T206 HOF Candidates

[The Nasty Nati]

This topic may have been discussed several times throughout the years on this forum, but as of 2014 which players in your opinion have the best chance (if any) of making the Hall of Fame? Is it still possible?

From what little research I've done on the subject my picks would be Bill Dahlen, Ginger Beaumont, and Deacon Phillippe. I don't see what all of the hype is about Dahlen, but I know he comes up on a lot on previous ballots. Beaumont had a .311 BA, won a World Series, and in my opinion is better than a good amount of the already inducted T206 HOFers. As for Deacon Phillippe, a 2.59 ERA is pretty good. Maybe his relation to that terrible actor Ryan Phillippe is holding him back from Cooperstown .

Thoughts? Opinions?

[t206hof]

Probably nobody, there are already way too many from the T206 set that do not belong in the hall.

[bender07]

Bill Dinneen as an umpire

[bender07]

Sam Leever is a long shot too. I think he only has a t205, NM

[Kenny Cole]

Anyone who doubts Dahlen must have difficulty understanding what the numbers mean in the context of the time in which he played. He was arguably the best shortstop from the mid to late 1890s to 1907 or so, other than Wagner, and should have been in long ago. I can see an argument for Herman Long, but I would personally pick Dahlen first.

Phillippe falls into the same category as do a large number of pitchers with similar stats from that era, some of who are in, many of whom are not. See, e.g., Sam Leever, Babe Adams, Ed Reulbach, Jesse Tanehill, Al Orth, etc. Their numbers are every bit as good as some of those who have been elected, in some cases better, but they will continue be on the outside looking in.

Beaumont was a great player with a short career, so he probably won't make it. The same with Donlin. Larry Doyle was an awesome player at a position the HOF hasn't honored too much. I would have no heartburn were he to be elected, but it isn't going to happen any time soon. Jack Quinn was the Tommy John of his era, long career, pretty decent stats. I doubt John has as good a claim for induction as does Quinn, but if either one gets in, it will be John under a primacy and recency theory.

[daves_resale_shop]

what about Gavvy Gravath???

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by daves_resale_shop

what about Gavvy Gravath???

Forgot about him. Sherry Magee too. I'd pick Magee over Cravath for pure body of work, but Cravath sure parked a few for his time period, even if many of them were in the Baker Bowl.

[ATP]

Larry Doyle was quite the player for a period of time and I hope at some point garners consideration.

[z28jd]

Dahlen missed election in Dec. 2012 by two votes from the Veteran's Committee. Assuming they use common sense and put him on the next ballot in Dec 2015, then he would be the leading candidate.

According to the voting process, each voter had up to four players they could choose and with 16 voters, that made a maximum total of 64 votes. Jacob Ruppert and Hank O'Day each got 15 votes, while Deacon White got 14, leaving a maximum of 20 other votes if everyone voted for four people. Dahlen got ten of those possible 20 votes, while the other six guys on the ballot all got less than three votes and obviously ten or less votes between all of them.

That would make Dahlen an overwhelming favorite to be elected in Dec 2015 using the common sense method. His biggest three challenges on the ballot are all off it now and enshrined.

No other T206 guys were on the ballot.

Just to clarify, I mentioned common sense twice, because this is the HOF we are talking about and they don't exactly have the best track record.

[Sean]

A couple guy beat me to it, but Dahlen is the most deserving.

[t206hof]

In my opinion Dahlen should not be in. There are just too many people in that do not belong. It should be the absolute best players and its not.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by t206hof

In my opinion Dahlen should not be in. There are just too many people in that do not belong. It should be the absolute best players and its not.

SABR people have got into the head of the voters and Dahlen ranks 45th all-time in WAR. All these people who are jumping to put Derek Jeter in on the first ballot(which he should be) should be pushing Dahlen in ahead of him because he was the better player at the same position.

If you go by WAR, Dahlen was the seventh best position player in the first 40 years of baseball, that is top of the class.

[Bpm0014]

Tannehill. Reulbach. Geo Mullin. Quinn. All have decent stats with decent ERAs.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by t206hof

In my opinion Dahlen should not be in. There are just too many people in that do not belong. It should be the absolute best players and its not.

