Jumbo Wags back up for sale...the history of the card.

[ullmandds]

Interesting background on the jumbo wags expected to set a record in upcoming auction.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidsei.../#5522fba94ca0

[brob28]

Saw that this morning Pete, can you imagine having those cards she describes in her letter, unreal!! Love the history behind these rarities.

[Baseball Rarities]

I would love to know the specifics about the Piedmont Wagner that she mentions.

[TCMA]

The missing piece in all of this is... what happened to those other cards? Why didn't my dad buy all of them? Was he out of cash? Were they gone by the time he got there? Anything is possible but I don't believe he would have passed on them completely had they been there. Without a doubt he knew several other collectors at the time who would have been interested in them. I'm sure he would have tried to broker a deal.

I know he wrote down his offer for the Jumbo in his notebook but there's no mention of other cards at all or of other offers. It's a mystery.

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by TCMA

The missing piece in all of this is... what happened to those other cards? Why didn't my dad buy all of them? Was he out of cash? Were they gone by the time he got there? Anything is possible but I don't believe he would have passed on them completely had they been there. Without a doubt he knew several other collectors at the time who would have been interested in them. I'm sure he would have tried to broker a deal.

I know he wrote down his offer for the Jumbo in his notebook but there's no mention of other cards at all or of other offers. It's a mystery.

Maybe he did buy them but had a buyer lined up. So he quickly purchased them and sold them no biggie. Or the lady didn't except his offer. How knows ? I wonder if the mainstream media knows about this yet ?

[GasHouseGang]

We should probably add a pic of the letter offering the Wagner so when it disappears off that website it will still be here.

[brob28]

Originally Posted by TCMA

The missing piece in all of this is... what happened to those other cards? Why didn't my dad buy all of them? Was he out of cash? Were they gone by the time he got there? Anything is possible but I don't believe he would have passed on them completely had they been there. Without a doubt he knew several other collectors at the time who would have been interested in them. I'm sure he would have tried to broker a deal.

I know he wrote down his offer for the Jumbo in his notebook but there's no mention of other cards at all or of other offers. It's a mystery.

Yes Andrew, it would be great to know what became of the other cards. Also, the original owner must have been one hell of a collector to have those cards, I would be shocked if some of the big name collectors of that era didn't know this person. Did your Dad ever mention anything about the entire collection?

[TCMA]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

Maybe he did buy them but had a buyer lined up. So he quickly purchased them and sold them no biggie. Or the lady didn't except his offer. How knows ? I wonder if the mainstream media knows about this yet ?

I know for a fact he definitely did not buy any other cards from the woman other than the Jumbo. It could be that she was mistaken about what the other cards were but I'm not convinced of that. She knew enough to know that the Wagner, Plank, Lajoie were the coveted cards.

Just speculating here but based on what she claimed was in her collection I wonder if it's possible her grandfather worked in one of the factories. During the 1909 - 1911 period her father would have been just a kid.

[TCMA]

Originally Posted by brob28

Yes Andrew, it would be great to know what became of the other cards. Also, the original owner must have been one hell of a collector to have those cards, I would be shocked if some of the big name collectors of that era didn't know this person. Did your Dad ever mention anything about the entire collection?

No, he just doesn't remember if the other cards were there but he doesn't think so.

[JollyElm]

Don't you hate trying to read someone's handwriting on your screen? It always seems to take forever to decipher what the heck the person was saying all of those years ago. So, to make it easier on everybody, here's a transcript (is that the proper word?) of the letter posted above. I think I got it all correctly, but if anyone thinks I misinterpreted anything, LMK.

"July 24 - 1974

Gentlemen -
I have the baseball card collection of my late father, who would have been now in his 80’s. It seems to me, to be quite extensive and include two Sweet Caporal Honus Wagner cards, one Piedmont Honus Wagner - two Plank cards and three of Lajoie.

This collection would be for sale - either separately or as a whole - depending, of course, on the Money involved"

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Interesting background on the jumbo wags expected to set a record in upcoming auction.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidsei.../#5522fba94ca0

Nice, very interesting post, Pete!

Regards,

Larry

[mark evans]

Thanks Pete, great article.

I've got no special insight into Honus's value, and certainly have no serious money, but the $5 million estimate strikes me as high. If I were to guess, I should think its value to be closer to that of the Gretzky card.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by mark evans

Thanks Pete, great article.

I've got no special insight into Honus's value, and certainly have no serious money, but the $5 million estimate strikes me as high. If I were to guess, I should think its value to be closer to that of the Gretzky card.

Ya...i agree... Most auction houses like to underestimate to beat expectations goldin seems to have the opposite philosophy that usually backfires.

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by TCMA

I know for a fact he definitely did not buy any other cards from the woman other than the Jumbo. It could be that she was mistaken about what the other cards were but I'm not convinced of that. She knew enough to know that the Wagner, Plank, Lajoie were the coveted cards.

Just speculating here but based on what she claimed was in her collection I wonder if it's possible her grandfather worked in one of the factories. During the 1909 - 1911 period her father would have been just a kid.

