The Scoundrel HOF

[frankbmd]

It seems to be HOF thread season so let me so bold to add "The Scoundrel HOF".

To qualify a player, manager, coach, owner or umpire must be compared to other scoundrels of their era. Statistics are definitely a secondary consideration for the selection committee. I'm looking for corkers, spitters, bribers, corruption of all types and especially felons.

Please nominate no more than three selections in your post and if possible make it three from different eras. I will keep a tally (vote count) and after 426 posts, the top ten on the list will be inducted into "The Scoundrel HOF".

I will get the ball rolling by nominating

Hal Chase
Pete Rose
Barry Bonds

The nominations will be added and updated periodically below. Currently 4 nominations qualifies for the top ten. I am not going to check for cheating and if you listed more than three, they are all counted. And we are using Chicago voting rules, vote early and vote often. Totals below through Post #120:

1 Braun, Ryan 13
2 Bonds, Barry 11
3 Rose 8
4 Clemens 8
5 Rodriguez, Alex 8
6 Cobb 6
7 Urbina 5
8 McGwire 5
9 Selig 4
10 Bergen 4
11 Anson 4
12 Chase 3
13 Sosa 3
14 Hall, Mel 3
15 Landis 3
16 Gandil 3
17 Jackson, Joe 3
18 Miller, Marvin 3
19 Chapman 2
20 Boggs 2
21 Canseco 2
22 Marichal 2
23 Powell, Jake 2
24 DiMaggio, Joe 2
25 Devlin, Jim 2
26 McLain 2
27 Howe, Steve 2
28 Curtis 2
29 Cedeno 1
30 Cepeda 1
31 Risberg 1
32 Kingman 1
33 Dykstra 1
34 Belle 1
35 Gooden 1
36 Strawberry 1
37 Thomson, Hank 1
38 Cicotte 1
39 Williams, Lefty 1
40 Comiskey 1
41 Scott, Mike 1
42 Perry, Gaylord 1
43 Speaker 1
44 Hornsby 1
45 Bradley, Milton 1
46 Mays, Carl 1
47 Burns, Bill 1
48 Palmiero 1
49 Hall, George 1
50 Tebeau, Pat 1
51 Fehr 1
52 Ramirez 1
53 Justice 1
54 Piazza 1
55 Caminiti 1
56 Machado 1
57 Niekro, Joe 1
58 Robison bros 1
59 McGraw 1
60 Hoyt, Lamarr 1
61 Nettles 1
62 Pineda 1
63 Mantle 1
64 Mays, Willie 1
65 Bouchee 1
66 Neel 1
67 Dukes 1
68 Giles, Brian 1
69 Comiskey 1
70 Puckett 1

[Vintagecatcher]

Hi Frank,

Here are my 3 for the scoundrel HOF.

Ty Cobb
Joe Jackson
Roger Clemons

Patrick

[Eric72]

Ty Cobb
Mel Hall
Ugeth Urbina

[ksabet]

My three:


Pete Rose
Ugueth Urbina
Denny Mclain

[bn2cardz]

So are they the best player that also happen to be scoundrels? Or is this the biggest scoundrel of their era?

If it is the biggest scoundrel without any care for on the field play than here are mine:

Marty Bergen

César Cedeño

Ugueth Urbina

[frankbmd]

I think we may have a closer, in more ways than one.

[Bocabirdman]

Let us nor forget Orlando Cepeda and his suitcase of weed.

[Jayworld]

Charles Risberg
Barry Bonds
Ryan Braun

[slipk1068]

From what I have read, Dave Kingman and Joe DiMaggio are/were not nice guys.

edit: Lenny Dykstra

[wolf441]

Hal Chase
Ben Chapman
Joey Belle

[Northviewcats]

If you take into consideration players that were talented enough to make the Hall of Fame but their inner demons got in the way I would nominate:

Dwight Gooden
Darryl Strawberry
Hank Thompson

Denny McLain has also been mentioned. What he did to the retirement fund at Peet Packing Company was pretty low.

[jdeptula]

3 Black Sox:

Chick Gandil
Eddie Cicotte
Lefty Williams

I watched Eight Men Out the Other Day

[slipk1068]

Charles Comiskey has to be a first ballot scoundrel. No way Cicotte should be nominated.

Cap Anson
Hal Chase
Kennesaw Mountain Landis

[bcbgcbrcb]

How about Mike Scott and his famous "cutter" from c1986?

[Section103]

Gaylord Perry. He cheated so much and just smiled about it that it became publicly acceptable.

[jdeptula]

Really? He didn't throw Series games for cash?

Not trying to be snarky, just curious of your reasoning.

Agree on Comisky. Should have probably had him after Gandil.

Originally Posted by slipk1068

Charles Comiskey has to be a first ballot scoundrel. No way Cicotte should be nominated.

