personally designated them as "M-Unc" for now....as WD Boyce sent these out most likely to promote his publications... also, I guess this might get into a debate about W575s being handcut? Or, what is a W575?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_D._Boyce

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[rhettyeakley]

Great pickup!

W575-1 has always been a "catch-all" designation that comprises several different sets that are tough to nearly impossible to distinguish. Most from my experience have been factory cut (or blank backed E121 cards) but they were also distributed in sheets either as point of sale items or were the advertising sheets that were later cut down and those are obviously hand cut. We need to stop thinking of W575-1 as hand cut cards as they normally are not BUT we think of them as such simply because of the W-designation & PSA always grades them with that designation.

Of the cards that I have cataloged in the W575-1 set, you have no new additions to the known checklist (at least to me). The three "key" cards in your group are the Stengel (batting), the Davenport, & the Jacobson (with position as "R.F." and not the regular "C.F." that was made in the E121 set. The Stengel and Davenport were subjects/images that were dropped before the first version of E121 Series of 80 was made (at least no examples have been found with the American Caramel backs...yet --this family of sets is the most complicated ever with the exception of the Old Judge series)

These cards can likely be dated to about the same time as the D327 Holsum Type 2//H-Unc Herpolsheimer//Queen City//Shotwell cards were being produced but before the E121 Series of 80 first printing was made. I still will have to compare the Type 2 Holsum's, Herp's, & other issues I have seen to these examples to see if there are any other changes to the positions, teams, etc. in a little more depth.

Of the "exclusive cards" like the Stengel, Davenport, and Jacobson cards Leon has in this lot, I have copies of the following that are probably from this same promotion/time frame w/ blank backs...

Dave Davenport
Duffy Lewis (NY Americans)
Ray Morgan
Zeb Terry (kneeling)
Carl Weilman
Lawton Witt


I have seen the following from this promotion (but do not own)...

Art Fletcher (glove outstretched)
John Henry (catching-front view)
Wm C. Jacobson (R.F.)
Charles Stengel (Batting)

[rhettyeakley]

When I said that there are several different sets that are all considered part of the "Blank Back" W575-1 set I am specifically speaking of all the following being grouped together in what amounts to a mass of confusion...
1.) W575-1 (blank backed E121 Series of 80 cards)
2.) W575-1 (blank backed E121 Series of 120 cards)--hard to tell the diff in a scan but the card stock is very different between the 80 & 120 series--obvious in hand, 120 series is much thinner
3.) D383 Koester's Bread
4.) W501 Type 2 (same checklist as regular W501, grainy photos, thin stock, hand cut top and bottom borders--true "strip cards")
6.) Henry Johnson Confectioners (essentially a stamped back version of #1 above)
7.) Henry Keating Candy Co. (again, essentially a stamped version of #1--like Henry Johnson)
8.) Service Candy Co/Henry Johnson Type 2 w/ blue/green back stamps (see #6 & 7)
9.) This "new" series of cards distributed in 4 sets of 20 (once removed from the little envelopes it will be tough to distinguish from #1 above and may just be easier to group those together minus the "dropped" or "exclusive" cards.)

[Leon]

Thanks Rhett. I (and 2 others) appreciate it . I agree, with a mix mash of those sets below these cards can definitely be found. Guessing 1920?

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

When I said that there are several different sets that are all considered part of the "Blank Back" W575-1 set I am specifically speaking of all the following being grouped together in what amounts to a mass of confusion...
1.) W575-1 (blank backed E121 Series of 80 cards)
2.) W575-1 (blank backed E121 Series of 120 cards)--hard to tell the diff in a scan but the card stock is very different between the 80 & 120 series--obvious in hand, 120 series is much thinner
3.) D383 Koester's Bread
4.) W501 Type 2 (same checklist as regular W501, grainy photos, thin stock, hand cut top and bottom borders--true "strip cards")
6.) Henry Johnson Confectioners (essentially a stamped back version of #1 above)
7.) Henry Keating Candy Co. (again, essentially a stamped version of #1--like Henry Johnson)
8.) Service Candy Co/Henry Johnson Type 2 w/ blue/green back stamps (see #6 & 7)
9.) This "new" series of cards distributed in 4 sets of 20 (once removed from the little envelopes it will be tough to distinguish from #1 above and my just be easier to group those together minus the "dropped" or "exclusive" cards.)

[rhettyeakley]

Leon, your group in from early 1921.

[ValKehl]

Rhett, thanks for identifying all the different issues that are considered to be related blank-back W575-1s AND for all the fantastic research you have done and continue to do pertaining to the E121 and all of its related issues.
Val

[kmac32]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

When I said that there are several different sets that are all considered part of the "Blank Back" W575-1 set I am specifically speaking of all the following being grouped together in what amounts to a mass of confusion...
1.) W575-1 (blank backed E121 Series of 80 cards)
2.) W575-1 (blank backed E121 Series of 120 cards)--hard to tell the diff in a scan but the card stock is very different between the 80 & 120 series--obvious in hand, 120 series is much thinner
3.) D383 Koester's Bread
4.) W501 Type 2 (same checklist as regular W501, grainy photos, thin stock, hand cut top and bottom borders--true "strip cards")
6.) Henry Johnson Confectioners (essentially a stamped back version of #1 above)
7.) Henry Keating Candy Co. (again, essentially a stamped version of #1--like Henry Johnson)
8.) Service Candy Co/Henry Johnson Type 2 w/ blue/green back stamps (see #6 & 7)
9.) This "new" series of cards distributed in 4 sets of 20 (once removed from the little envelopes it will be tough to distinguish from #1 above and may just be easier to group those together minus the "dropped" or "exclusive" cards.)

I have many examples in my Elmer Miller collection. Always looking for more. :-)

[rhettyeakley]

Elmer should be pretty easy actually as he has the following...

E121 Series of 80 (2 different backs)
E121 Series of 120
D383 Koester's Bread (position C.F.)
E-Unc Lou Gertenrich
W501
W501 Type 2
W575-1 Blank Back (position O.F.) -Essentially a blank backed E121-Ser 120


Theoretical (unconfirmed)
D-Unc Gassler's Bread (should exist, just haven't seen it)
UT-Unc Leader Theatre (long shot to exist)

[sreader3]

Wow Leon. The pack fresh cards, wrapper and note really evoke that sense of nostalgia that is associated with many of the best vintage collectibles. Amazing.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by georgiapeach

Isn't he the guy that started the Boy Scouts?

Baden Powell is the guy who started the Boy Scouts.

[Yoda]

Yes, Leon, but will you take these pack fresh lovelies and entomb them or leave them to breath the sweet air of freedom. If you decide to go the plastic route, I bet the grader will have a hard time trying to figure out exactly what they are. Great pull!

[Leon]

Hey John
For the time being they will stay where they can breathe. They are so high grade (or look to be) that if they are sold, and they well could be in the future, they might have to be graded in order not to leave value on the table. It is debatable though.

A few other observations after a bit more research.
Yes, I think they fall under the "W575"s moniker and as such should be called that. The only difference on this group, and any other blank back group I have seen, is we know exactly who distributed them. REA had a set of 120 blank backs, glued into an album and sold that way, not too long ago. So there are at least those 120 as blank backs too. I am confident more discoveries will be made in the future and we will learn more about them.

Originally Posted by Yoda

Yes, Leon, but will you take these pack fresh lovelies and entomb them or leave them to breath the sweet air of freedom. If you decide to go the plastic route, I bet the grader will have a hard time trying to figure out exactly what they are. Great pull!