Mile High Results

[paul]

Which would you rather own: (1) a PSA 9 Cracker Jack Walter Johnson PLUS a PSA 8 o/c Cracker Jack Joe Jackson, or (2) a PSA 10 1970 Topps Reggie Jackson? According to the results of Mile High's auction, it's Reggie by a nose. Why? Why? Why?

[MattyC]

As long as a collector is happy.

[pawpawdiv9]

Umm. I gone the vintage route hands down...the registry is a 'force'

[Peter_Spaeth]

The PSA 10 Rickey RC went for a mere 30K. Good buy.

[Mikehealer]

Originally Posted by MattyC

As long as a collector is happy.

I was thinking drunk, but hopefully he's happy.

[GasHouseGang]

Ludacris is not just a rapper.

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by Mikehealer

I was thinking drunk, but hopefully he's happy.

For me, the two go hand in hand!

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The PSA 10 Rickey RC went for a mere 30K. Good buy.

I think you are joking , but didnt the prior psa 10 go for 20k or so..so a 5k potential profit in a year is serous stuff ? i not check the numbers so can be wrong

[Snapolit1]

One of my issues with these late night closing auctions is the proverbial one drink too many on a slow Friday (or Thursday) night. Feeling good . . . had a nice dinner . . . night is coming to a close . . and now there's something really fun going on. The carnival just showed up in town . . . Pour one more beer and settle in in front of the computer . . . .

Can you spell buyer's remorse . . .

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I think you are joking , but didnt the prior psa 10 go for 20k or so..so a 5k potential profit in a year is serous stuff ? i not check the numbers so can be wrong

Maybe, but let's not pretend this has anything to do with a card. A flip is a commodity that happens to be attached to a card. A 10 grade is a meaningless category created to artificially generate value. So sure, in purely investment terms, flips have value. But they have very little to do with cards, as outside of that holder you couldn't pick that card out of a lineup of 9s.

[Scocs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Maybe, but let's not pretend this has anything to do with a card. A flip is a commodity that happens to be attached to a card. A 10 grade is a meaningless category created to artificially generate value. So sure, in purely investment terms, flips have value. But they have very little to do with cards, as outside of that holder you couldn't pick that card out of a lineup of 9s.

It's like that brilliant scene from the film This Is Spinal Tap when the director, Marty DiBergi, is interviewing the guitarist, Nigel Tufnel, about his amplifier:

Nigel: "You see, most blokes will be playing at 10. You’re on 10, all the way up, all the way up...Where can you go from there? Nowhere. What we do, is if we need that extra push over the cliff...Eleven. One louder."

DiBergi: "Why don’t you just make 10 louder and make 10 be the top number, and make that a little louder?"

Nigel (after taking a moment to let this sink in): "These go to 11."

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Maybe, but let's not pretend this has anything to do with a card. A flip is a commodity that happens to be attached to a card. A 10 grade is a meaningless category created to artificially generate value. So sure, in purely investment terms, flips have value. But they have very little to do with cards, as outside of that holder you couldn't pick that card out of a lineup of 9s.

you are right but same is true for 4's and 5s with 1952 mantles...hard to see a 4 ever go for more than 5 (even though you couldnt tell many of them apart) just because of the flip....

flips have a lot to do with the card hobby..

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

you are right but same is true for 4's and 5s with 1952 mantles...hard to see a 4 ever go for more than 5 (even though you couldnt tell many of them apart) just because of the flip....

flips have a lot to do with the card hobby..

I could distinguish a lot more 4s from 5s than 9s from 10s I promise you.

[Mikehealer]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I could distinguish a lot more 4s from 5s than 9s from 10s I promise you.

Of course you could, anyone could I would imagine.

[Sean1125]

Won my entire group at about 78.6%* of my max bids... Relatively happy...

I had something go 42.3%* of my maximum due to poor a description.

Edit* My numbers were wrong when I initially made this statement. They are now correct.

[iwantitiwinit]

Even if I had 1 billion dollars I would not spend that on a 70 Jackson even if it were a psa 11. Who the f is paying these prices. I mean at that rate an entire 1970 set would cost you over 1 million in psa 10 assuming some of the stars reach relative prices to the Jackson. That is beyond nuts. Really its incomprehensible.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

Even if I had 1 billion dollars I would not spend that on a 70 Jackson even if it were a psa 11. Who the f is paying these prices. I mean at that rate an entire 1970 set would cost you over 1 million in psa 10 assuming some of the stars reach relative prices to the Jackson. That is beyond nuts. Really its incomprehensible.

