The AntiquesRoadshow Boston Red Stockings appraisal airs...

[swarmee]

Monday night on your local PBS station. This is the one they appraised for $1 million this past summer. Figured you might want to tune if you are looking for something to watch tomorrow night.

[MVSNYC]

Thanks for the heads up...what is the item(s)?

[swarmee]

Early pictures and letters from the Wrights as well as small cabinet cards of many players.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_5669247.html

[KCRfan1]

I'll tune in. Thanks for the tip!

[iowadoc77]

Love watching this kind of stuff. So cool for the people who own it. Why can't I ever get ahold of something like that?

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by iowadoc77

Love watching this kind of stuff. So cool for the people who own it. Why can't I ever get ahold of something like that?

Hey Eric, get in line. 😎

[jbsports33]

Thanks for the post and the heads-up

Jimmy

[Comiskey]

Have they already been consigned? REA?

Jeff

[Donscards]

Just watched the show. Very interesting I would say the appraisal was a bit high where the cards were trimmed---also interesting signatures of the Wright Brothers and Spalding with their notations on the hotel. The owner was stunned when she heard the price. But anyway interesting cards---I wonder what the real worth is---I would say record prices for one of a kind pieces---time will tell and what auction will they appear in.

[Djnova23]

The woman said its for insurance purposes only. Safe deposit box. You won't see that again.

[GaryPassamonte]

I was disappointed with the segment. I believe Dunbar didn't even acknowledge the "cards" were Mort Rogers scorecard covers. They are also not one of a kind, although extremely rare. The beautiful Boston composite photo wasn't mentioned and is probably, excepting the autographed letter, the most valuable piece in the collection. This is a great artifact that required more air time and more detailed coverage.

[barrysloate]

The collection was of course grossly overvalued, but it is still an amazing grouping of Boston artifacts, with a great story attached. Her ancestor knew the players on the team, and housed them.

As Gary said, those were the front covers of Mort Rogers scorecards, and were badly trimmed, but the photos on them are wonderful. Also, neither Spalding nor Wright's signature are that rare. Spalding signed countless copies of his book, and Wright's scorebooks alone have dozens and dozens of signatures.

But as original finds go, this one is still spectacular. In auction, I think the lot would go for 150-200K, perhaps somewhat more given the Roadshow hype.

[MVSNYC]

Hi Barry, I don't know that much at all about 19th century pieces, but my gut tells me you're much closer to the value than Dunbar.

[barrysloate]

Leila is enthusiastic, and knows her antiques, but she's a bit off on this one. Incidentally, she and I worked together during the cataloguing of the Barry Halper sale.

[Fred]

Article about the show:

Monday night's episode of "Antiques Roadshow" saw one of the most valuable archives ever seen on the show.

A rare photographic baseball card collection of the Boston Red Stockings worth at least $1 million.

"If you're going to insure it, I would insure it for at least $1 million," said appraiser Leila Dunbar on "Antiques Roadshow."

"Are you serious? Oh my!" said the collection's owner.

Yes, this lucky lady inherited the collection of 1871 baseball cards from her great-great-grandmother, who housed the Boston baseball team in her boardinghouse for a short time.

She told the "Antiques Roadshow" appraiser most of the players came from the Cincinnati Red Stockings and were some of the first to get paid to play baseball.

Among those players were Harry and George Wright and sporting goods king Albert Spaulding. Talk about some famous people!

And addition to the cards, the owner also inherited a letter in which all of the players wrote a short, personal message to her great-great-grandmother and signed.

The appraiser said the signatures on the letter accounted for a big chunk of that $1 million price tag.
Fans of the show on Twitter couldn't believe how much the card collection ended up being worth.

And even the appraiser seemed surprised, calling the archive one of the greatest she's seen on the Roadshow.

But the owner isn't going to cash in on this grand slam of a collection anytime soon - she says she wants to keep it in the family.

[prewarsports]

Interesting that the other signatures of the non-hall of famers on that letter were not even mentioned, but are worth more than the Wright and Spalding as well. Many of the others players have no known autographs or in some cases only 1 or 2 known to exist.

WAY overvalued, but really cool and you can pretty much insure anything for as much as you want as long as you are willing to pay the company the premium to insure it for that much.

I agree the "archive" is probably worth closer to 200K with the letter probably being the most valuable individual piece but possibly the team photo.

[The Nasty Nati]

Has Roadshow posted the video or a link to view it online?

[GaryPassamonte]

Rhys- I'm still lamenting the Dodgers and Mariners not making the World Series. I was all set to come for a visit.

[CardboardCollector]

Originally Posted by The Nasty Nati

Has Roadshow posted the video or a link to view it online?

Antiques Roadshow - Sports Memorabilia Find

It's at 48:14 into the video.

[prewarsports]

This is the year, I can feel it, a Seahawks and Mariners sweep!

Were any of the Mort Rogers featured previously uncatalogued? I don't remember seeing a Spalding or either of the Wrights come up for auction in the past.

