DBacks- dirty play against McCutchen

[Matthew80]

So Pittsburgh- honest mistake or otherwise- plunks Goldschmidt, taking him out for the season. AZ comes back and drills a fastball into McCutchen's back, and he falls like a video game WWII-type casualty. Now, news is out he's out for a month, although there's no direct link between the plunking and injury (although it's suspicious, to say the least).

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-bi...223308151.html

Just curious to hear others' thoughts on the brand of baseball they have in AZ. I will say that it belongs in AZ if it belong anywhere. Nice to see a little Wild left in the West.

I'm of mixed opinion. I feel very bad for McCutchen, a class act completely innocent of any wrongdoing (save wearing a Pittsburgh jersey, that is), but I like that the word's out you better not pitch TOO inside on AZ. They don't pull punches.

Again, just interested to hear the thoughts of other 54-ers.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by Matthew80

So Pittsburgh- honest mistake or otherwise- plunks Goldschmidt, taking him out for the season. AZ comes back and drills a fastball into McCutchen's back, and he falls like a video game WWII-type casualty. Now, news is out he's out for a month, although there's no direct link between the plunking and injury (although it's suspicious, to say the least).

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-bi...223308151.html

Just curious to hear others' thoughts on the brand of baseball they have in AZ. I will say that it belongs in AZ if it belong anywhere. Nice to see a little Wild left in the West.

I'm of mixed opinion. I feel very bad for McCutchen, a class act completely innocent of any wrongdoing (save wearing a Pittsburgh jersey, that is), but I like that the word's out you better not pitch TOO inside on AZ. They don't pull punches.

Again, just interested to hear the thoughts of other 54-ers.

I watched this play a few times. At first I thought it was out of line but my opinion changed. Goldschmidt was the DBacks best player and is out for the season. I say its just part of the game. McCutchen looked pissed but unsurprised.

[the 'stache]

I think the whole thing is silly. "You hit my best player, so I'm going to pop you best player." It all smacks of recess in grade school. Completely juvenile.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I think the whole thing is silly. "You hit my best player, so I'm going to pop you best player." It all smacks of recess in grade school. Completely juvenile.

When grown men play a child's game juvenile things are bound to happen.

[Mountaineer1999]

I'm the biggest Pirates fan alive so I am sure I come at this a little biased. That said, Arizona was out of line as always.
The pitch to Goldschmidt ran up and in from a horrible pitcher, Ernesto Frieri. It was no way intentional........ the lead was 8 to 3 I think but if it were 8-8 the Diamondbacks would have reacted the same way so they need to quit using that excuse. The Douchebacks wait until the 9th inning of a blowout loss and put a 95 MPH fastball in McCutchens back. The pitch came after the count had run to 2-0 and the 2nd pitch was a slider away.
Hit someone and get it over with .... and maybe we accept it. From Goldschmidt's reaction... I dont think he wanted McCuthen hit.

[steve B]

Just from reading the articles it seems like Goldschmidt was hit late in a tie game? Like bottom of the 9th?

If there's a spot where you can be fairly sure it's not intentional that would have to be it.

I'm all for the old fashioned "don't lean over MY plate" sort of pitching, even the "don't showboat so much after a HR" message pitches are ok.

But going after an uninvolved player towards the end of the next game? Just doesn't seem right.
If they'd thrown at the reliever the next time they saw him, sure. Maybe even throwing at an equivalent player in the first three innings if there was a good chance you wouldn't see that reliever again.

Steve B

[nolemmings]

Goldy was hit with one out and nobody on in the bottom of the ninth of a 9-4 loss. I was "lucky" enough to have been there. His AB was meaningless due to a bullpen explosion that allowed a 4-4 tie to get out of hand; ironically, he had been given the night off but entered in the 9th in a double switch.

I doubt it was intentional, but it knocked out the Dbacks' best player for the season. If the message was to let the Pirates know not to throw inside unless you can control it, then I would say the message was received. If you don't believe in such messages then fine, I get it, but it has been going on in baseball for a long time and I would not look for it to end soon. BTW, it was the exact time to send that message-- hit the equivalent player when the game is not on the line and when you had an open base. Hit him in a relatively safe spot--the butt is preferred but not where you might break a bone.

Oh and by the way, guess who leads MLB in hitting batters this season-- the Pirates by a large margin with 61-- the next closest is 49. They have almost twice as many as Arizona (32). So Pirates fans, prepare to have your players get plunked on a regular basis if your staff is doing more of the same, and maybe think twice before starting the name calling.

