Questions on E121's

[obcbobd]

I've been collecting the E121 series of 80 and 120 for a couple of years. One thing I've noticed is people touting a specific card as a tough common and charging a premium . I looked at my 2011 SCD Vintage guide and noticed very few non-HOFers with a premium. All other cards have a common price including many that seem to me should carry a premium, for example Duffy Lewis. Looking through some of my older books I see many more cards identified as a premium. I've looked through a 1981, 1992, 2011 and 2013 price guides and have comprised a list of cards identified in one or more of the books as a premium. I'd be very interested in people's comments. Are all these cards deserving of a premium? Are any missing?


thanks in advance.

Bob Donaldson

E121 Series of 80
Jake Daubert
Heinie Groh
Bill Killifer (Incorrectname.) (1981 also)
Bill Killefer (Correctname.) (1981 also)
Duffy Lewis
Carl May (Mays)
Carl Mays (Correct name.)
Emil Muesel (Photo is LouDeVormer.)
R. Meusel
Roger Peckinbaugh (Incorrect name.) (1981 also)
Roger Peckinpaugh (Correct name.) (1981 also)
Walter Pipp
Ferd Schupp (Namecorrect.) (1981 also)
Hank Severeid
W. Wambsganss (Photoactually Fred Coumbe.)
Fred Williams
Joe Wood


The following carried a small (50 cents) premium in the 1981 Book but not in any of the more recent books
Charles Deal (Darkuniform.)
Charles Deal (Whiteuniform.)
"Slim" Sallee (Gloveshowing.)
"Slim" Sallee (No gloveshowing.)
"Pat" Shea
Fred Toney (Trees inbackground.)
Fred Toney (No trees.)
Jim Vaughn (Dark hat.)
Jim Vaughn (White hat.)

E121 Series of 120
Carlson L. Bigbee
Corson L. Bigbee
Chas. Grimm
Walter Holke Portrait
Carl Mays
R. Meusel
Earl Neale
Chas. O'Leary
Wally Pipp
Fred Schupp
Milton Stock

[kmac32]

Some cards are definitely tougher than others especially when it comes to New York commons with rare backs. There were a huge group that sold in July on Ebay and some of the prices were crazy. Fun to collect but expensive.

[Brian Van Horn]

Waiting for Rhett to chime in.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Waiting for Rhett to chime in.

Yes, Rhett has studied them more than anyone else I know....

[VoodooChild]

Bob,

I've been collecting the E121-80 set for a couple of years now. Here's some info that I have (it's been provided to me from some board member experts).

These are cards where only one or a few known examples exist so they obviously can go for crazy prices when they do surface for sale:
Frank Baker (not J. Franklin Baker)
Alexander Gaston
Lee Meadows
Chas. O'Leary
Tom Rogers

These are cards of just Yankee and Giants players that exist with with only Type 2 and Type 3 backs. They can carry pretty big premiums:
Cecil Causey
"Rip" Collins
"Phil" Douglas
William Fewster
Frank Frisch
"Mike" Gonzalez
Harry Harper
Waite Hoyt
Miller Huggins
Carl May (Name Misspelled)
M.J. McNally
Emil Muesel
R. Meusel
Elmer Miller
Arthur Nehf
Roger Peckinpaugh (Correct Name)
Jack Quinn
John Rawlings
Robert Roth
George Ruth
"Bill" Ryan
"Slim" Sallee (Glove Shows)
"Slim" Sallee (No Glove Shows)
Robert Shawkey
"Pat" Shea
Earl Smith
Frank Snyder
Aaron Ward

These cards are not as rare but can still carry a premium:
Johnny Evers (Manager)
Eddie Foster
Walter Holke (Throwing)
Walter Johnson (Hands at Chest)
Duffy Lewis
Carl Mays
Roger Peckinbaugh (Incorrect Name)
Jeff Pfeffer (Brooklyn)
Fred Toney (Trees in Background)
Fred Toney (No Trees in Background)
Bob Veach (Arms Crossed)

These are cards where their existence is questionable in the E121-80 set:
G.C. Alexander (Arms Above Head)
Bill Killifer (Incorrect Last Name - not Killefer)
Ed Roush - position is LF (not CF)
Fred Schupp (Incorrect First Name - not Ferd)
Pat Shea (not "Pat" in quotations)

[brianp-beme]

Bob,

And here is some info on the E121 series of 120, which is fifty times more straightforward:

Corson L Bigbee - does not exist
Chas. O'Leary - does not exist
Walter Pipp - does not exist
Fred Schupp - does not exist
Milton Stock - does not exist

The Grimm, Mays, R.Meusel and Neale would carry varying premiums.

The Carlson L. Bigbee and Walter Holke portrait far as I know carry no premium.

A couple of cards that are tougher to come by but not necessarily identified in the catalogues as such are the Whitted - Brooklyn and the Toporcer correct and Topocer incorrect spelling...not sure which is considered more difficult.

There are a bunch of cards listed in the SCD catalogue (as of 2009 edition) that probably don't exist, such as George Sisler throwing, Walter Holke throwing, "Hy" Myers, Ferd Schupp, Tris Speaker large projection, Babe Ruth holding bird, and Babe Ruth three pictures.