[h2oya311]

In a previous thread, there was mention of a Warren Studios CDV (or Cabinet) of Spalding in the collection. Do you know if there was truth to this? I didn't get a good look at the photo next to the team Cabinet.

[bgar3]

Derek, there did appear to be a Warren Spalding cdv.

[Rollingstone206]

...

[GaryPassamonte]

Adam,
An example of each of the Mort Rogers scorecards was auctioned in 2000 by REA. In that auction there also were eleven different Boston players. It appears that the Boston Mort Rogers checklist may be complete at eleven players.

[SushiX37]

I haven't been here for a while, but I kinda knew a few people would take their shots at this segment. Makes me sad that people have to piss on stuff like this. It's a great find, why can't it just be enjoyed?

Rich

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

Adam,
An example of each of the Mort Rogers scorecards was auctioned in 2000 by REA. In that auction there also were eleven different Boston players. It appears that the Boston Mort Rogers checklist may be complete at eleven players.

Thanks for the info, Gary.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by SushiX37

I haven't been here for a while, but I kinda knew a few people would take their shots at this segment. Makes me sad that people have to piss on stuff like this. It's a great find, why can't it just be enjoyed?

Rich

The people you say took shots at the segment also noted how cool the items were. The story got some heavy circulation tonight and it was due to the price, not the items. If these pieces did go up for auction and someone considered investing in them, wouldn't it be nice for them to know what the actual value is? As it stands without knowing any better, someone could see a "million dollar collection" going for only 20% what the tv said it was worth and think they are getting the steal of the century.

I honestly don't think one person here would say it's no big deal, but at the same time everyone now gets a lesson in what they are and their value.

[EvilKing00]

Olbermann rips the road show!


http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/01/keit...iques-roadshow

[ullmandds]

say what u want...but I love Keith!

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

say what u want...but I love Keith!

im not a big fan of his - but I like that he called out this issue and I loved what he said about the HOF -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOPg...layer_embedded

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

im not a big fan of his - but I like that he called out this issue and I loved what he said about the HOF -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOPg...layer_embedded

Keith is a crusader for the truth! Like me!!!!!

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by SushiX37

I haven't been here for a while, but I kinda knew a few people would take their shots at this segment. Makes me sad that people have to piss on stuff like this. It's a great find, why can't it just be enjoyed?

Rich

We are all enjoying it. I know I am. I just think the lot is overvalued. Doesn't detract from my enjoyment though.

[oldjudge]

Keith was exactly right. The find was great, but the owner was mislead as to what its' true value is.

[pgellis]

Was I seeing something else, or did they really mount the "cards", photos and letters on that board with thumb tacks?

[jcmtiger]

Originally Posted by pgellis

Was I seeing something else, or did they really mount the "cards", photos and letters on that board with thumb tacks?

Those are magnets

Joe

[pgellis]

Ahhhh............Thanks. I didn't think that they were that stupid.

[John V]

I wonder what effect this has on Roadshow's reputation?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by John V

I wonder what effect this has on Roadshow's reputation?

NIL...not many people really care as much as we do!

[z28jd]

Something like this will probably help the show because of the exposure the show got. Most people won't hear/realize that their expert was off by a lot. As for Olbermann pointing out the mistakes, a lot of sources online tried to make him look like the bad guy for knocking the lady's new found fortune.

[tbob]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

say what u want...but I love Keith!

+1. He can be surly at times but he's right more than people want to give him credit for.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Leila is enthusiastic, and knows her antiques, but she's a bit off on this one. Incidentally, she and I worked together during the cataloguing of the Barry Halper sale.

I guess it's hard to be too harsh when you actually know someone. I can comment at arms length. She was right that they are valuable, but that's about all. She was purporting to be a 19thC baseball memorabilia expert, yet she obviously did not know what these were - she did not even know what to google. In fact, if you just go to google images and type in Dave Birdsall or Harry Wright (or probably any of the others) and scroll down a bit, you see Mort Rogers cards. It makes one wonder how good or bad they are on all the other stuff.

I know the appraisers must be under time pressure, but if you don't know it's better to say you don't know. Or better yet, post a scan and a question on net54.

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

It makes one wonder how good or bad they are on all the other stuff.

+1

That's my question. I'm betting there are online forums like ours for art, pottery, glassware, furniture, etc. that rip on other valuations Antiques Roadshow comes up with all the time. We just don't hear about it because we're not into collecting that stuff.

Regardless, Antiques Roadshow is a great show and I enjoy watching it to see what people have and where they got it from. Definitely makes you dream of unearthing a 'find', though!

jeff

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by tbob

+1. He can be surly at times but he's right more than people want to give him credit for.

yup! Agreed!

[the 'stache]

I know some of you have worked with Leila before. I do not doubt she has areas of expertise, or that she is well respected in her field. Otherwise, she would not be on Antiques Roadshow. That being said, she was absolutely terrible in this segment. As Keith Olbermann has already pointed out, she pretty much whiffed on everything she said. The worst part about her interaction with the owner, however, was her advice vis a vis insuring the collection. Typically, appraisers do not have what would be considered a fiduciary responsibility when estimating worth, or providing advice. But based on the owner's reaction, she had absolutely no idea that what she had so valuable. And unless somebody else tells her that appraiser grossly overvalued what was presented, the owner is going to overspend by a great deal. And that bothers me.