[chaddurbin]

bush league by AZ. the gm and manager would rather settle scores than actually winning games...lol. thanks for not being a threat in the nl west for the next 4-5 years there guys if this philosophy keeps up in the organization.

[nolemmings]

Care to elaborate Quan?

[steve B]

Thanks for clarifying. The articles certainly didn't.

It makes a lot more sense all around that way.
I am in favor of old time baseball stuff, as long as it makes sense. The way the articles had it it looked like retaliation for an accident rather than a message about coming too far in without good control in a situation where it's not really needed.

I do have to say the worst I saw was Gaston ordering some young pitcher to hit a batter, continuing to order it after he failed 2-3 times, then leaving the rattled kid in to take a huge beating since he couldn't pitch anymore. The pitcher was actually coming off the mound gesturing that he wanted out and had no idea what was going on. And Gaston turned away from the field and ignored him the whole time. The announcers were horrified, even the umpire kept looking into the dugout but not actually interfering. And I think the other team actually laid off and ended the inning after scoring a bunch of runs.

Steve B

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Goldy was hit with one out and nobody on in the bottom of the ninth of a 9-4 loss. I was "lucky" enough to have been there. His AB was meaningless due to a bullpen explosion that allowed a 4-4 tie to get out of hand; ironically, he had been given the night off but entered in the 9th in a double switch.

I doubt it was intentional, but it knocked out the Dbacks' best player for the season. If the message was to let the Pirates know not to throw inside unless you can control it, then I would say the message was received. If you don't believe in such messages then fine, I get it, but it has been going on in baseball for a long time and I would not look for it to end soon. BTW, it was the exact time to send that message-- hit the equivalent player when the game is not on the line and when you had an open base. Hit him in a relatively safe spot--the butt is preferred but not where you might break a bone.

Oh and by the way, guess who leads MLB in hitting batters this season-- the Pirates by a large margin with 61-- the next closest is 49. They have almost twice as many as Arizona (32). So Pirates fans, prepare to have your players get plunked on a regular basis if your staff is doing more of the same, and maybe think twice before starting the name calling.

[Matthew80]

Ultimately, Pittsburgh is responsible for players they plunk, accident or not. Frieri can't control his pitches (trust me, I'm an Angels fan). Pittsburgh knew this could happen, but they evidently felt it was worth gambling knowing they could hurt an AZ batter... Snake eyes... If you're a MLB-er, you should really be able to avoid hitting someone, even if that means you can't throw certain pitches and/or in certain locations on the plate.

Never pull your punches in war, baseball included.

[nolemmings]

By the way, I couldn't help but notice this newspaper headline just ten days before Goldschmidt got hit: "Dodgers’ Justin Turner airs concerns after another beanball war, loss to Pirates".
http://www.dailynews.com/sports/2014...oss-to-pirates

In it the author reports:

Turner’s left elbow was struck by a 97-mph fastball from Pittsburgh Pirates pitcher Justin Wilson in the seventh inning Tuesday. Two Pirates batters were also hit by pitches in the Dodgers’ 12-7 loss.

This, after four different players were hit by pitches over the weekend in St. Louis. Hanley Ramirez and Yasiel Puig still haven’t played since being drilled and left with swollen left hands.

Of course, none of these involved those dirty Diamondbacks.

He goes on to say that McCutchen had been hit earlier--by a sinker no less--to load the bases, and suggests the obvious, that it was not intentional. Nonetheless,

Wilson threw two inside pitches to Turner to start the seventh inning, the second one hitting Turner’s elbow guard. In his postgame comments to reporters, Pirates manager Clint Hurdle suggested that Wilson was merely trying to pitch hard inside.

Home plate umpire Toby Basner didn’t buy it. He ejected Wilson, warned both benches, then ejected Hurdle for arguing.

So again Pirates fans, say hello to Mrs. Kettle, and look in the mirror before taking shots at other teams.

[clydepepper]

I pitched in high school, college, and semi-pro and never liked this part of the game...as a lefty, I hit enough people without trying to.

When they did get hit, not only did they know it was accidental, they had more pressing things to think about than coming after me.

I never participated in any bean-ball 'wars', nor was I ever asked to.

Toward the end of what would be called my career, I had much better control and probably could have hit someone on purpose, but make it look like an accident, but, to me, it was just adding another baserunner...and who needs that.

I remember when Pendleton stalked off the field in the middle of an inning when a pitcher who only got to pitch about once a month, refused to retaliate for Deion Sanders being hit.

The team captain leaving the field in the middle of an inning!? I lost all respect for Pendleton that day.

[ooo-ribay]

There's a reason they're known as the D-Bags.

[nolemmings]

Really? What's that? Anything constructive to offer, or do you just like to run your mouth?