It's only incomprehensible because you are thinking of it as a card. It's not, it's a commodity.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I could distinguish a lot more 4s from 5s than 9s from 10s I promise you.

Eh, you send in the 4s and 5s to third party graders raw and they cant distinguish..they will come back different all the time.....but you know my point...what about 7s and 8s. for example..there are lots of grades for cards in a specific set that are one grade apart that are very tough to tell the difference yet at auction its thousands of dollars in difference in price....

.one grade difference..and there are other cards out there with the condition of just one grade apart is just as hard to tell as a psa 9 and 10 rookie Jackson..thats my point.

[Mikehealer]

I thought Jacksons rookie card was 1969. I learn something new everyday.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

Won my entire group at about 60% of my max bids... Relatively happy...

I had something go 30% of my maximum due to poor a description.

Sean, No need to be so shy.....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mikehealer

I thought Jacksons rookie card was 1969. I learn something new everyday.

That thing is so ugly I would be reluctant to call it a card.

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Sean, No need to be so shy.....

I went back and did the math so I am factually correct.

[iwantitiwinit]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's only incomprehensible because you are thinking of it as a card. It's not, it's a commodity.

I don't know if I agree with that Peter, while it technically is a commodity by definition all cards are commodities as they are products. I say its incomprehensible because to me the maximum value of the item is significantly less than 30k no matter how you chose to view it as a card, a commodity or an irreplaceable one of a kind item. Again thats just me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

I don't know if I agree with that Peter, while it technically is a commodity by definition all cards are commodities as they are products. I say its incomprehensible because to me the maximum value of the item is significantly less than 30k no matter how you chose to view it as a card, a commodity or an irreplaceable one of a kind item. Again thats just me.

Perhaps I should say a commodity independent of the card to which it is attached -- i.e., a flip.

[Mikehealer]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That thing is so ugly I would be reluctant to call it a card.

I tend to agree with you.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Perhaps I should say a commodity independent of the card to which it is attached -- i.e., a flip.

Quite honestly, and this isn't meant to be a slam at all, but for a registry collector the flip is far more important than the card. As pointed out the difference between a 9 and a 10 is only an opinion. The cards are the same and on any given day the 10 could be a 9. All hail to flips....

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Leon

Quite honestly, and this isn't meant to be a slam at all, but for a registry collector the flip is far more important than the card. As pointed out the difference between a 9 and a 10 is only an opinion. The cards are the same and on any given day the 10 could be a 9. All hail to flips....

Before flips and NM card became Mint depending on who was selling the card in their description.......there is less arguments from online transactions with flips than raw cards....just check out the battlefield threads..... the internet and flips sort of work hand and hand .

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Before flips and NM card became Mint depending on who was selling the card in their description.......there is less arguments from online transactions with flips than raw cards....just check out the battlefield threads..... the internet and flips sort of work hand and hand .

I am not denying that. Grading/authentication by TPG's is good. I am only saying that a 9 can be a 10 and a 10 can be a 9 on any given day. So it's the flip that is the important part to a registry collector not the card. (which is fine too, it doesn't hurt me )

[iwantitiwinit]

I just went through the results of the auction. Am I reading this correctly 194k for a 54 Aaron graded a 9? 194k? 194k? 194k!!!!! Congrats to the consignor. Which model Ferrari will you be buying?

[glynparson]

honestly sold for less than i predicted, i figured 200-250k. Look at what the last 2 Clemente 9s sold for.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I am not denying that. Grading/authentication by TPG's is good. I am only saying that a 9 can be a 10 and a 10 can be a 9 on any given day. So it's the flip that is the important part to a registry collector not the card. (which is fine too, it doesn't hurt me )

Many many 10s are 9s that were bumped. Whether the bumps were impartial or had to do with the identity of the submitter, well, I leave that to you.

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by Leon

Quite honestly, and this isn't meant to be a slam at all, but for a registry collector the flip is far more important than the card. As pointed out the difference between a 9 and a 10 is only an opinion. The cards are the same and on any given day the 10 could be a 9. All hail to flips....

Wanted to add that the same can be said of many other grades. I have played the crack resub game, and had some cards come back very consistently, while others were a 6 one time and a 7.5 another time. Once cracked a 7 and it came back a 9, as I knew the 7 was a total mistake. So the subjectivity abounds at all grades. One can say at the very low grades there is such a fine line-- is a card a 2 or a 3? A 2.5? Tough to parse at that level as well sometimes.