What would it cost to insure a million dollar memorabilia collection on an annual basis?

[the 'stache]

Oh yeah, and not to get lost in the shuffle, the collection itself, and the story behind it, are amazing.

Imagine if a letter showed up with the following: "hey Bertha, I am missing your home made hamburger stew. Even though the Yankees stay at some of the finest hotels across America, they don't know how to cook like you do. As such, I've had to survive on hot dogs and soda pop at the park. If this keeps up, I'm going to lose my girlish figure. How will I chase the dames then?" --the Babe

It's just a shame that this isn't getting more coverage. That the names A.G. Spalding and Harry Wright aren't well known across America (outside of hobbyists and baseball enthusiasts) is a real shame. These were the pioneers of the National Pastime. But then again, the average American can't name the three branches of our federal government, and if asked what kind of government we have, eight out of ten Americans would say "a democracy".

And while signatures of Misters Spalding and Wright may not be truly rare, having both of their signatures on one piece of paper is pretty darn cool. I'd certainly love to have something like that in my safe deposit box!

[ullmandds]

bill...i have to disagree regarding your comment on lack of publicity. I have friends...aquaintences...family members sharing this story with me...as they know I live and breath this stuff...it has permeated the public consciousness...like the black swamp find years ago...how much more publicity can one expect?

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Oh yeah, and not to get lost in the shuffle, the collection itself, and the story behind it, are amazing.

Imagine if a letter showed up with the following: "hey Bertha, I am missing your home made hamburger stew. Even though the Yankees stay at some of the finest hotels across America, they don't know how to cook like you do. As such, I've had to survive on hot dogs and soda pop at the park. If this keeps up, I'm going to lose my girlish figure. How will I chase the dames then?" --the Babe

It's just a shame that this isn't getting more coverage. That the names A.G. Spalding and Harry Wright aren't well known across America (outside of hobbyists and baseball enthusiasts) is a real shame. These were the pioneers of the National Pastime. But then again, the average American can't name the three branches of our federal government, and if asked what kind of government we have, eight out of ten Americans would say "a democracy".

And while signatures of Misters Spalding and Wright may not be truly rare, having both of their signatures on one piece of paper is pretty darn cool. I'd certainly love to have something like that in my safe deposit box!

[drcy]

The show is intended for the general public not SABR members.

I think it's an entertaining show and I know little about a lot of what is appraised. My only problem with the show is it is too $$-centric, so it becomes to be a bit of a game show after before long and that part can become a bore. But I enjoy seeing the different stuff I know little about.

I don't fully understand appraising-- 'appraising insurance purposes' or 'replacement value' apparently means for more than normal price. The show often uses 'retail price' and we all know what that means. They sometimes say 'value at auction' or 'value at auction on a good day.' I'm not sure they they use a single standard for pricing, and I've seen items within my realm of knowledge where I thought the appraisal was low. I've seen instances where the appraisal is based directly on past (and varying) auction realized prices, which is as reasonable a way to price as any. Also, appraising has to have a large margin of error, in part because as many of us know if you auction the same item twice it will sell for two prices . . . So I take appraising and appraisal prices with a large of grain of salt, and the show's appraisal standards seem to differ from item to item, from retail to what a real person might actually get.

Another thing is, a lot of the items shown on the show are unique historic items and appraising the value really is an educated guess. For example, no one here, nor Mr. Olbermann (nor REA nor Lelands nor Heritage nor etc), knows exactly what the Mort Rogers collection would sell for at auction. I've just listed numerous hobby experts (including many board readers) and they don't know. Know one knows to what dollar amount the collection's provenance will effect the final value of the score cards, in part, because the desirability of provenance varies greatly between baseball card collectors. Some think it's great that a 1958 Topps belonged to Sandy Koufax, while others don't care. And the exact ownership here isn't the estate of Harry Wright but of estate of the team's landlady. I know of no landlady provenance financial calculator. Though I'm sure the provenance of the collection will raise the value of the collection, as the items came from team members, comes from the estate who directly knew them and the story is interesting.

[Tao_Moko]

I too thought that this find was well publicized and agree with drcy's comments above.

1. It's a TV show
2. Replacement value and worth vs. Current auction price is a big difference for the sake of insuring. Good luck replacing this collection so even if you paid $200k you'd certainly insure for much more even if not $1 million.

The same as I credit cards like the Wagner for bringing troves of goodies from attics across the States; I think finds like this help draw attention to those family heirlooms not yet shared.

Fun piece to watch and amazing find.

[tbob]

I remember the find of 312 cello packs of 1958 Topps football cards on Roadshow 6 years ago which is more valuable than this collection. I'd still rather have the 1914 CJ set which popped up on Roadshow a few years ago.