Anything is possible, but I would doubt this. The grandfather had no way of predicting what the cards mentioned in the letter would turn out to be - and although we haven't and will not see images of the Plank, and we don't know if she had any other T206s, judging by the Jumbo it doesn't look like scrap. Nor, a few decades later how the Lajoie would turn out. It's possible he was in touch with other private collectors in the late 50s or sixties, or when brief hobby mimeographs began circulating and also the trade pubs were beginning to come out(?). Would be nice to know the family's surname. Did the letter happen to come in an envelope with a return address?

Anyway, it's a great mystery and thanks for sharing the story!

[rats60]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Ya...i agree... Most auction houses like to underestimate to beat expectations goldin seems to have the opposite philosophy that usually backfires.

What do you think this card is going to sell for? Do you think it will bring 5+, less than 3, or somewhere in between?

[BeanTown]

Over 5m without a doubt. Heck, it could go for over 10 million IF two parties with deep pockets thinks it "market value".

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

Over 5m without a doubt. Heck, it could go for over 10 million IF two parties with deep pockets thinks it "market value".

Jay, I think you're full of beans!

The fantasized two gents with deep pockets have probably turned their attention to rolling art. If the term is unknown to you, I am referring to a vintage sports car, preferably one with provenance of regal racing history! It won't be a Ferrari, however. Those kind of Ferraris all go for double that $5 million figure, and higher---sometimes much higher.

Keep enjoying those beans, bro. I do. They're good for you. But do try to be away from your loved ones several hours after eating!

--Brian Powell

[Yoda]

With all the AH fireworks over the last 6 months with 50's RC of Mantle, Mays, Clemente, Koufax, Rose etc. going off the price grid, I can't help but wonder if all the new card money eg, private equity boys, hedgies, Chinese money launderers, whoever, will be major players for the Jumbo Hans. I suspect that Goldin has contacts with many of the heavy hitters and, of course, has been promoting the card heavily, so there is bound to be major interest. Of course, we shouldn't forget that there are a lot of deep pockets collectors out there who care more about the card and its' history than being in a major penis measuring contest. I really don't think $5 million is out of the question, but if 2 billionaires end up bidding against each other then watch out. Don't forget some of these people buy works fine art well in excess of $5M all the time. After the Mastro debacle this auction, in my opinion, is about the most exciting hobby event this century. Yeah!

[TCMA]

Originally Posted by Paul S

It's possible he was in touch with other private collectors in the late 50s or sixties, or when brief hobby mimeographs began circulating and also the trade pubs were beginning to come out(?). Would be nice to know the family's surname. Did the letter happen to come in an envelope with a return address?

Anyway, it's a great mystery and thanks for sharing the story!

Very possible the father was in touch with other collectors through the trade pubs. I do have the daughter's surname but not her father's surname. It'd take some research but I bet I'd be able to figure it out. Could then scour the very early pubs to see any mention of his name.

[Touch'EmAll]

The Jumbo Wagner closes in 3 days on Saturday Oct. 1. Right now, Wednesday is at $1.9 million. My random crazy guess is ending at $5.5 to $6. million, be shocked if less then $4. million. My question is the (MC) designation - I have only seen severe off center get the (mc) - like (mc) is even worse than (oc). But this card has no (oc) properties, just extra boarder at bottom. Do you think the (mc) is correct for this card?

[swarmee]

Probably gets a higher grade from SGC or BVG. But I don't think that matters to the people buying it. It is one of the best copies of the card there is.

[Cooptown]

Originally Posted by TCMA

Very possible the father was in touch with other collectors through the trade pubs. I do have the daughter's surname but not her father's surname. It'd take some research but I bet I'd be able to figure it out. Could then scour the very early pubs to see any mention of his name.

Andrew - the article posted refers to a card shop your Dad owned in Cooperstown. Do you remember the name of the shop, where it was located in the village, and the years it was open? I grew up an hour away from Heaven....errr, I mean Cooperstown and frequented it a lot.

[TCMA]

Originally Posted by Cooptown

Andrew - the article posted refers to a card shop your Dad owned in Cooperstown. Do you remember the name of the shop, where it was located in the village, and the years it was open? I grew up an hour away from Heaven....errr, I mean Cooperstown and frequented it a lot.

Absolutely, the name of the store is Baseball Nostalgia. In-fact it's still open and operated by Pete Henrici, who is still partners with my father in regards to the store. I believe the store opened in 1974 and has been going ever since. It was the first all-baseball shop in town.

[TCMA]

Originally Posted by Cooptown

where it was located in the village

In the early years it was right next to the batting range, steps away from home plate at Doubleday Field. In the late 80's or early 90's they moved across the Doubleday Field parking lot next to the laundromat.

[Cooptown]

Originally Posted by TCMA

In the early years it was right next to the batting range, steps away from home plate at Doubleday Field. In the late 80's or early 90's they moved across the Doubleday Field parking lot next to the laundromat.