Brian

[old-baseball]

The quick answer to your original question is that the "Guide" is incorrect in pricing and has been for as long as I can remember. Jason is basically on point with his list with one exception. In the very top list is also a Joe Wood card that has the position listed as "F." rather than "R. F.". If you don't bid on one of the scarce listed cards because it's gone past what the guide says it should sell for, you'll certainly miss out and may not see the card again for 5-10 years.

There's also many cards that have different fonts in names / positions / teams on the front. None of these are listed in the price guide. The best resource is to search back through the many E121 threads that you'll find here.

Here's several you need to keep a sharp eye out for:

[kmac32]

Nice cards Kevin

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by VoodooChild

Bob,

I've been collecting the E121-80 set for a couple of years now. Here's some info that I have (it's been provided to me from some board member experts).

These are cards where only one or a few known examples exist so they obviously can go for crazy prices when they do surface for sale:
Frank Baker (not J. Franklin Baker)
Alexander Gaston
Lee Meadows
Chas. O'Leary
Tom Rogers

These are cards of just Yankee and Giants players that exist with with only Type 2 and Type 3 backs. They can carry pretty big premiums:
Cecil Causey
"Rip" Collins
"Phil" Douglas
William Fewster
Frank Frisch
"Mike" Gonzalez
Harry Harper
Waite Hoyt
Miller Huggins
Carl May (Name Misspelled)
M.J. McNally
Emil Muesel
R. Meusel
Elmer Miller
Arthur Nehf
Roger Peckinpaugh (Correct Name)
Jack Quinn
John Rawlings
Robert Roth
George Ruth
"Bill" Ryan
"Slim" Sallee (Glove Shows)
"Slim" Sallee (No Glove Shows)
Robert Shawkey
"Pat" Shea
Earl Smith
Frank Snyder
Aaron Ward

These cards are not as rare but can still carry a premium:
Johnny Evers (Manager)
Eddie Foster
Walter Holke (Throwing)
Walter Johnson (Hands at Chest)
Duffy Lewis
Carl Mays
Roger Peckinbaugh (Incorrect Name)
Jeff Pfeffer (Brooklyn)
Fred Toney (Trees in Background)
Fred Toney (No Trees in Background)
Bob Veach (Arms Crossed)

These are cards where their existence is questionable in the E121-80 set:
G.C. Alexander (Arms Above Head)
Bill Killifer (Incorrect Last Name - not Killefer)
Ed Roush - position is LF (not CF)
Fred Schupp (Incorrect First Name - not Ferd)
Pat Shea (not "Pat" in quotations)

I echo what everyone else has said, some really tough cards in this series, although the rarity of the card doesn't directly translate to astronomic price levels as there are less people pursuing the set, even though to me (and others) it is THE 1920's caramel set as the E120 set is too drab even though it is more extensive as far as the number of subjects there are no real rarities. I agree that the Joe Wood "F." should be on the short list of extreme rarities (I have seen only 2 in the past 10 years but they may in fact be the same card seen at two different times as only 1 is currently confirmed), perhaps along with the George Dauss w/ Serif font name on front (only one confirmed copy--but I only noticed this card within the past year or so so there may be more out there).

Jason has a very nice list above though the following should be adjusted...
-Only the Slim Sallee with the backround (not the E135 image) is found with the rare backs.
-The Carl "May" card does not have the rare backs but should be on the next list with the tougher cards.


As far as the E121 Series of 120 cards are concerned, they are MUCH more straightforward but there are still some tougher to find cards, usually they are variations. I have found the following two cards to be the toughest ones to find (about equally so)...
-John Rawlings (Utl.) -the 2B. position version is common
-George Whitted (Brooklyn) -the Pittsburgh version is common

To a little lesser extent (but still very tough to find) is the George "Topocer" (ERROR) card, I have found the corrected George "Toporcer" card to be easier.

[obcbobd]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Bob,

And here is some info on the E121 series of 120, which is fifty times more straightforward:

Corson L Bigbee - does not exist
Chas. O'Leary - does not exist
Walter Pipp - does not exist
Fred Schupp - does not exist
Milton Stock - does not exist

The Grimm, Mays, R.Meusel and Neale would carry varying premiums.

The Carlson L. Bigbee and Walter Holke portrait far as I know carry no premium.

A couple of cards that are tougher to come by but not necessarily identified in the catalogues as such are the Whitted - Brooklyn and the Toporcer correct and Topocer incorrect spelling...not sure which is considered more difficult.

There are a bunch of cards listed in the SCD catalogue (as of 2009 edition) that probably don't exist, such as George Sisler throwing, Walter Holke throwing, "Hy" Myers, Ferd Schupp, Tris Speaker large projection, Babe Ruth holding bird, and Babe Ruth three pictures.

Brian

Brian ,

In your last paragraph are you still referring to series of 120? I've seen the two Ruth's in series of 120, but not 80

thanks

Bob

[brianp-beme]

Hi Bob,

My post pertains strictly to the 120 series (others certainly covered the 80 series thoroughly). I failed to clarify which Ruth cards that have been catalogued for years that probably do not exist. The Photo montage, holding bird and holding ball images exist in the series of 120, but only with his first name in parenthesis ("Babe"). The non-parenthesis version (Babe) for both the photo montage and holding bird versions, as seen in the established listings, most likely do not exist. Sorry for not being very clear.

Brian

[obcbobd]

Thanks to all for the responses. I am going to concentrate on the basic series of 120 set (no variations) as I already have about 90 of them.

Thanks

Bob