Problem with Legendary Lot . . . Opinions?

[vargha]

First of all, this isn't a hit and run post. I do need to leave the computer for a couple of hours or so, but I will be back to answer any questions as well as to respond to posts. Here's the situation:

I won the lot of 10 Oxford Confectionery cards slabbed by SGC in the recent Legendary auction. The description was minimal, and the scans were a tad small in my opinion for what I am about to describe. When the cards came in, the four SGC 10 Pete Alexander cards all had damage that was not evident from the scans. Three of them have four small holes apiece where the cardboard is gone (not just thin spots). The fourth card has a half-inch gouge (indentation) on the front that ends in a small pinhole-sized hole. Two of the Alexander cards have scrapbook/back damage. That wasn't disclosed, but was evident enough from the pictures, so I factored that into my bid.

I called Jeff Marren (VP of Operations) today at Legendary. We spoke for about ten minutes on this. Without going into the details yet, what do you think should have been done on Legendary's part both before and after the sale? Areas of discussion might include, but are not limited to, due diligence on my (buyer's) part, disclosure requirements, if any, on graded cards, especially card graded "1", value of the lot/cards with or without the damage, obligations on Legendary's part (if any) post-sale, etc.

Like I said, I will fill in all of the details in a bit. Fire away, please!

http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDeta...ntoryid=160555

[oldjudge]

You had ample time to ask questions about the cards before you bid. Unless Legendary had something in their description that was wrong I think this one is one you.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't think a seller has an obligation to go into detail about the defects on a card with the lowest possible grade, as long as it doesn't misrepresent anything. If it was important, you should have asked for a bigger scan.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't think a seller has an obligation to go into detail about the defects on a card with the lowest possible grade, as long as it doesn't misrepresent anything. If it was important, you should have asked for a bigger scan.

+1

[Bpm0014]

+2. When you buy a PSA1 or SCG10, pinholes, back damage, and scrap book remnants are expected. Not trying to sound harsh, but you're always allowed to ask for better scans. Sorry.

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

+2. When you buy a PSA1 or SCG10, pinholes, back damage, and scrap book remnants are expected. Not trying to sound harsh, but you're always allowed to ask for better scans. Sorry.

You can assume if a card looks VG or VGEX but is in a "1" holder that it has a technical problem that just might not detract from eye appeal even if you aren't spotting it.

[scooter729]

I had been bidding on the same lot as well. I hadn't seen the lot until the last day or so, so I didn't have time to delve with any further questions, so I went with what was given.

Since you could see some of the issues on the cards, I assumed worst case scenarios on those I couldn't see which were graded SGC 10's and assumed there were other faults which I couldn't see. I think my max bid was about $1,000 all-in, expecting there could be some other issues which weren't totally clear.

I can understand where you're coming from and could see both sides - not sure exactly how to proceed, as it's a bit of a tricky one, since the scans could've been better (a Heritage scan wouldn't have this issue), but you could've asked questions ahead of time....

[Peter_Spaeth]

The scans are just small. They aren't deceptive.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't think a seller has an obligation to go into detail about the defects on a card with the lowest possible grade, as long as it doesn't misrepresent anything. If it was important, you should have asked for a bigger scan.

What about omissions? I'm on the fence about this one, but how hard is it for the seller to say that some of the cards have pinholes, particularly when the scans are so small that it can be reasonably argued, imo, that they were made that way to be intentionally deceptive? IMO, a seller like legendary shouldn't really be relying on caveat emptor to defend a shitty description. It's just bad business.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The cards are 1s, for gosh sake. If the emptor cares about just how bad the carnage on the 1s is, the emptor can send an email or pick up the phone.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The cards are 1s, for gosh sake. If the emptor cares about just how bad the carnage on the 1s is, the emptor can send an email or pick up the phone.

There are 1s and there are 1s. You know that Peter, so please don't pretend otherwise. Having a bunch of pinholes in a card is way different than slight back damage or other stuff that can get a card a 1. Legendary knows that too. Yet it presents the lot with scans that you would need an electron microscope to see and can't mention, on a $3000 lot, that the defects are what most collectors would consider to be among the worst defects possible?

OK. I get it. We will once again have to agree to disagree. I certainly think there could have been more due diligence on the part of the buyer, but I also think it could be argued that the scans and description (or lack thereof) were predatory. I hope it gets resolved, but I have to say that I will think more than twice before I ever bid in a Legendary auction again. That's why I think that, even if Legendary can use an ambiguous description and shitty scans to slide by (legally speaking), its just bad business.

[nsaddict]

Perhaps bigger scans or the potential bidder could have requested such as many have stated. But we are talking about sgc 10's...what was expected??

[bobbyw8469]

Agreed! We are talking about the lowest grade SGC gives?!?!?

[vargha]

Originally Posted by nsaddict

Perhaps bigger scans or the potential bidder could have requested such as many have stated. But we are talking about sgc 10's...what was expected??

So to play devil's advocate, lets say I have an SGC 10 that was ripped horizontally in the lower half, about a third of the way across the card. As it lays it in the slab, it isn't obvious at first blush in a smaller scan but is obvious when looked at with the naked eye. I list it on eBay with smaller scans. A bidder asks if there are any holes in the card that can't be seen. To gain credibility I post his question on my auction and "guarantee" that there are no holes. Am I still cool? It's an SGC 10 after all.

[vargha]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't think a seller has an obligation to go into detail about the defects on a card with the lowest possible grade, as long as it doesn't misrepresent anything. If it was important, you should have asked for a bigger scan.

Do you think it would be okay for me to sell these cards in a private transaction or on eBay without disclosing what I now know about them unless directly asked? If not, why not?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vargha

Do you think it would be okay for me to sell these cards in a private transaction or on eBay without disclosing what I now know about them unless directly asked? If not, why not?

Yes. They are SGC 1s and accurately graded, and if you don't say anything beyond that I don't think that's deceptive. But if you mention one defect but not another, I think you start to cross the line.

[vargha]

Hi all. Like Leon said, Charter was down for the last 4-5 hours, so sorry about the delays. I'm not trying to be coy or shifty on this, and I will disclose what happened on the phone call as well as my thoughts. However, if if you all will humor me, I'd like to discuss this a bit and see if we have any consensus on general listing and bidding ettiquette and responsibilities/culpabilities. So I'd like to deal with some of these issues on separate posts to keep it simpler (at least for me). Also, feel free to jump in at any time even if I am not directing a question at you.

Originally Posted by oldjudge

You had ample time to ask questions about the cards before you bid. Unless Legendary had something in their description that was wrong I think this one is one you.

This sentiment, or something similar was posted a few times. Here are some questions I have.

1. Does this apply to any sale, including private sales and eBay auctions?

2. Is omission okay as long as there was no intent to directly deceive?

3. If you sold a card and found it had a serious flaw afterward, would you try to do anything? (Why/Why not?)

4. Is caveat emptor the rule of the day as long as the card is slabbed by PSA or SGC? What if it is raw?