LOL, that dream ended in 1946 and its a tired argument. Dahlen would bring up the quality of the hall, particularly at SS, not decrease it. That is also true for many others, such as Magee, against whom the same argument is made.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Forgot about him. Sherry Magee too. I'd pick Magee over Cravath for pure body of work, but Cravath sure parked a few for his time period, even if many of them were in the Baker Bowl.

Cravath's power was purely the result of the ridiculousness of Baker Bowl. As an example, in 1914, he led the National League in home runs with 19. All 19 of Cravath's home runs that year occurred at Baker Bowl. For his career, Cravath never hit more than five home runs on the road in any season. Seventy-eight percent of Cravath's career home runs occurred at Baker Bowl.

http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/35282ccd

[wolf441]

He's not even close to deserving consideration, but if you look at Nap Rucker's career numbers, you can't help wondering where he might have wound up had he been with a better team.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by wolf441

He's not even close to deserving consideration, but if you look at Nap Rucker's career numbers, you can't help wondering where he might have wound up had he been with a better team.

That view was shared by Mother Rucker.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

That view was shared by Mother Rucker.

Frank, don't be such a Mother Rucker.

Brian (Pun Puckerer)

[baker85]

I'm glad someone mentioned dineen. He should be in. He is already a pseudo hall of famer because he made the hall of fame honor roll one year.Just transition him in already.

[btcarfagno]

Sherry Magee should be in the Hall without question. Forget counting stats. His lifetime 137 OPS+ shows what kind of offensive force he was. Such a forgotten superstar.

Tom C

[T2069bk]

If not for that poem Kling would be in - he was truly the backbone of that team.

[CMIZ5290]

definitely Bill Dahlen....Johnny Kling as a long shot....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

LOL, that dream ended in 1946 and its a tired argument. Dahlen would bring up the quality of the hall, particularly at SS, not decrease it. That is also true for many others, such as Magee, against whom the same argument is made.

Here is my argument against Magee. 1951 was plenty of time to judge him, and his .291 batting average.

Hall of Fame
1937 BBWAA ( 1.0%)
1938 BBWAA ( 0.8%)
1939 BBWAA ( 0.4%)
1942 BBWAA ( 0.4%)
1945 BBWAA ( 0.4%)
1946 Nominating Vote ( 0.5%)
1950 BBWAA ( 0.6%)
1951 BBWAA ( 0.9%)

But let me add this, for context.

Similar Batters
View Similar Player Links in Pop-up
Compare Stats to Similars
1.Wally Moses (896)
2.Bobby Veach (881)
3.Joe Judge (880)
4.Ben Chapman (877)
5.Joe Kelley (869) *
6.Ed Konetchy (869)
7.Ken Griffey (869)
8.Dixie Walker (867)
9.Willie McGee (865)
10.Jose Cruz (863)

EDIT TO ADD I wouldn't vote for Dahlen, but given his ranking as the 10th best SS under the JAWS system, it at least wouldn't be a joke.

[CMIZ5290]

Ed Reulbach is another pitcher that should definitely be in the Hall.... Would love to see comparable stats between him and 3 Finger Brown....Does anyone have those handy?

[wonkaticket]

Dahlen & Rucker....or any other common I own with a tougher back would be ok by me too.

[bundy462]

When/if Dahlen gets in, which seems likely, what does that do to the price of his Brooklyn T206 card? Opinions?

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by bundy462

When/if Dahlen gets in, which seems likely, what does that do to the price of his Brooklyn T206 card? Opinions?

Can't imagine it getting much higher. Just my 2 cents....

[Bpm0014]

Reulbach 182-106 2.28
Three Finger Brown 239-130 2.06

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

Reulbach 182-106 2.28
Three Finger Brown 239-130 2.06

Brendan, thanks a lot. Any stats on K's vs. BB's?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Cmon.


Hall Of Fame Statistics

Player rank in (·)


Black Ink Pitching - 13 (172), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink Pitching - 123 (149), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 101 (98), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 44 (54), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS Starting Pitcher (197th), 36.6 career WAR/32.3 7yr-peak WAR/34.5 JAWS
Average HOF P (out of 57) = 72.6 career WAR/50.2 7yr-peak WAR/61.4 JAWS

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Cmon.