It's also worth noting in this discussion that not all 9s and 10s are indeed the same. Sometimes it is actually easier to parse a 9 from a 10 that a 2 from a 3, if for example the 9 has one tiny flaw that lets you know off the bat it will never 10. Of course, that said, there are many 10-worthy cards hiding in 9 holders. All depends on the unique, individual cards in question. Though guys who find high end 9s and believe in them often will be persistent until they get that 10 on review, so such 9s are becoming scarce. In fact all "high-end" cards, which by that term let us say means a card that looks under graded, are likely becoming scarce at all grades as they are hunted down for sport and reviewed.

Regarding the assertion about Registry Sets, the majority but I hope not all can be characterized that way. It certainly does seem from browsing around there that 99.99% of the sets contain what I would call either over-graded cards or cards with low eye appeal for such high grades-- indicating that, Leon, you are spot on. The interesting thing is that high grade and high eye appeal are not mutually exclusive qualities in a card, and so a beautiful registry set with cards that are all worthy of their high technical grades is very possible, surely some must exist. I am trying to build one such Registry Set, and all I care about is the card, and that it is the exact card I love and am looking to feature for that issue.

[Fred]

It's funny to read that cards are commodities but I guess you can think of them as that. It only takes two people to want something so bad that the final hammer seems ridiculous to most. So, what happens after everyone that want's a "10" Reggie, gets the card? What's the card worth then? It's only one auction away from dropping 50% in value.

I'm not a huge Reggie fan but I tell you what, he could hit that ball and he was a very colorful player in his day. But I'd still rather spend my money on Johnson's, Jackson's and Ruth's so I'm hoping that the "10" Reggie buyers don't become too interested in real vintage stuff (maybe they are).

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Fred

It's funny to read that cards are commodities but I guess you can think of them as that. It only takes two people to want something so bad that the final hammer seems ridiculous to most. So, what happens after everyone that want's a "10" Reggie, gets the card? What's the card worth then? It's only one auction away from dropping 50% in value.

I'm not a huge Reggie fan but I tell you what, he could hit that ball and he was a very colorful player in his day. But I'd still rather spend my money on Johnson's, Jackson's and Ruth's so I'm hoping that the "10" Reggie buyers don't become too interested in real vintage stuff (maybe they are).

don't kid yourself though....theres a bunch in the hobby that love the vintage big name guys that aren't going anywhere Ruth/Johnson etc...

but theres a bunch of PSA 10 or best possible grade collectors out there.....there was that baseball player that only collected 10s...there are a lot of guys that just collect 10s......

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

don't kid yourself though....theres a bunch in the hobby that love the vintage big name guys that aren't going anywhere Ruth/Johnson etc...

but theres a bunch of PSA 10 or best possible grade collectors out there.....there was that baseball player that only collected 10s...there are a lot of guys that just collect 10s......

The Registry was a stroke of genius, even if an accidental one. As was the meaningless IMO grade of Gem Mint.

[Touch'EmAll]

I have bought a few PSA 10's over the years. I seem to be always disappointed. I have never kept a 10 and they always have gone back for refunds, well, except for a 2010 Mike Trout I like. There always is some ticky-tack flaw I don't like. It's too tough to justify the expense, then the hassle of the return and explanation why. Leave them to the registry folks who need an ego boost.

[MetsBaseball1973]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

I have bought a few PSA 10's over the years. I seem to be always disappointed. I have never kept a 10 and they always have gone back for refunds, well, except for a 2010 Mike Trout I like. There always is some ticky-tack flaw I don't like. It's too tough to justify the expense, then the hassle of the return and explanation why. Leave them to the registry folks who need an ego boost.

So is that 2010 Trout you own for an ego boost? Sometimes I want a perfect card, so I gets myself a 10 that merits that assessment. It ain't for an ego boost or a set.

[midmo]

[Touch'EmAll]

Honestly, the 2010 Mike Trout looks correct in the 10 holder to me. Plus I grew up an Angels Fan and lived half hour from Anaheim Stadium as a kid. When I go back down to SoCal and see a game at "The Big A" I kinda get choked up with all the memories. I will always be an Angel fan. And Mike Trout is now their top dog. Those are my reasons for owning that particular card in "10". Sorry I ruffled feathers.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

Honestly, the 2010 Mike Trout looks correct in the 10 holder to me. Plus I grew up an Angels Fan and lived half hour from Anaheim Stadium as a kid. When I go back down to SoCal and see a game at "The Big A" I kinda get choked up with all the memories. I will always be an Angel fan. And Mike Trout is now their top dog. Those are my reasons for owning that particular card in "10". Sorry I ruffled feathers.