[conor912]

Ty Cobb
Marvin Miller
Alex Rodriguez

[rats60]

Instead of repeats, guys not listed yet

Speaker
Hornsby
All yet unlisted PED guys.

Let's list some more PED guys.

[The Nasty Nati]

Definitely Ty Cobb #1, then #2 Pete Rose, and assuming we are talking about "potential" HOFers #3 Barry Bonds.

I'm still hesitant to splurge money on a T206 Cobb because the guy was just a horrible person. I understand he lived in a different era, but he was extremely racist...much respect to Boss Schmidt, a guy who would literally knock Cobb out when he would make racist remarks and harassments.

[ALR-bishop]

Canseco
Rose (taxes)
Milton Bradley ( not the game)

Honorable mentions

Ed Bouche
Tawny Kittaen ( for assault of Chuck Finley)

[BicycleSpokes]

I nominate Bud Selig, for keeping his eyes closed during the PED era. If he had demonstrated better leadership, much of our current HOF predicaments might have been avoided altogether. He did a real disservice to the game he was supposed to be protecting, in my opinion.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[earlywynnfan]

Trying for new names, but Anson HAS to be an inaugural member!

Cap Anson
Carl Mays
Wade Boggs

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by jdeptula

Really? He didn't throw Series games for cash?

Not trying to be snarky, just curious of your reasoning.

Agree on Comiskey. Should have probably had him after Gandil.

I am not at all trying to be snarky either, but how is it possible to watch Eight Men Out and not view Cicotte as at least somewhat of a victim? The guy had a contract for a 10 grand bonus if he won 30 games. Comiskey ordered him benched after 29 games which prevented him from collecting that bonus which was a HUGE amount of money probably more than his yearly salary. And everyone was so Shocked when it happened.

Throwing games for money was not uncommon in a time when players were enslaved by The Reserve Clause. I am shocked that it wasn't a more common occurrence.

I would like to see Joe Jackson, Buck Weaver, and Cicotte enshrined in Cooperstown.

[Econteachert205]

Sleepy bill burns

Ben chapman

Steve Howe

[bundy462]

Gandil for his "ringleader" role in the Black Sox debacle
Rose for the gambling
Selig because when there are too many players to name one specifically for PEDs, you have to look at the guy at the top

[Fred]

From the PED-o-files:

Bonds
ARod
Braun
Palmiero
Clemens

I respect McGwire because he didn't lie (until he got caught) about his PED use. Those other boneheads listed are just a bunch of talente schmucks, Bonds in more ways than just his PED use/denial. Sadly, Bonds would have been HOF material without the PEDs.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Marty Bergen

Amazingly, I had never heard the story of Marty Bergen before. What a psycho!

Hard to believe he only has one vote so far. Since we're only allowed to nominate three scoundrels, I will do the next best thing.

I second your nomination of Marty Bergen.

What he did makes PED use, throwing games, or betting on baseball seem relatively minor, by comparison.

Best regards,

Eric

[Kenny Cole]

I'll go back to the early days for some new names

Jim Devlin
George Hall
Pat Tebeau

[Peter_Spaeth]

ARod Bonds Boggs.

[jdeptula]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

I am not at all trying to be snarky either, but how is it possible to watch Eight Men Out and not view Cicotte as at least somewhat of a victim? The guy had a contract for a 10 grand bonus if he won 30 games. Comiskey ordered him benched after 29 games which prevented him from collecting that bonus which was a HUGE amount of money probably more than his yearly salary. And everyone was so Shocked when it happened.

Throwing games for money was not uncommon in a time when players were enslaved by The Reserve Clause. I am shocked that it wasn't a more common occurrence.

I would like to see Joe Jackson, Buck Weaver, and Cicotte enshrined in Cooperstown.

You make a valid point. It just seemed to me that Cicotte and Williams did most of the "heavy lifting", so to speak, when it came to throwing the games. You could leave out any of the other 6 guys and still lose 5 games. With those 2 playing their best, Chicago likely wins regardless.

I would also like to see Jackson in the Hof. Never really thought of Cicotte in that way, but I see where you're coming from.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by BicycleSpokes

I nominate Bud Selig, for keeping his eyes closed during the PED era. If he had demonstrated better leadership, much of our current HOF predicaments might have been avoided altogether. He did a real disservice to the game he was supposed to be protecting, in my opinion.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Don't forget Donald Fehr who did everything he could to block testing and keep cheaters from being exposed.

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by Fred

From the PED-o-files:

Sadly, Bonds would have been HOF material without the PEDs.

He is still HOF material.

[mattsey9]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

I am not at all trying to be snarky either, but how is it possible to watch Eight Men Out and not view Cicotte as at least somewhat of a victim? The guy had a contract for a 10 grand bonus if he won 30 games. Comiskey ordered him benched after 29 games which prevented him from collecting that bonus which was a HUGE amount of money probably more than his yearly salary. And everyone was so Shocked when it happened.