Hall Of Fame Statistics

Player rank in (·)


Black Ink Pitching - 13 (172), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink Pitching - 123 (149), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 101 (98), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 44 (54), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS Starting Pitcher (197th), 36.6 career WAR/32.3 7yr-peak WAR/34.5 JAWS
Average HOF P (out of 57) = 72.6 career WAR/50.2 7yr-peak WAR/61.4 JAWS

Peter- thanks for the info and stats...So how in the hell does Eppa Rixey get in the Hall??

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Peter- thanks for the info and stats...So how in the hell does Eppa Rixey get in the Hall??

Same could be asked for quite a few guys. There have been some really atrocious choices, and then the remedy seemed to be to vote more undeserving players in because they were as good or better than the ones who shouldn't have been voted in. The old slippery slope.

[CMIZ5290]

Agreed. Having said that, Eppa Rixey in this discussion is a joke. Record 266-251, ERA 3.18, and his strike out and walk totals are incredibly close 1,350 K's, 1,082 BB's....I'm missing something here.... Another one I dont understand is Rabbit Maranville....

[packs]

Well while I can't speak for his stats, Rixey was the winningest lefty in National League history when he retired. Must have been well liked amongst the voting committee for him to get in though.

[Bpm0014]

Reulbach IP 2632 K 1137 BB 892
Three Finger IP 3172 K 1375 BB 673

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Agreed. Having said that, Eppa Rixey in this discussion is a joke. Record 266-251, ERA 3.18, and his strike out and walk totals are incredibly close 1,350 K's, 1,082 BB's....I'm missing something here.... Another one I dont understand is Rabbit Maranville....

Maranville was a valuable player during his day. Again, if you like using WAR, defensively he is the 7th best player ever. He is the all-time leader in putouts at shortstop and no one in baseball history has as many assists as he does. That has to count for something, and really, it isn't even close between him and Ozzie Smith in second place. He got MVP votes in eight of the seasons he played and in nine seasons he played, they didn't have MVP votes.

With Rixey, they say he got a lot of attention when Spahn broke his record for wins by an NL lefty and they figured if Spahn was so great, how is the old record holder not in the Hall of Fame.

I sometimes wonder why people assume certain players don't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame when just a few years into the process they were put in there. Isn't it possible that the original people got it right and it's just changed over time due to newer voter errors? If that is true, then that doesn't make the older votes a mistake, it makes the people voting now wrong.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Great point about the way voting used to be.

[slipk1068]

Mike Donlin

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by z28jd

.

I sometimes wonder why people assume certain players don't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame when just a few years into the process they were put in there. Isn't it possible that the original people got it right and it's just changed over time due to newer voter errors? If that is true, then that doesn't make the older votes a mistake, it makes the people voting now wrong.

LOL. what I think it means is that the folks who want to weigh in now (hi Peter Speath) have zero idea what the important voting criteria was/were at the time. Tommy McCarthy may seem like a bad pick now, but I'm pretty sure he was elected because the voters in 1946 thought he deserved election. Its a pretty simple concept. What is deemed important now may not have been so much earlier.

[packs]

McCarthy is a head scratcher too. On the one hand he scored 100 runs 7 years in a row. On the other, nothing else is there really. But he may have also stolen many more bases than he is credited for.

From what I've read his selection had a lot to do with his contributions to the game. He is credited by some to have invented the hit and run play.

[leaflover]

When he was behind the plate the Cubs won! Kling was a winner!!
His numbers are just a bit short of Bresnahans.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by z28jd

I sometimes wonder why people assume certain players don't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame when just a few years into the process they were put in there. Isn't it possible that the original people got it right and it's just changed over time due to newer voter errors? If that is true, then that doesn't make the older votes a mistake, it makes the people voting now wrong.

If we didn't question it several years later than people like George “High Pockets” Kelly wouldn't be in the HOF

[Topps206]

Of the T206 players not in the Hall of Fame that I think should be in, four make the list: Gavvy Cravath, Bill Dahlen, Larry Doyle and Sherry Magee.