[D. Bergin]

AZ's best player is out for an extended period of time. McCutchen was plunked in the back.

Pretty silly the abuse the Diamondbacks and Gibson gets, considering they are at the bottom of the league in hit batters, and the Pirates are at the top. You pitch inside and plunk guys, put them on the disabled list, you're going to get plunked back. Just rest assured that when it's actually done on purpose there seems to be a much less chance of injury in the process.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Really? What's that? Anything constructive to offer, or do you just like to run your mouth?

Buck Showalter
Fraudulent fan base
MLB (i.e. Bud Selig) co-signing a loan to let them buy the 2001 WS
Tony LaRussa

Signed,
Giants' fan

[nolemmings]

Thanks Dave. Not that it matters much, but Gibson had been tossed from the game more than 6 innings before McCutchen was hbp. It is surely possible he still pulled the strings from the clubhouse two hours later and he would man up and take responsibility either way, but I doubt he gave Delgado any direct orders. I would bet that more than one guy in that dugout wanted some retribution– maybe Aaron Hill, who last year during Pittsburgh’s only trip to AZ also had his hand broken by a Pirate reliever and missed three months of the season. As you noted (and did I), Pirates pitchers are almost in a league of their own when it comes to hitting opponents.

Also FWIW, I heard on one of the non-local broadcasts or maybe read it on a national sports website that the action taken against McCutchen was consistent with the philosophy that Tony LaRussa maintains about protecting his players. I don’t know if I believe it simply because I never gave it much thought, but if you google “Larussa bean ball” I think you’ll find some interesting quotes and accusations over the years. So for those who consistently praise Saint Anthony– now in charge of Diamondback baseball operations–as a baseball savant, and who bash Gibby as a rogue brute, you may find that their approaches on this issue are one and the same.

[nolemmings]

Buck Showalter
Fraudulent fan base
MLB (i.e. Bud Selig) co-signing a loan to let them buy the 2001 WS
Tony LaRussa

Signed,
Giants' fan

Your remarks are indicative of your allegiance and your level of intelligence is duly noted.

[Mountaineer1999]

The McCutchen hbp in the 9th inning was uncalled for. Hit him early. Don't throw a 1-0 slider in the 9th then bean the guy on the next pitch. In this case the DBacks were just wrong.

[nolemmings]

Deleted. Feel like the AFLAC duck with Yogi sitting in the barber chair.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Thanks Dave. Not that it matters much, but Gibson had been tossed from the game more than 6 innings before McCutchen was hbp. It is surely possible he still pulled the strings from the clubhouse two hours later and he would man up and take responsibility either way, but I doubt he gave Delgado any direct orders. I would bet that more than one guy in that dugout wanted some retribution– maybe Aaron Hill, who last year during Pittsburgh’s only trip to AZ also had his hand broken by a Pirate reliever and missed three months of the season. As you noted (and did I), Pirates pitchers are almost in a league of their own when it comes to hitting opponents.

Also FWIW, I heard on one of the non-local broadcasts or maybe read it on a national sports website that the action taken against McCutchen was consistent with the philosophy that Tony LaRussa maintains about protecting his players. I don’t know if I believe it simply because I never gave it much thought, but if you google “Larussa bean ball” I think you’ll find some interesting quotes and accusations over the years. So for those who consistently praise Saint Anthony– now in charge of Diamondback baseball operations–as a baseball savant, and who bash Gibby as a rogue brute, you may find that their approaches on this issue are one and the same.

It's kind of funny. There was a huge hit-piece on Grantland.com about this. The author of the piece destroyed Kirk Gibson and Kevin Towers, while Tony Larussa's name was not brought up a single time.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Your remarks are indicative of your allegiance and your level of intelligence is duly noted.

"Can't we all just get along?" - Rodney King

"Don't sweat the petty stuff & don't pet the sweaty stuff." - George Carlin

[nolemmings]

What do you mean? I complimented him on his love for his team and feigned to understand what the hell he was talking about.

[chaddurbin]

todd,

i'm sure you're aware of all those kevin towers' talk last offseason about wanting his pitchers to hit more batters etc in retaliation and supposedly firing charles nagy because of it. they basically dumped upton and bauer because they didn't fit gibson's grittiness style. i'm guessing you're a d-backs fan but towers et al have become a national punchline and i'm still amazed he has a job....him and amaro in philly.

[nolemmings]

Hi Quan, it's been along time. I hear family life keeps you busy--I hope all is well. You should know that your constant chiding about my affinity for the black and white sets led me to finally buy some colorful lithographic cards. Hey, they're not bad. Still can't get me to bite on the shiny stuff or the autographs though.