Oh my gosh....I know exactly what you are talking about!!!! As a kid, I used to love that store and bought a bunch of old programs, HOF induction cards, etc. from it. It was always very reasonably priced for a kid on a budget. I remember the store next to the batting cages had walls full of 8x10s of both current players and HOFers that I loved looking at.

I still always visit Baseball Nostalgia during my annual trip during HOF weekend. There are certain places where the smells never change from your childhood and elicit an amazing flood of great memories. That store is one of them for me.

[Bliggity]

Looks like the Jumbo has now eclipsed the Gretzky. Currently sitting at $2.88 million with the juice.

[botn]

Looks like it did well but fell well short of where Goldin estimated.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

The Jumbo Wagner closes in 3 days on Saturday Oct. 1. Right now, Wednesday is at $1.9 million. My random crazy guess is ending at $5.5 to $6. million, be shocked if less then $4. million. My question is the (MC) designation - I have only seen severe off center get the (mc) - like (mc) is even worse than (oc). But this card has no (oc) properties, just extra boarder at bottom. Do you think the (mc) is correct for this card?

Guess you are shocked as it sold for 3.185M.....still a tidy sum but for many below expectations..

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by botn

Looks like it did well but fell well short of where Goldin estimated.

as it usually does

[rats60]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Guess you are shocked as it sold for 3.185M.....still a tidy sum but for many below expectations..

Unrealistic expectations. The ~50% increase in a few years should have been expected. A 150-200% or more increase would be the shock.

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

as it usually does

Are you going to follow that jab with a hook?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Bliggity

Looks like the Jumbo has now eclipsed the Gretzky. Currently sitting at $2.88 million with the juice.

For that type of card i wonder how much of that buyers premium the consignor is able to retain back from the auction house...if BP was 20% is it an industry standard for around 18% of that going back to the consignor with the AH only getting 2 percent plus costs etc? Its not like i will ever have that type of card to find out

[Touch'EmAll]

Actually, yes, shocked the Jumbo didn't go higher - bad guess, oh, well. Perhaps I was still in that crazy June high market mindset. The Rose, Ryan and Reggie Jackson fell noticeably below estimate - again perhaps well below what we would have seen if this auction was back in June. Positive note - a lot of pre war did very respectable.

[botn]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

as it usually does

Agreed. It did remarkably well but the projections of 4 to 5 million were laughable and not to be taken seriously.

[Touch'EmAll]

As it usually does. Hmm, Ok, just curious - the last couple times this or the Gretzky copy went up for sale - what were estimates vs. what they closed?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

As it usually does. Hmm, Ok, just curious - the last couple times this or the Gretzky copy went up for sale - what were estimates vs. what they closed?

I believe the point wasn't the record of estimates vs final price for those two cards, but rather a commentary on auction houses and their estimates.

Some traditionally try to estimate conservatively, thus being able to both promote how well some items have done against the estimate and set a reasonable expectation with a consignor. Others estimate higher, perhaps to get the consignment initially, and/or to encourage higher bids.

Either can work, unless it's overdone. Estimate too low, and they might miss out on better consignments hurting the business in the long run. Estimate far too high consistently and the same will happen as the business gets a reputation for underperforming. It's a constant balancing act, and probably quite challenging.

Steve B

[e107collector]

Who the heck spent $315,000 on the LeBron James card!!! Unbelievable!!

Tony

[FourStrikes]

Originally Posted by e107collector

Who the heck spent $315,000 on the LeBron James card!!! Unbelievable!!

Tony

exactly.

and the Wagner is gorgeous, albeit WAAAAAY outta my price range. minus the notoriety of the "trimmed" Wags,
this one is by far a superior - and untainted - example, IMO.

[Snapolit1]

5 million estimate was only off by a couple of mil. Seems a little embarrassing. Is the market that irrational?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

5 million estimate was only off by a couple of mil. Seems a little embarrassing. Is the market that irrational?

no...just the AH.

[botn]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

5 million estimate was only off by a couple of mil. Seems a little embarrassing. Is the market that irrational?

PT Barnum of the hobby. He is never embarrassed. The market is fine and the card exceeded what it could have gone for.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by botn

PT Barnum of the hobby. He is never embarrassed. The market is fine and the card exceeded what it could have gone for.

Funny, I remember a couple years ago when they sold a T206 Cobb/Cobb back for more than expected. One of his employees came on here to remind us how we (I) doubted that he could get that much for the card.
I'm guessing he won't be posting about this auction.

[mechanicalman]

The SGC 98 Ryan Rookie seemed to go for a bargain compared to the one listed on eBay for $795k, or 6x the price. But the Goldin one doesn't come with eBay bucks, so there's that...

[clydepepper]

1957 Drysdale PSA-9 was estimated at 15K, sold for $40K

WOW?


.

[drcy]

Estimates are sometimes nothing more than marketing devices.

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by drcy

Estimates are sometimes nothing more than marketing devices.

However, a good auction house will try to express some idea of what they believe the piece is worth. Really, in the end, if "the deep pockets" are on the scene and have done their research, the auction action will dictate the market price.

Still, 312K for the Lebron James autographed card? --Brian Powell