If something makes you happy why not go for it? Congrats on a great looking card. Personally, my comments are only for sake of discussion. Some (maybe most) registry collectors are super passionate about collecting. It's a great thing and I think it's great for the hobby. And I wouldn't rail to much on high grade collectors with this....Every time I look at this one, shown 143 times in the last 3 months, I absolutely love it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Oy not again!!!!

[Touch'EmAll]

Leon, Super card! Looks like that 7 is for sure undergraded.

Thinking about it, I am sure there are many fully worthy 10's out there. And like people have said, there are good reasons for going after 10's besides ego, registry and sets. There is pride and passion in owning the best. On the investing side, good chance 10's have outperformed the rest of the market, so kudo's to the savvy investor for having 10's in their collection.

[BeanTown]

So, how accurate are the grading companies numbers and population report which we read on every auction houses description. So, if PSA regrades a card or someone flips it then does PSA adjust the population number?

[MattyC]

Unfortunately, many may not realize the real supply is less than the pop reports indicate. In the cases of some very in-demand cards especially, the true population may be much less in reality than the reports. This is due to the prevalence of the crack and resubmit game. I know of single cards that have been cracked, graded, cracked again, ten or so times. That means ten or so "phantoms" in the pop reports. I take this into consideration when shopping. Meaning that between examples locked up in collections and the phantoms, the true available supply may be much less than one would think at first blush.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Unfortunately, many may not realize the real supply is less than the pop reports indicate. In the cases of some very in-demand cards especially, the true population may be much less in reality than the reports. This is due to the prevalence of the crack and resubmit game. I know of single cards that have been cracked, graded, cracked again, ten or so times. That means ten or so "phantoms" in the pop reports. I take this into consideration when shopping. Meaning that between examples locked up in collections and the phantoms, the true available supply may be much less than one would think at first blush.

right it would be a problem if there were much more of the cards out there that are graded..the fact there are less than the amount stated is the better situation of the 2 when it comes to resell

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by Leon

If something makes you happy why not go for it? Congrats on a great looking card. Personally, my comments are only for sake of discussion. Some (maybe most) registry collectors are super passionate about collecting. It's a great thing and I think it's great for the hobby. And I wouldn't rail to much on high grade collectors with this....Every time I look at this one, shown 143 times in the last 3 months, I absolutely love it.

Leon, I simply can't imagine a nicer looking pre-war card!

JoeT

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by Leon

If something makes you happy why not go for it? Congrats on a great looking card. Personally, my comments are only for sake of discussion. Some (maybe most) registry collectors are super passionate about collecting. It's a great thing and I think it's great for the hobby. And I wouldn't rail to much on high grade collectors with this....Every time I look at this one, shown 143 times in the last 3 months, I absolutely love it.

Great card Leon, but couldn't you show the pin holed Pinkerton Cobb just one more time for old times sake

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

Great card Leon, but couldn't you show the pin holed Pinkerton Cobb just one more time for old times sake

JoeT - Thanks.... I remember the night I won it (the Young). I was mesmerized by it and went for the hail Mary. Fortunately the stars aligned as Heritage had my collection and was about to auction to it, so to paraphrase Chris I. "Sure Leon, spend all you want to, you have good credit".....

I even had this card on one of the Net54baseball T shirts before I got this particular card.

Dave- Someone got a great deal on a great card...This T5 is so nice...... (not mine anymore)

[Bicem]

What about the e90-1 Young do you like so much? Interesting choice considering all the amazing cards that you have owned.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Unfortunately, many may not realize the real supply is less than the pop reports indicate. In the cases of some very in-demand cards especially, the true population may be much less in reality than the reports. This is due to the prevalence of the crack and resubmit game. I know of single cards that have been cracked, graded, cracked again, ten or so times. That means ten or so "phantoms" in the pop reports. I take this into consideration when shopping. Meaning that between examples locked up in collections and the phantoms, the true available supply may be much less than one would think at first blush.

Can you imagine if every significant card had its grading history on it people would be shocked. My favorite stories are those where in addition to wildly divergent grades, they are rejected a couple of times along the way to the final slab.