Towers has been on his way out for at l east two months now, which makes any notion that someone is following his orders even more ridiculous. As I said (or hinted at) above, however, I would not expect things to change under a LaRussa led regime, and although I'm no fan, he has had his share of success.

Upton was traded because he was seen as aloof, more interested in self than team and known to disappear when needed most. Towers blew it in not getting more for him, but most Dback fans were not upset to see him go (while at the same time wishing him well, as he is not a bad guy). Bauer was considered a head case--someone who refused coaching and insisted that his own training and preparation regimen must be followed. Time will tell and again, my beef is more that they got not much in return. Eaton was widely disliked in the clubhouse. I will concede that Towers showed little patience before making moves on some of these, and that his moves have not been good, but again, he's out the door. {He is also incapable of assembling a major league outfield}

The focus on them being dirty though is ridiculously overblown, as I have set out above. I have no major issue going at McCutchen after Goldy went down for the year (he would have pushed 60 doubles this season), and again point out all of the injuries due to HBP and all the beanballs and ask you to show me how Arizona is any kind of major culprit compared to everyone else. They hit Braun and McCutchen, and of course we could get into that incident last year in LA. What else ya got?

[3-2-count]

This unwritten rule has been in the game far before I was around and it's still present today. All one needs to do is watch ESPN every night and you'll see it. To draw the conclusion that the Diamondbacks are any more dirtier than the next guy is absurd.

[Mountaineer1999]

I'm not sure if they are any more dirty than anyone else. I just know on this occasion they were wrong, they went about the business of it wrong. I think other teams deserve a ball in the ribs at times too..... this time was not the case. What the Hell was Delfado doing, trying to strike him out first and when that inept attpemt failed he drills him?
Fair or not , the D-Backs are getting a reputation around baseball.

http://www.cbssports.com/general/wri.../greggdoyelcbs

[nolemmings]

I will answer that but first let me point out that when a team wants to send a message as was the case with the Diamondbacks to Pittsburgh, it will often wait for an appropriate time rather than just jump at the first opportunity. It has been this way forever. Frank Robinson used to hold grudges for years. Zach Greinke hit Carlos Quentin early last year and watched him charge the mound–seems the two have been feuding for years.

Here the message was sent in a way that was least damaging to the game itself, which is how it should be and how it has often been handled over the years. Pittsburgh was ahead 5-1 with runners on second and third, no outs, and their best hitter at bat. The game was arguably still within reach, although it was the 9th inning. The baseball play in that situation, or certainly one of them, is to give McCutchen the open base to set up a double play or at least a force at any base. Had they intentionally walked him for that purpose no one would have been surprised. Still, that’s another potential run on base, so it has its downside. Thus, what do you do and what have you seen done hundreds of times every season? You pitch around him and hope he swings at a bad pitch or two and gets himself out. Thus the slider down and away, but McCutchen didn’t bite. Now the count is 2-0– a hitter's count to a great hitter. How many times have you seen the pitcher/catcher just give up at that point and concede the intentional walk? Here I can almost guarantee you at that point the decision was made that what the hell, we’re putting him on anyway, let’s just drill him and get our message across at the same time.

The same thing happened in June with Ryan Braun and Milwaukee, although the score was closer and it was the 7th inning. Same baserunner situation, no outs and a #3 hitter at bat. Count went 1-0 and then instead of walking Braun they drilled him. Next guy hit a grand slam and Arizona lost. Idiot media claimed that Gibby let a grudge get in the way of the team’s chances, but it would have made absolutely no difference had he walked Braun instead- it was the percentage baseball move to put him on– and he got to get his message across as well while adding no risk to his team's chances. Those are the two incidents that everyone uses to claim the Dbacks are dirty, etc.

It is so ridiculous to claim that it might have been all right had McCutchen just been hit right away. Really? Hit him in the top of the first and it would not have hurt as much? Can you imagine if he left the game in the first and the Pirates lost a close one, with their best hitter deprived of 4 ABs? How the Dbacks would then be accused of having to play dirty to win?

And as far as drilling him in the back, check video of almost any beanball and see where they aim and where it lands– the back is considered one of the “safest” places, after the butt, which Delgado’s pitch didn’t miss by that much. It used to be the ribs, but these guys throw so hard now that broken rather than bruised ribs are too strong a possibility.

I along with everyone in AZ is sorry McCutchen is injured, but I understand the decisions that were made. They are made pretty much every week by one team or another, and Arizona is no different and certainly not so villainous as they are made out to be.

[Mountaineer1999]

Do you really think they should have drilled McCutchen?

[effe]

.