Throwing games for money was not uncommon in a time when players were enslaved by The Reserve Clause. I am shocked that it wasn't a more common occurrence.

I would like to see Joe Jackson, Buck Weaver, and Cicotte enshrined in Cooperstown.

Throwing games for money was unfortunately all too common in this era. However, current scholarship reveals that the Cicotte 10K bonus story we've all heard isn't based in fact. There was no clause in Cicotte's pact rewarding him for 30 wins, and it seems that the player himself begged off duty to return home to rest his weary arm.

In fact, Cheapskate Comiskey doubled the pay of Cicotte and Lefty Williams for 1920.

[sniffy5]

I don't think McGwire or Sosa are hof material. Without their shameless steroid use, and in Mcgwire's case, offensively shameless, when he hugs proudly hugs Maris' sons moments after stealing their father's well-earned legacy by so obviously cheating to attain that record, McGwire and Sosa are nothing special. I even think McGwire had a season hitting below the Mendoza line. Yeah, the hall is full of guys like that... But what I really wonder is how we would view Bonds and Clemens had they not been, and presumably still are, incredible a**holes. Clemens had an ongoing relationship with a 10th grade girl when he was a married man of 30. She has since committed suicide. How do you sleep at night Roger? I'm sure he sleeps very well, which tells us all we need to know about Roger Clemens. And if 1/10 of what "Game of Shadows" is true about Bonds, then he has a personality disorder that borders on psychotic. Yet, if those two dudes had happened to be nicer, humbler, more likable, I wonder if things would be different for them going forward..??

[iwantitiwinit]

Arod
Arod
Arod

[EvilKing00]

Anson
Cobb
Canseco
Marty Bergen

[dgo71]

Marty Bergen
Chad Curtis
Manny Ramirez

[quinnsryche]

Bonds
Clemens
Sosa
McGwire

Miserable, cheatin' SOB's
Hate all 4 of them and all the other juiced up scum (Palmiero, Canseco, Caminiti etc)

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by quinnsryche

Bonds
Clemens
Sosa
McGwire

Miserable, cheatin' SOB's
Hate all 4 of them and all the other juiced up scum (Palmiero, Canseco, Caminiti etc)

Caminiti's dead, so you can probably lose your hate for him now.

[D.P.Johnson]

Juan Marichal for the Johnny Roseboro incident.
Pete Rose for the Ray Fosse incident.
David Justice for the Halle Berry incident.

[drmondobueno]

Bonds
Piazza
McGwire

Sosa
Clemens
Caminiti


OK, that s six. So I vote once for me and once for my son, who knows way too much about Steroid era ballplayers after playing the last 20 years in local weekend beer leagues with multiple pro ballplayers, including Canseco.

[Kenny Cole]

I don't really view Caminiti as a scoundrel. I just think his story is incredibly sad and a tragic and awful waste of a life.

[Texxxx]

Julio Machado
Ugueth Urbina
Mel Hall

[AJR]

I don't understand why Ty Cobb is on so many scoundrel lists. Yesterday in ESPN they also made a reference to Cobb being a dishonest player and frankly I need to stand up for good old Ty...

While he may have been gruff, mean, bigoted, rough and cruel as a man he never was a cheat!

It seems arbitrary to place him alongside the likes of Hal Chase or Barry Bonds both of whom actually cheated in different ways.

The Hall should be about baseball accomplishments, not being a nice guy. For that reason, Cobb was the first man inducted into the hall out voting, Ruth, Wagner, Johnson, Matthewson and the like.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by AJR

I don't understand why Ty Cobb is on so many scoundrel lists. Yesterday in ESPN they also made a reference to Cobb being a dishonest player and frankly I need to stand up for good old Ty...

While he may have been gruff, mean, bigoted, rough and cruel as a man he never was a cheat!

It seems arbitrary to place him alongside the likes of Hal Chase or Barry Binds both of whom actually cheated in different ways.

The Hall should be about baseball accomplishments, not being a nice guy. For that reason, Cobb was the first man inducted into the hall out voting, Ruth, Wagner, Johnson, Matthewson and the like.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

It's not The Cheat HOF, it's The Scoundrel HOF

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by Texxxx

Julio Machado
Ugueth Urbina
Mel Hall

Good call on Hall and Machado! Can I change one of my three to Chad Curtis?

[frankbmd]

56 scoundrels have been nominated so far. The list will be added and updated in the first post.

[Chris Counts]

With great pleasure, I nominate Bud Selig.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by mattsey9

Throwing games for money was unfortunately all too common in this era. However, current scholarship reveals that the Cicotte 10K bonus story we've all heard isn't based in fact. There was no clause in Cicotte's pact rewarding him for 30 wins, and it seems that the player himself begged off duty to return home to rest his weary arm.

In fact, Cheapskate Comiskey doubled the pay of Cicotte and Lefty Williams for 1920.

Not to mention Cicotte had two shots at #30 and blew both.